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2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Mags
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    Mags Have you seen my keys?

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    Not yet bud, but I did also have to replace the fly wheel.
    Seems it was flagged up as a replacement, when I ordered the new clutch.

    Early fly wheels suffered with judder, so that was another £170. :slapped:

    It'll be done this week, hopefully.
    #41
  2. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    Have you had to sell your PC to raise funds for this...?!

    Any news on cost!

    What was the noise like, from the chain - Easy to spot?
    #42
  3. Mags
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    Mags Have you seen my keys?

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    Sorry I've not been here for some time, we had some bad news just before Christmas and things have been a bit down here.

    Well the bill ended up at 1100 excl vat, which I thought was not bad, considering what he replaced and all the work involved.
    The engine runs real sweet now, nothing like the lumpy mess it was before, even when the chain was still in working order.

    The actual noise is a very distinctive chain rattle (when starting up cold) and when I was on the motorway (when I knew something was amiss) there was an almost cyclic, humming vibration, coming from the engine no matter what the speed was.
    Very easy to spot I thought, but for sure it wouldn't last long if I'd have left it. Maybe another 200 miles at the most.

    I'm selling the car now though, after this cold spell. It's lost it's spark, if you know what I mean.
    I'm looking at going back to another Evo.
    #43
  4. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    Sorry to hear that mate - Hope your all ok now.

    Was that the clutch aswell?


    Cheers,


    Gary.
    #44
  5. Mags
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    Mags Have you seen my keys?

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    As good as can be expected, thanks for asking.

    Yea clutch and fly wheel.

    It did have a few teething problems, but it boiled down to an old fault (before I owned it).
    Basically one wire was not correctly connected to the engine management system and so it turned out the previous owner had had a dummy cam shaft sensor fitted, to alleviate the problem.
    But Ian, my mechanic, didn't charge me another penny for all the extra time he spent finding the problem, even though it was an old fault.

    Top man. :arco:

    I know for sure the guy only had work done at Audi, so my thoughts about their workmanship is rather poor atm. They didn't even get the timing it right, after they changed the belt at 80K. :blink:

    But I have to say now it's as sweet as a nut, a real pleasure to drive.
    #45
  6. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    Hi mags, glad to see the motor is now up and running, I am thinking of doing same repair as you, i.e just replace the chain and tensioner as per you picture of new parts. Only about £80 for parts. would also want to do timming belt, and water pump. its a fair effort to do as you pictures show, whole front end has to come off. My friend sais he think we should do it , he seems to know his stuff. my fear is that there may be a number of specialised tools required, i.e for the chain, also for the timing belt kit. I also wonder if it is possible to do this without an engine lift.

    I don't suppose your mechanic could advise us on what toolls and their number is really required? Does he have an email address or phone number

    PS, I went back to Audi UK, they said that this is not a common problem so no goodwill. Might still go for small claims but probably have no chance.

    if the top sprocket is worn then i will have to go down the costly route and replace the entire assembly with a chainless setup using Audi which will be 1800 plus vat.

    I also see your repair bill was £1100, but this included the fly wheel which i assume was £170 as you say but also a bit of labour too. Did you you do timing belt and water pump?
    #46
  7. Mags
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    Mags Have you seen my keys?

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    Thanks bud, yea all is well.
    If you have this issue, get it done asap the earlier you catch it the better.

    I'll ask Ian about special tools, there was nothing extra he needed that he didn't already have.
    I'll also ask if he's ok with me giving out his number, hope that's ok with you.

    I did think about going the chain-less route, but it was cost prohibitive.
    I had a new clutch, fly wheel, timing belt, small sprocket and the whole chain assembly.
    He didn't touch the water pump.
    You'll have to let me know how you get on, if you decide to take legal action. :icon_thumright:
    #47
  8. albarker01
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    albarker01 Member

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    I have a A4 Avant BLB 2.0 TDi done 79K. Low oil pressure warning light came on, immediately stopped and got car 'Relayed' into Audi Garage. Lo and behold, oil pump tensioner failure. ££££££ and then some for the repair - still waiting for full costs. Contacted Audi UK Cust Care fairly helpful but did not ackowledge that there was a problem with the old 'chain tensioner'. However, my repair will include the fitment of the 'modified gear driven pump' as there are 'no spares for the other type'. The only reason you would make such a drastic design change is if there were failures which clearly there have been. Audi need to step up to the plate warranty or no warranty cover and have a recall plus reimburse all of us that have suffered from these failures. Mine has been Audi main dealer serviced since new as well. Coments, thoughts & support welcomed!!
    #48
  9. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    The only thing i can thinks of is, as said before - BBC Watchdog, or Small Claims Court.

    Watchdog managed to get Audi to admit to Pod failures on TT's and 3 Series Sport Alloy problems.

    If enough of us complain to Watchdog and forward on info from the forums (Audi-Sport, PistonHeads, etc, etc) they may make Audi take notivce!!

