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Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.
Wow hope he lives close to me lol !!
Hi, did the so called dipstick test ð
No resistance at all when putting dipstick back in tried it several times !
Hopefully I got the gear driven pump then ? ðð
It's makes no difference if gear driven or belt driven you will have a problem.
Thanks mate for putting mind at rest lol
Bt if I got geardriven I only need the hex done yes?
I am not 100% but research I've done and people I've talk to you (audi and Vag specialists) you must change the gears as well.
There are only two types of oil pump/balance shaft assemblies.
These are Gear driven and Chain driven ( no belt driven units were produced).
if you have a gear driven unit you only need replace the hex shaft period !
Yes it's chain and gear my mistake, but far as just changing the hex shaft, I'd rather have a job done correctly.
I have a brd oil pump (gear driven) for sale as I have removed mine and gone back to the old 1.9 oil pump.
You are getting the various designs and types of oil pump/balance shaft assemblies mixed up.
On the gear driven oil pump /balance shaft assemblies you only need to replace the hex shaft.
On the chain driven oil pump/ balance shaft assemblies you need to replace the gears and the hex shaft.
In the early days of this problem ( say three years ago) one had to replace the complete oil pump/balance shaft module but as time has passed and we now know about this problem there have been aftermarket none Audi repair kits available.
Take the time and read this whole thread and all will become clear.
My car, audi a4 2006, 2.0TFSI (petrol) Quattro has suffered oil pump failure.
Was coming off the motorway heading to work and low oil pressure warning flashed up....managed to drive to car park.
Went back at end of day, started car and no warning was showing. I topped up the oil and drove home (17 miles on mway approx 50mph) and then drove to mechanics in morning. Still no warning light or ab normal noises from engine.
Independent tells me oil pump is blown and chain is snapped and there is no oil pressure. Just wondering why warning was showing and then dissapeared. Independent saying approx 2k of damage. Car is only worth 5k. . Said it might be possible to get pump redrilled rather than replaced.
Audi quoting Â£1100 inc vat for a new oil pump over phone.
Any cheap fixes? or a way of patching up and selling off to we buy any car? I wasn't aware petrol models had the oil pump issues.
Mine was done 10k miles ago buy the previous owner, I'm 'assuming' it's been upgraded to the gear driven unit? It was done by a company called autodeutsche in Manchester along with a cam belt change, they wouldn't fit a new chain driven assembly would they? An from what I've read the only way to know for sure is to remove the sump?
Ring them they will have the job on file.
After hearing about some failures in the mid 50K miles range i decided to take my 57k miles B7 cabriolet to the local indi for a bit of preventative maintenance and get the hex shaft changed. I was glad I did. The end of the shaft was shockingly worn and the technician said he had seen better shafts on engines that had failed. His opinion was that we would have most likely had a failure within 1000 miles.
The cost was 355 pounds and in my mind, money well spent.
Did they replace it with the 100mm version?
No, my understanding is the balance shaft would need to have been removed and machined to take the newer shaft length. When we originally discussed the work I mentioned the Powermax upgrade of the balance shaft and longer hex shaft, but they said they had replaced many shafts with like for like and had never seen one back. If this shaft lasts another 50k then I will be happy.
The chain snapping problem is also on the (2010) SKODA FABIA 1.4 TDI Greenline.
Chain drives the contra-rotating balance shaft as well as the oil pump.
Catastrophic failure of the chain results in a bill for Â£5100 (inc VAT).
I'm sorry if this has been asked a bunch of times but I'm getting ready to buy a preowned car, and the one at the top of my list was a b7 a4 from 07-08 and I've been researching before I drop the money for it what issues are the most common, but after reading this about the oil pump failure is a killer for me. Now is this specifically to the tdi 2.0 models? Are 3.2 and 2.0t petrol models using the same oil pump and balancer shaft where this can happen? I'm sorry if I sound dumb but this will be my first European car (I live in the US) and always owned Japanese imports.
I just don't want to drop $10,000-$13,000 on buying it and have to drop 3 to 5 more if this happens.
Buy and fix with longer hex key and re manufactured balancer shaft that has a deeper recess at sprocket end.
Adverage cost for these two parts in UK minus the surcharge is Â£225.
So you're suggesting me to buy the car and do some mayor work on the motor before I can even enjoy it?
I still don't know if this problem is affecting the 3.2 and 2.0t petrol engines. If it does then I think I'll be looking into a 3 series bmw .
Just done the balance shaft repair today for my Audi A4 2.0TDI Quattro (BRD engine).
I am lucky it hadn't happened for 7 years, but I thought it was the right time to do the job (not failed yet...).
