Once that cheque is cashed and the free service is done, it means apart from consumables like 2 tyres there will be no other expense incurred in 3 yrs of ownership...
2.0 TFSI Known Oil Consumption problem - 2015 ongoing thread (2009-2011 models)
- Thread starter Tfsi gone
- Start date
And this is exactly what happened to mine! Piston ring rebuild done in November 2013 at £0 cost to owner, Cam chain tensioner went in March 2015 (mileage 96k) - repair cost was £1800 (local Indy) and luckily pistons & head were not damaged.
This is a picture of my not so straight inlet valves:
Ouch!
Just out of curiosity, do you know if the valves were cleaned when they did the rings? Just trying to gauge if that's just 18 months worth of deposits or more.
I'd guess probably not. No sign of the valves being removed in the Q5 rebuild timelapse.
@Joe90_guy - I have no idea as the rings were done prior to me owning the car, but as silentbrown says below, I doubt it if they were cleaned.
After following this thread I have been worried about the cam chain tensioner so I spoke to the mechanic who completed the rebuild on my car last August (happens to be an old school friend, so I had is number for hobbles!). He said that he replaced the tensioners with the updated version while he was completing the rebuild. As I said, the rebuild was done Aug 14'.
I'm not suggesting that this will be the case for everyone, but it could be worth finding out for peice of mind.
I'm not suggesting that this will be the case for everyone, but it could be worth finding out for peice of mind.
The car went in this morning for the first stage of the oil consumption. (Victoria Audi) The lady I dealt with was very nice and said she would fight my corner to try and get the car repaired for free. She agreed from the oil consumption that I am currently experiencing there is definitely an issue.
However, I have had 4 services, only 2 of them at Audi garages. The other two garages were independent and she did say that they would probably need to verify that they changed the oil using the correct oil. I am pretty sure they did as the two garages both claim to work within the guidelines of Audi warranty.
I'll keep you update, and let me know how you get on.
I've found something else on the internet that might be of interest to folks who are curious as to the cause of the TFSI oil consumption problem. Here's the linky....
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=407682
Now I should point out that this guy (Lucifier666) has a Seat Cupra 1.4TSI, not an Audi. Also he's doing a lot of mods to the engine to squeeze the last bit of oomph out of it and this probably doesn't apply to most people on this forum. However he has written a very detailed analysis of the problems he's seen with his TSI engine and some of this is gold dust!
He talks about the basic problem being with the pistons, not with the rings per se. The pistons are fundamentally engineered to be too weak and seem to have a tendency to crack in between the rings. It is this piston cracking that damages the rings and the bores. He also says the original high pressure fuel injectors leaked petrol into the cylinder when the engine was turned off. Not only would this cause fuel dilution, it would increase top ring wear when the engine was restarted as any residual oil in the ring pack would be washed away. He then tells how the narrow injector spray cone could effectively stop the spark plugs firing dumping yet more fuel into the sump. Apparently both the PCV system and ECU software are also flawed when the original generation of these engines came out.
This guy and I are singing from the same hymn sheet on two things. First, this whole issue is horribly complex because you are dealing not with just one problem but several problems which interact. Second, he reckons that VAG have played down this issue as 'a bad batch of rings', when the truth is far more damning.
http://www.seatcupra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=407682
Now I should point out that this guy (Lucifier666) has a Seat Cupra 1.4TSI, not an Audi. Also he's doing a lot of mods to the engine to squeeze the last bit of oomph out of it and this probably doesn't apply to most people on this forum. However he has written a very detailed analysis of the problems he's seen with his TSI engine and some of this is gold dust!
He talks about the basic problem being with the pistons, not with the rings per se. The pistons are fundamentally engineered to be too weak and seem to have a tendency to crack in between the rings. It is this piston cracking that damages the rings and the bores. He also says the original high pressure fuel injectors leaked petrol into the cylinder when the engine was turned off. Not only would this cause fuel dilution, it would increase top ring wear when the engine was restarted as any residual oil in the ring pack would be washed away. He then tells how the narrow injector spray cone could effectively stop the spark plugs firing dumping yet more fuel into the sump. Apparently both the PCV system and ECU software are also flawed when the original generation of these engines came out.
