1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33
    Almost all BRE coded engines have gear driven oil pumps so its "only" the hex drive that needs replacing.
    Again to be sure you need to drop the sump.
    Do a bit of research and its ALL in this thread and its well worth reading to understand what the problems and solutions are.
  2. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    I started the engine today and had a good listen cold & hot,As far as I can tell, I have no noise, by the way the car with the remap is absolutely superb to drive.
    just some vibrations (witch I will get checked, flywheel, engine & gearbox mounts, cam timing, ect...)
    I have an appointment tomorrow morning at a garage : sump out ! and oil pump out ! if it's a chain , chain in the bin ! modif to gears!
    if it's gears 1/2 of the problem sorted, then I get the shaft mod and upgrade hex key,


    cheers
    Konstantin
  3. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    I am confuse to what is the best way some engineering companies repairing the shaft hex key hole,

    some engineering places press an insert & weld and use a hard metal key but still in 77mm long
    some just press but do not weld, and still use a 77 mm key OME
    some repair it by using liquid metal & re machine the hex (no insert) and use 100 mm,

    on another hand, if mine is chain driven (witch is likely to be), I could buy a second hand oil pump from 2009 with 60K miles, with the long 100 mm key for £ 420 , but just wonder how good is the shaft on those oil pumps ??......apparently better that the early geared one ??
    anyone knows

    thanks
  4. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33
    ALL IN THE THREAD. read the last ten pages and make your own mind up, its your money !
  5. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have been reading the last 15 pages....
    I think the quality of the late OEM 100 mm hex rod & shaft is still poor,
    there is probably a few reasons why they wear out; slack fit, soft metal on hard metal, size and length, ect...I will get in touch with my local engineering company to understand the issues,
    I will definitely have the shaft reconditioned by an engineering company, I just have to find out what's the best & durable way to do the job, I would obviously converted the unit to gears, and most important, have it timed properly when fitting back the oil pump...
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2013
  6. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi everyone,
    my sump is off;
    after 105 000 miles I was very surprise to find the chain and tensioner in good condition, I am obviously not taking any chances and converted to gears;
    we also took apart the oil pump and find a slit wear on the hexagonal rod, but at both end at the shaft and slightly at the oil pump,
    it may be because the fit is too slack in the first place, or maybe because the rod is too soft or the difference between soft and hard material friction makes the rod to wear...!? I will try to find out,
    I am also looking at what's the best way to repair the shaft & rod, at the moment there is a lot of engineering companies in EU that offer this service but there is 4 different methods ....very confusing,
    anyways, I would suggest to owners with 2009 cars (gears & 100 mm hex key oil pump) to look at their hexagonal key as soon as they rich about 70 k, the sump and oil pump are dismantle very quickly, and fit a new key will be a good idea,
  7. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Decision;I not sure of the insert method, insert & weld, metal liquid repair or the 100 mm long hexagonal key ...I went for the oversized hexagonal rod , basically they make a new rod witch is bigger at the shaft and they oversize the shaft key hole, there is someone from Irland that advertise on ebay and also a polish company; http://tmaserwis.pl/kontakt/,both of them quote more or less 500 € , for a refurbish pump included new crankshaft gear, my last thought is do I buy a new oil pump unit at ( 120€) or use my one, At the same time I do the cambelt & water pump , even if it only has 40 k , by the way we found lot of dirt and leaves on the inter cooler, it worth cleaning it often ....

    Attached Files:

  8. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33

    It would be foolhardy to just replace the hex shaft on your assembly. You mentioned in an earlier post you have a BRE engine that has a chain driven oil pump assembly ?
    If this is true you need to get the unit converted to a gear driven oil pump/balance shaft assy while the sump is off. Even if the chain , tensioner and drive cogs look ok,these are the parts that first fail. Do yourself a favour and get a full conversion done and don't just replace the hex drive.
    Macdoon likes this.
  9. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    sorry if there is a miss understood mine is a BLB, and of course I am converting it to gears ...

    some further research on the wear and it may seam obvious; the shaft and rod would wear because of all the permanent shocks between them, it's just a weak design, I think they are all like this the new ones may last longueur...

    In my opinion every owner should consider refurbish the shaft and key every 60k same time as the cambelt...
    any ways this is what I will do if I still have the car...
    once remapped its a great car the power/weight ratio is more or less the same as the 3 L TDI (heavier engine & AWD )
  10. RH172
    Offline

    RH172 New Member

    Joined:
    May 13, 2011
    Messages:
    7
    Likes Received:
    2
    Spyboy

    What happened with your solicitor?