It cost me Â£550+VAT including "Fitting (& new oil and oil filter)".
Considering the oil change costs nearly Â£80-100 nowadays, I think this garage is very reasonable.
I know total Â£660 is not cheap at all, but I don't have to worry about it anymore.
They showed me the old shaft and key, which started being worn out. I could see it was on the way out!
They replaced the shaft and key reinforce ones.
I am not sure if I am allowed to recommend someone here on the forum.
but they are Ring Engineering in Hayes (not far from Heathrow Airport).
All the staff are nice and look so professional as they are more like engineering company.
I am glad I found a nice garage to fix the problem.
Sure a thicker one would help but the actual design fault is that the 6mm hex key isn't in far enough into the sprocket/gear end of balancer shaft causing a fraction of rotational play that eventually rounds off loosing oil pump drive.
Hence the updated replacement hex key is 23 mm longer and so fits an extra 23 mm further into a re manufactured deeper recess balancer shaft.
So a bodger could just flip the hex around refit it and screw car back together ready for sale?
No because it would slip in the pump end then,and the money is the labour not the part in this instance the part is only about Â£20.
I don't agree,the flats on a smaller diameter shaft are to small and the shoulders don't have enough contact,
Just the same as a 10mm spanner and a 19mm spanner ,you can use more force and torque without the fear of rounding off but with no extra depth.
Yes the longer shaft will last longer but it is not compleatly fail free as I believe they still fail.
Also a small shaft of say 6mm with a tolerance of 1mm has much more slop and scope to fail than a 12mm shaft with 1mm tolerance and the 12mm one will have bigger flats and more turning force.
Yes the longer one is better but I don't believe it has stopped them failing,that's why I think they want more milage out of the shaft and not completely fail free.
Let's face it the older oil pump on the PD's did 300,000 plus,that's why I have fitted one to a bkp engine,and why others have fitted them to the blb engine.
The balance shifts don't seem to add anything apart from death of the engine itself.
I have a bkp without balance shaft and a blb with,both have oil pressure gauges fitted and both produce the same pressure.
Eventually I will replace the blb pump with a older type alh one.
A 12 mm 100 mm long harder hex key with re manufactured balancer shaft to suit would be bomb proof.
The next question is why haven't Audi thought of that?
Its not like they haven't been building cars long enough to know all what's been said here.
Its Possibly because its not good for business.
The reason why some of these poor quality fails are happening is because they don't test enough.
A chap has a client that designs stuff for VW, it gets put into production without sometimes being tested, absolutely bonkers.
Cost cutting I don't know, so Audi saved a few quid not letting NCAP crash test an A5 !
The easiest solution would be to make the hex key to an enlarged 12 mm at the balancer shaft end similar to this.
View attachment 34058
Look at the wear marks on the used short hex shaft and it looks to my bodgers eye that its engages more deeply so will be no issue at all
Ps dont ever buy a car off of me!
Wifes will be mint as I cant bear the aggro
Mine on the other hand!
Similar comments about 77mm vs 100mm hex key from two engineering companies that take the repair job in UK.
(1) Powermax Engineering
The reason for the failure is not down to the length of the key, the failureâs are caused because the internal of the balance shaft is soft and then the hex key is also soft thatâs why they wear each other out. This is why we have manufactured a specific insert and got it hardened to stop it from wearing.
If you go back to the old Ford 2.0 petrol engineâs that drove the oil pump from the distributor which also used a 6mm hex key they never had this problem as the drive driving the key was made from a lot harder material and they did not have this problem.
(2) Ring Engineering
I would also like to correct any misconception about how the the hex key is wearing out. The hex key only wears out because the key way in the balance shaft wears out and the residual debris causes wear on the hex key resulting in the hex key rounding off as well. (Think of sand paper, the material debris acts as an abrasive which smooths off the hex key)
Our upgrade is made from chrome vanadium, which is 10 times stronger than the standard balance shaft case hardened steel. Therefore there will be no wear on the old 77mm hexagonal key if we fitted that, let alone the new upgraded 77mm key way that we use.
Also the contact area on both 100mm and 77mm is exactly the same I can show you this as I have both these units in stock as proof and I can also show you the wear on the 100mm shaft. Our Chrome vanadium upgrade has an increased contact area of 60% over the VW/Audi design. And as the shaft we use is a 77mm shaft, it has a massive effect of the total torque load that the shaft can carry. A longer shaft (100mm) is more prone to torsion breakage/fracture (when the torque increases) over a shorter length shaft (77mm) with the same cross sectional area.