This guy and I are singing from the same hymn sheet on two things. First, this whole issue is horribly complex because you are dealing not with just one problem but several problems which interact. Second, he reckons that VAG have played down this issue as 'a bad batch of rings', when the truth is far more damning.
Sounds entirely likely. I don't recall anyone from VAG actually saying it was a bad batch of rings, though : That's just been the first guess of most of the weekend engineers here, myself included.
If pistons were cracking in the 2.0 TFSI's. surely we'd be hearing about that and/or seeing photos? It does explain why the rebuild includes redesigned pistons and rods though.
Joe90_guy, remember these are entirely different engines, just so happens that they are both VAG f*** ups leading to customer cost. Yes it seems to be a piston design "error" that causes the issues with the 2.0TFSI engines, but that is as far as the comparison goes, I am still a bit concerned about my wife buying a 1.2TSI engine car as while I find it convenient to continue buying VAG products (have VCDS!!), I am still to be convinced that VAG are getting their act together and stopping these cheap design errors blighting our cars.
If you look at Page 2 of the Lucifer666 post, you'll see someone with a 1.2TSI had a cracked piston. However VAG will have sussed the problem by now and this won't occur with you wife's new car.
Although you're right in saying the Seat 1.4TSI engine is different, I suspect that this family of engines is more alike than you can imagine. I'd bet serious money that in true Teutonic style, there's just one group of engineers in VAG that designs pistons for every VAG engine and that every piston, regardless of size will be developed from the same mathematical model. Get the stress equations in the model wrong (like when you shift from MPI to GDI engines) and you will get duff pistons popping up all over the shop. I suspect VAG's dynamic simulation models for evacuating the crankcase also crashed and burned when they switched to GDI.
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My local Audi posted this on there website
Follow-up Statement – BBC Watchdog June 4 edition
Jun 10, 2015
The recent BBC Watchdog report has gone some way towards reassuring owners of 2.0-litre TFSI-powered Audi models who may be concerned about abnormal oil consumption, but one particular inaccuracy within it needs to be addressed.
The Watchdog team stated that Audi ‘has, for the first time, said it will consider paying for the repairs on cars that are out of warranty, and that includes reimbursing those who have already paid for the fix’. This isn’t accurate – Audi UK has an established, longstanding resolution process in place which applies to cars that are both inside and outside their warranty period. We have already resolved the majority of cases via our new car warranty, and we are now taking care of all outstanding cars that are brought to our attention. Following formal diagnosis, we apply a number of qualification criteria to determine if Audi will either cover the cost of any rectification work in full, or ask for a fair and reasonable customer contribution. The most important of these criteria is proof of consistent and complete servicing in accordance with the owner’s handbook.
Initially this process wasn’t implemented as uniformly as it should have been across our network, so at the beginning of the year we addressed this to ensure that all our Audi Centres are absolutely consistent in their approach. At the same time we made provision for owners of cars which qualify for full financial support from Audi to be reimbursed if they have previously contributed to this remedial work at an Audi Centre.
Follow-up Statement – BBC Watchdog June 4 edition
Jun 10, 2015
The recent BBC Watchdog report has gone some way towards reassuring owners of 2.0-litre TFSI-powered Audi models who may be concerned about abnormal oil consumption, but one particular inaccuracy within it needs to be addressed.
The Watchdog team stated that Audi ‘has, for the first time, said it will consider paying for the repairs on cars that are out of warranty, and that includes reimbursing those who have already paid for the fix’. This isn’t accurate – Audi UK has an established, longstanding resolution process in place which applies to cars that are both inside and outside their warranty period. We have already resolved the majority of cases via our new car warranty, and we are now taking care of all outstanding cars that are brought to our attention. Following formal diagnosis, we apply a number of qualification criteria to determine if Audi will either cover the cost of any rectification work in full, or ask for a fair and reasonable customer contribution. The most important of these criteria is proof of consistent and complete servicing in accordance with the owner’s handbook.
Initially this process wasn’t implemented as uniformly as it should have been across our network, so at the beginning of the year we addressed this to ensure that all our Audi Centres are absolutely consistent in their approach. At the same time we made provision for owners of cars which qualify for full financial support from Audi to be reimbursed if they have previously contributed to this remedial work at an Audi Centre.