  11. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    geared oil pump.jpg one other thing,
    it is not a good idea to use shafts from a chain drive oil pump to convert it to gears, for the shafts to spin in the same direction as the chain one because there is a gears in between crank and oil pump (3 gears in total) it reverses the spinning direction,
    the gear oil pump shafts have gears going the other way around....
  12. soslana
    Offline

    soslana New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0

    Hi Paul, this is giving me a hope!! I have 55 plate A6, 2.0TDI with BLB engine, my car done 125k miles and after reading all this I panicked little bit. Phoned Audi to see if previous owner did something about this case but they did not had a record but someone on the phone told me if it had to happen it would happen already. My question is if my car has a gear drive am i safe?

    many thanks in advanvce

    Josef
  13. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hi Josef,

    Paul would probably confirm, unfortunately soon or later you will have a wear to the hexagonal key and slot shaft,
    Being a BLB, it is likely do be a chain drive , unless a previous owner already converted it, the only way to know(has Paul mentioned) is to remove the sump to check, the oil pump is right there .....
    As a preventive measure I am doing mine at the moment, my engine has 105 k , there was no noise , the chain & tensioner showed some wear & the key and slot as well , the fit of the key in the shaft had some slack, witch I can imagine it would become worst in the coming miles due the permanent chocks,
    Konstantin
  14. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33

    For what it's worth I totally agree with what kos11-12 has written.

    Paul B7
  15. soslana
    Offline

    soslana New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the replays guys, I am booking car for service so will get them to check and maybe if its not too dear get it changed as well. Audi said it would cost me 370 quid just to replace hex i guess 100mm ?? Hopeing to get a better deal from my usual garage.

    Josef
  16. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33
    Your car is a BLB unit so don't just swap the hex shaft. You need to get the unit fully converted from the chain driven assembly to the geared unit while its down.

    Good luck,

    Paul B7
  17. soslana
    Offline

    soslana New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks for the tips, I am happy to do conversion if its chain drive, but what do i need to by exactly? I mean name of the part so i can google for it.

    many thanks
  18. soslana
    Offline

    soslana New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    this is way off topic but does anyone knows why can not I access to hidden menu on MMI after Audi did diagnostics? thanks
  19. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33
    V03G 103 295 AL 041666/Housing at £769.30p

    V03G 198 119 Repair Kit at £154

    V03G 103 603h Oil Pan at £92.01p

    V03G 103 212D Gear at £31.60p

    These are the main parts (i.e. excluding a few seals, bolts etc) and the prices are Audi prices from late 2011.
  20. soslana
    Offline

    soslana New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2014
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    thanks Paul, I will find out whats on the car first and then worry about it. At the moment fingers crossed no probs with anything but better be cautious
  21. Darren198712
    Offline

    Darren198712 Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    10
    The Quattro brd is not as bad as the blb as it runs a gear drive on mine it did anyway) I converted my oil pump back to the old 1.9 oil pump. Have a look at a thread I posted
  22. trumpton
    Offline

    trumpton New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Hi.

    Thought I'd share my experience also. I have a 2005 2.0tdi A6, 150k miles. I've driven this car from new, never had any issues other than the usual cambelt changes etc. Had an sensor go a year ago, but nothing major.

    Oil Pressure light came on on the motorway on Monday of this week, and stayed on. Rang my local specialist, who told me to stop straight away. Got the car towed to him via RAC (a long story for another thread!) after limping off the motorway for a few miles. Sure enough, it appears the oil pump has failed due to the issues raised in this thread.

    I am looking at a bill of just under £2,000 to put things right with the retro fit kit. It appears at this early stage there is no other damage to the engine, so touch wood, no other costs will be involved. Like most other owners of this car, I had no reason to realise this was going to be an issue, until it presented itself to me - sounds like I've done well to get to over 150k miles before it happened.

    Unfortunately for me, last month I had the cambelt done, so I'm pretty committed to getting the repair done and hoping I have a few years left in the old girl.

    But of course the irksome thing is the circumstances surrounding Audi's actions here. I had a lengthy discussion with them this morning, In summary:

    1. They wouldn't do anything for me because the car wasn't currently at a main dealer being looked at by their technicians. I said, "let's assume its at my local dealer now, and the problem is the problem, would you help me anyway?". The reply was no - partly because my last main dealer service was in 2010, and because they don't believe they should. Touché.

    2. They said they have had a few isolated cases of this, hence why the modification was made. I told her that was simply not true and pointed her towards Google, and suggested a search term of "2.0TDI oil pump failure" to amend her opinion.

    3. They didn't deem it necessary to do a recall of this engine to get the kit retro fitted. This was part of their constantly evolving engineering work, and happens all the time.

    4. My Audi specialist chap says he's done several of these over the years. he also pointed out that Audi are the only ones making the kit, and it is priced very top dollar, because they know you have no alternatives.

    It's a difficult one - I see both sides. I sounded off, and felt better for it, but there was nothing they were prepared to do. I would be happy to take some of the burden of fixing this, but having to pay over £1000 plus VAT for a kit (which can't be that substantial surely?) is the bit that hurts the most. You would think at the very lest, they would price these parts reasonably, if they didn't perform a recall.

