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2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Oh heck, I am beginning to wonder if I will bother with the A4. I am currently running a 2003 Passat PD130, and am selling that along with the funds I have from selling my A3, to buy the A4 cab, might just stick with the Passat and buy an MX-5 as a toy. I need a tow car for my caravan, and the A4 cab was going to do it for me, as i want to go back to the convertible world, but thinking a tidy mk1 MX-5 will satisfy that urge and the Passat for if the weather is **** or for when I need to tow... Oh what to do!!!!!!!!!!
  2. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    So do I look for a 3.0Tdi instead? Does that have any issues? Seems a manual one is a pig to find for the budget I have.
  3. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Your Passat is a hard car to beat, what mileage is it, saloon, trim level ?
  4. GoneSouth
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    GoneSouth Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    I can totally understand your concern about buying a 2.0 tdi. The only way to avoid the sleepless nights worrying about balance shaft failure is to a: buy a cab that's already been upgraded or, b: have the shaft and hex key upgraded asap. I opted for the latter and can both sleep at night and fully enjoy what is still a modern sporty looking 4 seater convertible.

    If alas you choose an alternate drop top then perhaps an E46 beemer cab would fill the role. Finding a diesel would be the challenge though.

    If you need advice on the balance shaft upgrade then email Ring engineering and they will be happy to explain what's involved. You can contact them via their website.
    .
  5. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Well the cab I like I can probably get for £6.5k at a push, then what are we talking to do the fix? ££s wise? Who are Ring?? (I'm in Leeds btw).

    Passat BTW is a 2003 SE in light metallic green. It does what it says on the tin but is a barge of a car if wanting to do anything spirited!! It's done 115k, 1 previous owner etc etc.
  6. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    115k it's still a baby ! Standard 1ba suspension is stupidly soft, even 1be Sport is very compliant.

    Depends if it's chain driven, I would assume it was gear driven oil pump just requiring longer hex key and remanf balancer shaft, KMB etc, £225 + surcharge.
  7. GoneSouth
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    GoneSouth Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    KMB are in Sheffield I think so not too far from you. They also fit the upgraded shafts and replace the hex key.
  8. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Thanks, I've emailed them for a price. The 3.0 I've seen is £2k more but is lower miles and has the towbar I need already fitted (that's saving £5-600) so is it worth a cheaper car that needs the hex key fix doing plus towbar fitting cost, or borrowing more money for a 3.0 with towbar and accepting more tax, ins and fuel costs... I commute 40 miles a day - but would love the 3.0 performance....
  9. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    And don't forget the sound...

    3.0 V6 TDI
  10. tut_gareth
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    tut_gareth Member

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    [Aug 27, 2014]
    Go for the 3.0! Having a 2.0 brd avant Quattro which is great apart from the mpg and touch wood hasn't had any of the issues yet,,,, I still wish I'd got the 3.0
  11. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    Oh such a dilema...!

    I'd love the power of the Quattro V6 Tdi, its a 2007, 88,000 miles two previous owners, looks tidy enough - however its £9200 (would push to pay £8500) and has the tow bar I need already fitted. But more to tax, insure, run (40 miles a day commute and tow caravan with it occasionally).

    The 2.0tdi is also a 2007 but has Bose and windblocker, but would need £600 spending on it at KMB *(they've replied with price to do the job) and a towbar (£400) but I think I could get the 2.0 for £6500 as it needs tyres soonish and the seller did hint (stupidly) that £6500 was the min he'd take (he's selling privately as he has a new A5 coming on Monday! - again he shouldn't have told me that either!).

    Heart or head?! Money situation isn't great either way, so long term think I'd regret the running costs of the 3.0tdi (and having to borrow an extra £1k to buy it on top of what the 2.0 would cost in total).... but does the KMB mod rule out further issues with the 2.0tdi ????
  12. GoneSouth
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    GoneSouth Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    Have to agree.......if you can stretch to a 3.0 then I'd go for it. Beside the additional power it'll be far happier when towing. As ever everything comes down to budget and running costs.
    .
  13. GoneSouth
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    GoneSouth Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    Bose is awesome , especialy with the roof down. Wind deflector, although a must have for top down motorway driving, can be bought on ebay when you can afford it. KMBs quote is good price for peace of mind motoring.