This is a follow-up post to yesterday's 'Lucifer666' post but this time with pictures. Take a look at this...
https://1200cctsiengine.wordpress.com/other-cases-of-tsi-engines-defects/
The three pictures show damaged pistons from both VAG 1.2 & 1.4 FSI engines. The three pistons have all failed in an identical fashion in that part of the second and third piston land area has broken away from the piston. Do remember that it only looks detached once removed from the block. In situ, the broken bit will sort of be held in place by the rings.
In thirteen years of bashing up engines for a living, I've never seen this happen before. However I thought it over and I think I understand what's happening and how this is relevant to the Audi TFSIs.
Lucifer666 sort of had it right. This is almost certainly occurring as a result of pre-detonation. This I reckon is being caused by our old friend, fuel dilution. Fuel in the sump pulls base oil out of the engine oil when the fuel evaporates off. The oil is routed back to the cylinder via the PCV system. I don't know what the octane of base oil is but light naptha has a RON of about 66 and oil will be way lower than this. I could easily imagine oil has a negative octane number because it's so incombustible! So when the engine warms up, you could enter period where you're burning a lot of recycled fuel and oil along with 'normal' injected fuel. The aggregate octane of the mix is temporarily low and you could get some pre-combustion. This will almost certainly increase peak cylinder pressure. Now that pressure is partly 'carried' by the top ring both in terms of a downward force (which presses the bottom of the top ring against the top of the first land) and a sideways force (gas pressure on the inner surface of the ring forces it to splay and seal against the bore). The first land's mechanical integrity will be set to carry a normal level of force, not the higher force which results from pre-detonation. Now remember this force is on-off-on-off.. as the piston continually goes through its cycle. It's this on-off nature which will ultimately show up as stress induced cracking of the first land. If this sounds implausible, just consider the fate of the Comet 1 which fell out of the skies because of stress cracking caused by repeated pressurising and depressurising of the cabin.
Now I've trawled the internet and I can't find any evidence whatsoever of Audi TFSI 1.8L or 2.0L pistons breaking like the ones in the photographs but you only need one land crack to develop and you potentially unseal the cylinder and create a route for blowby to mess up the engine operation in a way that results in high oil consumption. Oddly enough, once you develop a crack, you create an escape route for the combustion gas which 'relieves' the higher pressures of pre-detonation such that further crack propagation stops.
Like all of my theories, this may or may not be true. Audi probably knows but aren't saying. However it sort of fits the facts and could explain the reason why Audi are swapping out pistons (to ones with higher mechanical integrity?) as well as new piston rings to overcome this problem.
https://1200cctsiengine.wordpress.com/other-cases-of-tsi-engines-defects/
The three pictures show damaged pistons from both VAG 1.2 & 1.4 FSI engines. The three pistons have all failed in an identical fashion in that part of the second and third piston land area has broken away from the piston. Do remember that it only looks detached once removed from the block. In situ, the broken bit will sort of be held in place by the rings.
In thirteen years of bashing up engines for a living, I've never seen this happen before. However I thought it over and I think I understand what's happening and how this is relevant to the Audi TFSIs.
Lucifer666 sort of had it right. This is almost certainly occurring as a result of pre-detonation. This I reckon is being caused by our old friend, fuel dilution. Fuel in the sump pulls base oil out of the engine oil when the fuel evaporates off. The oil is routed back to the cylinder via the PCV system. I don't know what the octane of base oil is but light naptha has a RON of about 66 and oil will be way lower than this. I could easily imagine oil has a negative octane number because it's so incombustible! So when the engine warms up, you could enter period where you're burning a lot of recycled fuel and oil along with 'normal' injected fuel. The aggregate octane of the mix is temporarily low and you could get some pre-combustion. This will almost certainly increase peak cylinder pressure. Now that pressure is partly 'carried' by the top ring both in terms of a downward force (which presses the bottom of the top ring against the top of the first land) and a sideways force (gas pressure on the inner surface of the ring forces it to splay and seal against the bore). The first land's mechanical integrity will be set to carry a normal level of force, not the higher force which results from pre-detonation. Now remember this force is on-off-on-off.. as the piston continually goes through its cycle. It's this on-off nature which will ultimately show up as stress induced cracking of the first land. If this sounds implausible, just consider the fate of the Comet 1 which fell out of the skies because of stress cracking caused by repeated pressurising and depressurising of the cabin.