We have tried and tested all different methods and after running tests on all of them we stand by and say that our current method is the best and will last the longest.
I hope this is helpful.
Hi, I have came across this too late unfortunately. My oil pump and turbo was replaced by audi 10 months and only 9000 miles ago at a cost of Â£2600. VW garage so 2yr parts and labour warranty. The low pressure light has just came on again, there is no oil pressure and car is back in audi to see if it is a valid warranty claim. I've checked the receipts and pump was replaced originally but cannot see any evidence of replacing the hex drive shafts!!! I am worried that it will not be covered under this warranty if it is the shaft that has failed this time but last time it was the pump itself. Surely they will have replaced the hex drive at the same time as the pump. 2007 2.0tdi brd engine. Car is booked in this weds need as much info as possible for when they try and wriggle out of the warranty claim.
Hi everyone, new to the club, Audi forum club and buggered oil pump club !
Have a 2007 2.0FTSI Convertible with 51 tho on the clock, out one evening, big massive bang on a fast A road, red oil pump failure notice on the dash, stopped soon as poss and got towed home. Took the car to local garage who said the oil pump chain snapped shattering throughout the engine, rebuild of Â£2450, I did speak with Audi uk who frankly told us its not common, you were "unlucky".
UNLUCKY..?? and refused to help, really miffed with them, just gathering evidence to consider small claims court as the item is not a serviceable item and should last the life of the engine, therefore unfit for purpose.
Whilst im on, im really greatful to the techi people on here, fantastic pool of knowledge and has helped me out saving money, much much appreciated..
Hi folks, Just got my Indy to strip out sump to check oil pump drive, balance shaft/ hexagon key drive etc and after purchasing new balance shaft and Hexagon key drive from KMB, it seems it has been done!! But he has found the above scoring on this part of the oil pump. We are gonna find out how much a new oil pump would cost tomorrow but would anybody know if the scoring could affect oil pressure.
The job is being done as a preventative measure along with cam belt and water pump and service.
Any advice on the scoring will be gratefully received. By the way it is a BLB!
i sorted my BLB oil pump problem very easily!
sold the car!
sorry, i will get my coat!
If Audi did the repair they will have replaced the complete oil pump/balance shaft module and this includes the hex drive.
The price you have paid ( including for the turbo) is indicative they have replaced the full package.
Good luck with the warranty claim but I don't think you will have anything to worry about, keep us posted ..........
Got my car back today with the conversion done!
Looking forward to a good nights sleep!!
mine just being repaired now bearing on oil pump shaft collapsed lost a tooth on cog so chain was jumping damaged conrods too so loads of new parts and converted to gears now too I was gutted only had car a week
Audi are now saying that the pump has failed due to a circlip failure and because the circlip was not replaced last time it is not warranty, plus turbo has gone again. offering me 50% goodwill gesture. they sent me a pic of the pump/failed circlip when i noticed excessive wear on the hex shaft which they had not even noticed( they said theyve reassembled with new circlip and oil pressure is fine ) see pic, this wear is after only 9000 miles. i told them i want this shaft replacing and want there opinion on the state of my balance shaft. Any ideas on why this shaft is so worn after only 9000 miles?
Stand back !
From your earlier post you paid the Main dealer some Â£2500 plus for the oil pump /balance shaft repair work .
These costs indicate they replaced the full oil pump/balance shaft module and turbo i.e everything to ensure the conversion was done properly to Audi specs.The new assembly includes for the new hex shaft and as such the wear you now have ( caused by a poor fit by the way)should be covered by the 2 year warranty. The Main dealer /Audi are wriggling out of their contractual responsibilities here and I would just not put up with it. All this about a failed circlip and it not being replaced is down to the main dealer making the repair as they should have replaced all components to ensure they could maintain the 2 year parts and labour warranty.
Go back , stand your ground and be vocal. This is just not right !
Thanks for the reply. I have fought all week now the garage is saying they have done everything to a pc programs instruction ( elsa instruction i think he said ) and the fitted an oil pump kit which comes without the circlip therefore they have fitted old circlip which has failed. I said nonsense circlips dont fail anyway for no reason poor workmanship has caused it to fail. They have basically said take their offer or fight it. Cannot believe it, i know i would win if i took it further but i really need the car back so im pretty much stumped. Cant believe they sent me that pic of worn shaft which they hadnt even noticed, so called experts who were investigating the root cause!!! Circlip is definitely NOT the root cause in my eyes. Going off reciept from initial repair theres no balancer or hex shaft listed, just pump Â£140. Turbo Â£1400. And a few pipes, seals, sealants etc plus labour Â£2550.