    As for further issues and costs then make sure its got full history (pref Audi) and that cambelt/waterpump has been done. You've already mentioned tyres (?) so check discs and pads have plenty of life. Dual mass flywheels faults are common and expensive so check its all smooth when pulling away.
  14. tut_gareth
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    tut_gareth Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    My head went with the 2.0 170ps for running costs but at 42mpg against my mates 3.0 getting 40mpg on the same journeys there isn't a lot of difference.....
  15. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    The 2.0Tdi has FASH up to the point this current seller bought it (5 yrs ago) then it's been serviced at someone local that the dealer themselves recommended (best mate of local Audi garage's service manager). It had all new discs and pads recently and cambelt/waterpump at 75,000. It's been very slightly remapped (stage 1?) for better oomph and mpg. Nobody ever sat in the back seats! I spoke at length to the seller the other day and he's a director of a company locally, now I know that doesn't make the car or him any better, but sometimes its about how it feels... I am also happy that it has 4 matching Dunlop tyres - I'm funny about cars that someone has penny pinched and put random nangkang tyres on it... here's the 2.0 :[​IMG]


    Anyway, here's the 2.0 :http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201408206736517/usedcars?logcode=visc

    Here's the 3.0 http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201408146609524/usedcars?logcode=visc
  16. GoneSouth
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    GoneSouth Member

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    [Aug 28, 2014]
    Ooh !! Both look sweet. Makes me want to go out and put the roof down.

    Both good spec. The only thing I would have preferred is the s-tronic box on the 3.0......but that's a personal thing. Don't think you could go wrong with either if they meet your requirements.
    .
  17. davidmbell
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    davidmbell Member

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    [Aug 29, 2014]
    Did you have yours done at KMB? They've emailed me with a statement saying they've had 100% record in all those that they've sold over the past few years - I'm very keen on the 2.0 and travelling 3hrs tomorrow to go see it(!!).

    Anything else I ought to look for??
  18. Audi33
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    Audi33 New Member

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    [Sep 28, 2014]
    Hello there people, im looking into buying a b7 sline tdi 170 audi, is there anything i need to watch out for or look into? Any info will ne appreciated

    Thanks
  19. Raymond999
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    Raymond999 Member

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    [Sep 28, 2014]
    Balance shaft, injectors and tandem pump
  20. Audi33
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    Audi33 New Member

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    [Sep 28, 2014]
    Seems like a common fault, are there any revised parts to overcome these issues?
  21. Clarity
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    Clarity New Member

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    [Sep 30, 2014]
    Recently bought a 170 SLine A4 so did quite a bit of homework on these issues:

    Balancer Shaft fix will depend on if you have a chain drive or gear driven unit (I believe most BRD's in the 170 are gear). If it is gear driven unit then no issue with chains however they can still suffer form a worn hex drive and there are some reports of gear damage (broken teeth). Best option is to have the balancer shaft replaced with a re-manufactured one with hardened / tighter drive hole and revised longer (100mm) hex driveshaft. Its also recommended to replace the idler gear as well to ensure you get the right backlash on the refitted gears. Approx cost for this is about £500-800 depending on where you go and what you replace as it quite a big job.

    Injectors should have been replaced on the Audi re-call so check this out in the paperwork or with Audi direct.

    Tandem pump is about £250-300 for brand new genuine (watch out for cheap Chinese copies). Its fitted to back of the cylinder head so not difficult to get to. If its just leaking fuel down the back of the engine it could just be a simple gasket (£10). Either way, can DIY or a decent indy will be able to replace easily.

    Another thing to check is the clutch / DMF. If its juddering when pulling off, clutch slipping under load/ hills or any strange rattles around the gearbox then it could be the clutch / DMF on the way out. New Clutch and DMF are about £450 for parts and about another £350 for fitting, but might want to considering going for up-rated clutch if planning any power increases.

    The potential issue are quite large ones and potentially very expensive if they go wrong (balancer shaft), but if you can get the car cheap enough and have the cash to get the bits done, or even better able to do them yourself, you'll have a very nice car that will last quite a few years.
    Andy021 likes this.
  22. Audi33
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    Audi33 New Member

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    [Sep 30, 2014]
    Really appreciate your reply! Plenty of detail there. Having looked at the prices they dont seem cheap enough to spend atleast another 7-800 pound on. Kind of in two minds. After having a trouble free b5.5 passat tdi for the past 3 years, this seems like it will be a money pit. Its a shame really, audis are very nice looking cars along with a excellent drive. Hmmmm
  23. Andy021
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    Andy021 New Member

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    [Oct 8, 2014]
    20140921_130249-1.jpg I bought my A4 in June and have done:

    Tandem pump changed (oil in fuel)
    clutch and flywheel, oil pump upgrade with KMB parts direct balancer shaft and hex (oil pump gears failed)
    coil over suspension (modification) the cross bolts needed drilling out each side corroded in tight!!
    tints (modification)
    brakes and pads and all filters(wear and tear) with a touch of caliper paint added to hide the corrosion!
    air con pressure switch replacement (switch was corroded inside) £50!!
    debagged (mod)
    cleaned egr and turbo
    cleaned out the fuel tank and replaced lift pump (power loss/hesitation when coasting)
    Put in a Alpine stereo which compliments the Bose speakers using a £45 harness to have steering wheel control and Bose amp.
    I phoned Audi and they had on record that the injectors had already been replaced on my car.
    the car is pretty quick by with the 170bhp the larger turbo = larger lag so remap a 1.9tdi and you have a reliable quick car

    I like the car but get something else!!!!!
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2014
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  24. poulton
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    poulton New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2014]
  25. poulton
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    poulton New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2014]
    Hello guys . My first post and after some advice, I'm looking to buy a friends fathers audi b7 se tdi ( 20 16v ) . It's a late 2007 model and has Fsh and 2 owners from new.

    Now it's done high miles 207,000 , still on original turbo and clutch. It was used daily doing large miles each day so seriously drives like new. It's only ever been serviced twice and year and had 2 Cambelt in its life .

    The car I can have for £2000 , it would be my daily doing 20 miles a day so much less. I've looked into the oil pump failure and struggling to see how this is still going? It seriously drives and sounds perfect . It's been serviced by his son who is a mechanic so never missed one service since his father's ownership. None off us knew about this potential issue so now I'm worrying. Are all engines at risk? What's costs on modifications parts only as I'd get free labour from my friend .

    Does this car sound like a ticking time bomb to you all?

    Adam
  26. poulton
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    poulton New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2014]
    His miles were motorway , slowly driving 200 miles a day . Not thrashed or anything

    . I'm coming from a arl pd vw engine which have none off the audis engine faults . Just the audi looks and feels so much nicer
  27. Andy021
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    Andy021 New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2014]
    someone did a study of the failed pumps and found the balance shaft hexagonal keyway bore was running off centre by 0.1mm to the pump so it accelerated the wear on the hex key. some must be more concentric than others, motor way use would definitely be a positive factor though.
    who knows what could happen when you change the use to an the urban 20 mile run though, still great price
  28. poulton
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    poulton New Member

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    [Oct 14, 2014]
    Yeah the price is a plus and it's been amazingly reliable. Just this has doubted my choice :( .

    Is there a simple fix or its a big job ?
  29. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Oct 14, 2014]
    It's out because it isn't a proper hex bore keyway. Instead the insanity of a bore with tiny machined grooves are used to drive the very tips of the edges of the 77mm x 6 mm hex key :banghead:

    audibalshaftmag.jpg

    To fix , the longer solid 100mm hex key with a remanufactured balancer shaft with a deeper 10x harder chrome vanadium insert that has a proper hexagonal keyway bore.

    Sump off , and drop the oil pump assembly down to fit.
  30. poulton
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    poulton New Member

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    [Oct 14, 2014]
    Engine code is b r e just looked is this still a issue
  31. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Oct 14, 2014]
    KMB Parts Direct

    Audi / VW Engine Codes for Chain Driven Oil Pump SystemsSuitable for Audi A4 /A6 & VW PASSAT 2.0 TDI Engines
    Suitable for Audi A4 /A6 & VW PASSAT 2.0 TDI Engines
    ENGINE CODES - AUDI - BPW, BNA, BRF, BLB - 2005 - 2007
    ENGINE CODES - VW PASSAT - BMA, BKP, BMP, BHW - 2005 - 2007


    Audi / VW Engine Codes for Gear Driven Oil Pump Systems

    Suitable for Audi A4 /A6 & VW PASSAT 2.0 TDI Engines
    ENGINE CODES - AUDI - BVG, BVS, BBA, BRD, BRE, CAGA, CAGB, CAHA, CAHB, CAGC - 2005 - December 2009
    ENGINE CODES - VW PASSAT - BUZ, BMR - 2005 - December 2009 / VW SHARAN - BRT


    All affected, but there are much more than that with common rail engines up to 2011 getting the shorter 77 mm hex key.

    So any 2.0 tdi PD or CR from 2005 > 2011 is at risk.


  32. Andy021
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    Andy021 New Member

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    [Oct 14, 2014]
    well, I did mine myself, dropped the subframe, A/C Pipes and the sump which has two badly placed bolts behind the flywheel to remove. you may want to remove the front bumper assembly so you can see and correctly mesh the idler gear if re-using it. or buy a new one for about £40 and assemble it hard in mesh (a coating breaks down to give correct mesh)
    the new remanufactured balance shaft is £250 and has a deeper keyway and key.