Now I've trawled the internet and I can't find any evidence whatsoever of Audi TFSI 1.8L or 2.0L pistons breaking like the ones in the photographs but you only need one land crack to develop and you potentially unseal the cylinder and create a route for blowby to mess up the engine operation in a way that results in high oil consumption. Oddly enough, once you develop a crack, you create an escape route for the combustion gas which 'relieves' the higher pressures of pre-detonation such that further crack propagation stops.
Like all of my theories, this may or may not be true. Audi probably knows but aren't saying. However it sort of fits the facts and could explain the reason why Audi are swapping out pistons (to ones with higher mechanical integrity?) as well as new piston rings to overcome this problem.
Ouch, that's Definitely something to be aware of unfortunately mate! How come you didn't fight Audi UK to cover at least some of the cost? If that happens to mine dare I say, I will be fighting for a new engine!
I hope as jwash42 said above, they use new updated tensioners when completing the rebuild for all cars.. Otherwise this thread will hit 6 figures...
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I think the tensioners aren't normally replaced. I specifically asked for mine to be checked when the rebuild was done. They were fine and didn't need replacing.
sb, that's going to be another thing that will be worrying owners!
I'm hoping that this does not become another related problem!
I'm hoping that this does not become another related problem!
Yes. I asked Dr G on Pistonheads, who works for a home counties Audi 'indy' and is something of an audi guru. He said they'd had many cars with the oil consumption problem, but the timing chain issue was comparatively rare.
I hope so mate!
My car is 25 days away from the next service so I'm going to enquire again about the tensioner as well as ensuring the car has a major service. Free of charge of course...
I did email Audi to complain about the chain tensioner and they asked me which Audi centre my car was in and they would look into it.
However, at that stage my car was all ready in my local indy with it's front end and head removed.
The other thought here is that for Audi to have contributed towards the repair cost, my car would have to be repaired by them, and I bet the cost would have been twice the price of my indy, so probably a false economy.
How is the car running now mate?
Reason I ask is mine is quieter and smoother compared to before the rebuild was done.
Stu I can see why you left Audi! Iv spent a few hours today researching and looking at replacements but no
Merc comes close in looks and value! Yet... and Merc rear windows are weak
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I do like the look of the A Class AMG however at around £38K there's a lot of other choices to compare with...
Ryan hewitt
09' Audi A4 1.8TFSI S-Line. Ibis White
Morning guys,
So since I topped up my oil last (1ltr) I reset the mile counter and I've done 390miles and its asking for another litre.
I'm at Audi tomorrow at half 8 for a hell check and to start oil consumption test.
mine is a 1.8TFSI
I dont have a full Audi service history
Moral of the story - it's not looking good.
Any advice for tomorrow would be greatly appreciated.
So since I topped up my oil last (1ltr) I reset the mile counter and I've done 390miles and its asking for another litre.
I'm at Audi tomorrow at half 8 for a hell check and to start oil consumption test.
mine is a 1.8TFSI
I dont have a full Audi service history
Moral of the story - it's not looking good.
Any advice for tomorrow would be greatly appreciated.
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its gonna fail Ryan, but I think you know that already. just go through the oil test like they ask and take it back at 621 miles. Yours will obviously fail before then so its a foregone conclusion and you will be running them up before the 621 has elapsed telling them that the car needs oil. Just make sure they have a courtesy car in for you as mine took 3 weeks to fix or you will be without a motor whilst it is fixed.
without the full ASH, they may try to bill you 5K for the work and just negotiate down from there.I feel your pain. Upside is they may just fix it for free. There does not seem to be any hard and fast rules for FOC or paying from what I can tell.
without the full ASH, they may try to bill you 5K for the work and just negotiate down from there.I feel your pain. Upside is they may just fix it for free. There does not seem to be any hard and fast rules for FOC or paying from what I can tell.
Stu I can see why you left Audi! Iv spent a few hours today researching and looking at replacements but no
Merc comes close in looks and value! Yet... and Merc rear windows are weak
Ha ha ha...yes you're right there! Well it can't withstand a bike falling on top of it anyway!
It was just one thing after another with my car. Before the timing chain the year before that the water pump failed, then after the engine rebuild I had to replace all the shock absorbers. That was another £800 on top of a service and MOT.