    If the total repair cost was a few hundred quid, I wouldn't be posting here now, but a £2k bill is a big pill to swallow. But then again, I'm not in a position to buy a replacement vehicle. Feeling more than angry at Audi now - this experience will certainly make me give Audi a wide berth when I do come to choosing my next car.

    Obviously I've taken a dim view of all this, because I'm the poor mug faced with an unexpected large bill. But when the local specialist tells me that Audi should be hauled over the coals for this (and other similar things), then I do start to feel that they have behaved very underhandedly. His view of the situation is going to be more subjective than mine.

    To feel screwed over by a company that I held "up there" in terms of quality and brand values, is a real kick in the teeth.
  23. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    Your very lucky the turbo at least isn't goosed.

    You can have a re manufactured repair kit that has a longer hex key with deeper recess in the sprocket, fitted with labour should be less than £500.

    Just 1 repair kit supplier is selling 5 a week.
  24. kos11-12
    Offline

    kos11-12 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2013
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    0
    yes very lucky you did not damage anything....

    just to be more precise it is not recommended to convert a chain drive oil pump to a geared one, best is to start with a geared oil pump as the shafts have their own gears the other way around....
  25. trumpton
    Offline

    trumpton New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2014
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    1
    Indeed. Mind you I'm not holding my breath - who knows? As I understand it, the primary failure was the chain itself.
  26. Paul B7
    Offline

    Paul B7 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    609
    Likes Received:
    33

    I am not sure what the above means ?
    BLB engines have a chain driven pump as standard and on failure the repair IS to have it converted to a gear driven unit.
    Al the diesel engines after the BLB ( maybe the odd BRE ) have gear driven oil pumps as standard.
    Gazwould likes this.
  27. dentsy
    Offline

    dentsy I HAVE THE OPTION CODES

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    15
    Hi All,

    really sorry also to hear of some bad experiences here !

    I have a 2007 56 plate 140 BHP B7 Avant with a BRE engine I hope I am ok with being gear driven.

    Si
  28. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    Gear driven or chain driven they all have a dodgy under engineered hex drive key.
  29. Raymond999
    Offline

    Raymond999 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    9
    I've just had my 57 a4 2.0 tdi hex drive key upgraded so it can't fail, it cost £1350 but worth every penny. The garage that did the upgrade told me all a4 2.0 tdi and other various Vag 2.0 tdi will suffer this failed at one point in there life and even the newer common rail engines have this failer.
  30. dentsy
    Offline

    dentsy I HAVE THE OPTION CODES

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    15
    Wow mate I never thought it cost that much !!
  31. Raymond999
    Offline

    Raymond999 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    9
    They fitted all new gears as well so it's bullet proof
  32. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    Why the expense. All you needed was a £4 the longer 100 mm hex key with deeper remanf sprocket.
  33. Raymond999
    Offline

    Raymond999 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    9
    I don't have list of all the parts but the parts bill alone from audi was north of 800 and they reengineered hex key them self and near two day labour doing the job came to a grand total 1300 plus.
    I know one thing you can't do the job properly by just changing the hex key
  34. dentsy
    Offline

    dentsy I HAVE THE OPTION CODES

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    15
    Mmm I thought if I was lucky enough to have the gears I would get it all done at a local guy for under £400

    Mmmm got my head reeling now what I got in mine 😒😒
  35. Raymond999
    Offline

    Raymond999 Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2014
    Messages:
    42
    Likes Received:
    9
    If you need any advice give swift engineering a call on 01912140056 they were very helpful when I rang them.
    They are Vag specialists and very knowledgeable
  36. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    My dad fixed his like this...

    [ATT=CONFIG]28009[/ATTACH]

    IMG201208_xpwspqn_zpse2017be5.jpg

    Cost around £300 and fitted it on his driveway in about 2.5 hrs .

    Attached Files:

  37. dentsy
    Offline

    dentsy I HAVE THE OPTION CODES

    Joined:
    May 20, 2007
    Messages:
    248
    Likes Received:
    15
    Is there not any way it can be checked by engine and chassis what exactly has been fitted ?

    Surely this day and age Audi have a database that's shows everything ?

    Unless they are afraid to admit they have 😃
  38. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    You won't get a straight answer, they don't know.
  39. Darren198712
    Offline

    Darren198712 Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    187
    Likes Received:
    10
    I know there is a dip stick test. Google it. Also chain or gear driven the hex shaft will still fail durning time.
  40. Gazwould
    Offline

    Gazwould Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2011
    Messages:
    576
    Likes Received:
    94
    There is over a thousand replies to this thread and some people as a fix or preventative measure choose to rape their own wallet and fork out on a complete new twin balancer shaft oil pump assembly :wtf:

Share This Page