    Im not convinced with Ben Williamsons article, the hexagonal bore may be broached ('machined') I think he really is guessing. My OEM balance shaft appeared to be electro discharge machined which has an obvious sparked surface texture and this process can have larger variation in position and size which I would say caused the wear, the bore was a loose fit to the key aswell.

    If I was you drop the sump and replace the keyway only for £20 which you can get online or from Audi. try removing the 2 hardest bolts through the gearbox first!!
    if the balance shaft is found to be really bad then have a rethink then
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2014
  33. Cottrell__a4
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    Cottrell__a4 New Member

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    [Oct 25, 2014]
    I have owned my 2006 a4 s line for a year now it has recently developed the low oil pressure warning. I drove it the rest of the way home (around 5 miles) in a very conservative and gentle way as I wasn't aware of the balance shaft issues etc until I googled oil pressure a4 s line 2.0 tdi. Obviously I saw countless amounts of horror stories- with the general outo me being that audi will admit nothing regarding this...

    So, with some quite extensive reading of various sites/YouTube vids me and a mate decided we would tackle this ourselves. We took the sump off- which was one hell of a job!! Ended up jacking the engine up off its mounts so the sump would clear the cross member that conveniently sits tight up underneath the sump.
    It appears that someone may have already had the sump off as the gasket consisted of white mastic but when I phoned around it appears that this can be quite common as assembled by audi:notme:.

    Anyways we dropped the oil pump and balance shaft assembly out and immediately saw the wear and play from the balance shaft keyway and the hex key that drives the oil pump.
    I've sent thebalance shaft off to be re-machined in N .ireland and should get it back next week.

    Now, do we need to time the balance shaft up to the engine and if so, how??! I've seen this tool for £22, is there any article/ video explaining what to do?

    Thanks
    adrian
  34. Andy021
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    Andy021 New Member

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    [Oct 25, 2014]
    yeah the standard silicon seal is white so it should be as the factory left it!
    its a simple tool that locks the balance shafts in place while fitting
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/AUDI-VOLK...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item43d12c5ba7
    it does fall off easily so you might want to stick it in place. ps don't forget to get that idler mesh right and whilst your there clean out the pick up filter. good luck

    here is a walk through
    http://www.justanswer.com/uk-car/627p6-vw-passat-tdi-2005-engine-code-bkphow-shaft-oil-pump.htm

    http://pics.tdiclub.com/data/3419/BHW_Balance_Shaft_Module_Replacement.pdf
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  35. Cottrell__a4
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    Cottrell__a4 New Member

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    [Oct 25, 2014]
    Thanks for that info that will be a massive help!

    Regards
    adrian
  36. SDHA4SLine
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    SDHA4SLine Active Member

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    [Nov 6, 2014]
    Hi

    Been reading this post for what seems like an eternity now and still not found the answer I was looking for so wondered if anyone can advise?

    Apologies if the answer is in this thread already but its just so blinking long!!!

    I have a 2006 BRD engine, Audi dealer has confirmed that I have gear driven balancer shaft but they cant tell if I have the uprated one with longer hex drive & full hex balancer shaft hole.

    Been quoted anything from 1hr to 3 hours labour to drop the sum & what ever else needed just to find out which balancer shaft I have. So my question is does anyone know is it just a case of removing sump and finding part number on balancer shaft unit (if its visible?) or does the unit need to be stripped down to see how long hex drive is and if balance shaft has full hex drive hole?

    Also if I do can I assume I have no issue? car currently has 90k on clock

    Regards
    Steve
  37. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Nov 7, 2014]
    100% you'll have the inferior 77 mm hex key with poor balancer shaft keyway.

    When they did go 100 mm did they give the balancer shaft a proper hexagonal bore keyway ?

    I wouldn't chance it, go KMB Parts Direct and alike and receive a remanfacured balancer shaft with a 10x harder chrome vanadium insert which has a deeper proper hexagonal keyway.
  38. SDHA4SLine
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    SDHA4SLine Active Member

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    [Nov 7, 2014]
    Thanks, I thought that the full hex drive hole was part of the Audi upgraded unit I don't know for sure.
  39. Gazwould
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    Gazwould Active Member

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    [Nov 7, 2014]
    I would like to know what Audi did .

    And how much £ their balancer shaft is ?
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2014
  40. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Nov 7, 2014]
    Cost of the complete balance shaft module from Audi is approximately £900 ( well it was four years ago when I bought one and before the after market solutions became available ).
    This is for the module only and excludes all the other bits and fitting etc

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