I just had enough. The car itself seemed to be well built, but the mechanical elements were just sh!¥€
As above Ryan but as soon as the car goes in don't take any rubbish off the service advisors especially as it's the 1.8 TFSI!
Ensure Audi UK are formally aware and give them another call to see if they will open a case. It will certainly require a rebuild and you will get a good outcome..
Ryan hewitt
09' Audi A4 1.8TFSI S-Line. Ibis White
Worse case scenario it fails the consumption test and they won't fix FOC do I have the right to take the car back to where I got it from on the grounds it was sold to me faulty or something along them lines?
Depends entirely on where you bought it from, when, and stuff like that. Assuming you recently bought it from a trader, then yes: Sale of Goods act applies. But you must give THEM the opportunity to resolve the problem first.
Ryan hewitt
09' Audi A4 1.8TFSI S-Line. Ibis White
Should def. be covered by sale of goods act. As its less than 6 months, they'd have to prove that the fault did NOT exist at the time of sale. But better to get it fixed by Audi if possible.
Hope you didn't look at the Yell reviews for them? They look more than a little iffy. http://www.yell.com/biz/mb-motor-group-bradford-3424245/
Mike I have exactly same make/model/engine/colour.age as you (but its a quattro)and it was first registered in June 2011. Ive only had it for three weeks and had a long life service done for me immediately prior to purchase. After doing around 1k miles I see the oil level has dropped from full to three quarters and as such I have sent a mail to the Service Manager and his assistant at my local dealer asking for their input into my specific problem. Should I be calling Audi UK in the morning before calling my local dealership for an update?
Btw I love the car and previously had an 04 plate 2.5tdi quattro sport and never added a drop of oil to it between services. Does this level of oil consumption sound excessive or is it just the norm for petrol engines? Ive had diesels for years and cannot remember if my previous petrol cars used a lot of oil,,cheers
@PDunne - Don't waste your time: Your car is using (by your figures) 1 litre every 4000 miles (min to max on the MMI is a litre). This is a consumption level most Audi owners would give their right arm for.
Monitor it, and if it gets to around a litre every thousand miles, take it in to your dealer.
Monitor it, and if it gets to around a litre every thousand miles, take it in to your dealer.
Many thanks SB, just didnt want it going bang on the motorway as its mostly this kind of driving I do. As I said Ive had numerous diesels and a very thirsty RX-8 in the past but can never remember if my petrol cars ever used a lot of oil (other than the Mazda obviously).
Just a point tho, my 2.0 TFSI is giving me some fantastic MPG just now (>40) and I think thats on a par with my previous 2.5 TDI quattro sport. Having said that its still being driven very sensibly just now but Im very surprised with this fuel consumption...
Ryan hewitt
09' Audi A4 1.8TFSI S-Line. Ibis White
They do look a little strange. I got mine from Leeds MB motor group purely on the fact my friend got one from there with no issues.
As long as you bung a litre of oil in when prompted by the MMI gauge, you shouldn't have any problems. The 'high' and 'low' on the MMI gauge are like the high and low on a dipstick. When it's at 'low', there's still probably 4 litres in the sump. If the oil level message appears, stick a full litre in at the next convenient moment.
Cars which have serious oil problems can get misfires and rough running due to plugs fouling, but I've never heard of the engine grenading due to it.
40MPG is excellent, even on motorways. My long term average is about 31MPG, but it's very hilly here and there's not too much traffic
Ryan hewitt
09' Audi A4 1.8TFSI S-Line. Ibis White
Just got back from Audi,
They were unable to perform a consumption test due to a slight leak in the cam control valve. £160 to repair.
They said it was only minor so now I have to wait until that's fixed to do the consumption test.
As for service history he said as long as the Indy garage had done stuff right used correct parts/ oil ect there wouldn't be a problem with free rebuild.
I've phoned MB motor group and told them and they have told me to ring back this afternoon.
They were unable to perform a consumption test due to a slight leak in the cam control valve. £160 to repair.
They said it was only minor so now I have to wait until that's fixed to do the consumption test.
As for service history he said as long as the Indy garage had done stuff right used correct parts/ oil ect there wouldn't be a problem with free rebuild.
I've phoned MB motor group and told them and they have told me to ring back this afternoon.