    Thoughts BLB owners...? :banghead::banghead::shrug:
    #49
  10. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    The letter I received dated 5 jan states 3 year and 60000 miles warrenty, then states they will look at issues individually, and under certain circumstances they may an offer of contribution, i.e goodwill.. They will look at age of vehicle, and whether purchased from audi and whether it has been serviced. so as i purchased outside audi network, they will offer fat zero. perhaps you might get something since you may fall into the above description.

    They say that they hope i can understand that "occasionally" parts do go wrong. LOL. judging by the number of cases i have read and continue to read about, i think it is definitely a few more cases than occasionally!!

    I suggest you send them an a letter to Audi UK, customer services, selectapost 29, Shefield S97 3FG.

    In terms of small claims court, i may be fecked as you would perhaps have to take them to court under sales of goods act. Small claims court also up to 5K

    My research so far on sales of goods act picked up this about sales of goods act.

    Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).
    • Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price and any description.
    • Aspects of quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and finish, durability and safety.
    • It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods do not conform to contract.
    • If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)
    • For up to six years after purchase (five years from discovery in Scotland) purchasers can demand damages (which a court would equate to the cost of a repair or replacement).

    However in my case, the contract i have is with whom a bought car from, this was a private seller, bought as seen. Therefore I think act does not apply to manufacturers. Any thoughts.

    However fellow BLB owner, why don't we all pick a week and send as many letter to all motor press and watchdog at the same time!!, any thoughts, as Godd 2 b a gooner says, we can start new threads in all forums we can find spreading the word, and perhaps write a letter to say the sum and get a feature in an article so we maximize the bad publicity and also collecting even more people who are could soon be affected!!!!!

    Any thoughts???
    #50
  11. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    There's now a sticky in General Motor Chat for this - Please make all BLB owners aware of this - There's a link for watchdog etc on it, i've sent in my complaint already. If we all do it, they'll act.

    Cheers,

    Gary.
    #51
  12. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    mags, as well as the tools, for example i think i will require in terms of tools

    1) an engine lift (i think i can hire from speedyhire
    2) perhaps the special tool for "locking" (i.e. holding) the balance shaft in position while we install the new chain and tensioner. Not sure what part number this is. or if it is definitely required
    3) crank holding tool to do the cambelt is this crankshaft lock T10050?
    4) Ball ended 5mm or 6mm allen key for the two sump bolts hidden in the bell housing. ( i have this already)
    5) do you need any of the camshaft locking tools or can you get away without them? i.e i think it is the T10115 tensioner locking pin
    6) wooden or rubber hammer
    7) razor/green scotch brite to clean sealing surfaces
    8 PB Blaster to help remove the oil seal flange, (not sure if this is just like wd 40???)

    In terms of parts
    i) timing belt and timing belt kit
    ii) chain and lower sprocket as per your picture and tensioner
    are there any gaskets or seals needing replacing or required for above chain installation cover?
    iii) synthetic engine oil
    iv) oil filter
    v) water pump
    vi) water pump gasket
    vii) Timing belt and kit
    viii) engine coolant
    ix) bolts N 911 213 01 not sure how many are required.
    #52
  13. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    Will do Gooner. is the general chat on this site?

    when did you send your letter and what did you say?

    my email address is boss_cat2@live.com

    John
    #53
  14. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned previously, anyone with a BLB engine should write to audi (if not done so already) and watchdog. I was thinking whether having some sort of template letter so there is more chance people will send it? The only problem with this is that Audi and Watchdog may think it's the same person? What do people think?

    I'd like to send a bit more of a detailed letter so would appreciate it if all those people that have had/currently having this issue, email me your names, car mileage, details of bills, costs and responses from Audi and, basically, a statement of what has happened on what dates. Email nathandotmailingatntlworlddotcom. Scans of receipts and responses much appreciated.

    It may seem a bit longwinded but sending a letter with factual specifics is more hard hitting and I don't want to use forum names for obvious reasons :) I also want Audi to visually see "CC: BBC Watchdog" on the letter.

    So far on audi-sport, Six Speed, Weggie, Mags and albarker01 have all had this issue, are there any more? and could those members email me all relevant details?
    #54
  15. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    Nathan,

    Haven't had the issue myself yet... My car has 5 months warranty left on it - But it the principal of it - My cars done 90k so i'm worried!

    We all bought Audi's for a reason - Quality....

    Hopefully if those that use other forums can post the link to the sticky we'll get somewhere, sooner or later.
    #55
  16. albarker01
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    albarker01 Member

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    Guys - I have been doing a bit of research! I have a copy of the VAG ETKA parts catalogue which is a mind of information. The chain style oil pump drive (P/N 03G 115 124) was/is fitted to the VW Passat, A4 and A6 vehicles. Engine codes that seem to be relevant are BHW(Passat) & Audi BLB, BNA, BRE, BRF & BPW (though this one has both the chain and spur drive). The BLB engine was fitted to A6 models from 07/04 to 11/05, A6 Avant from 06/05 to 11/05 and the A4 from 11/04 to 11/05. Looking at the photos below, my failure is exactly the same with the 'nylon' tensioner failure where the piston from the pump bears on it. Still awaiting news from my Audi dealer .... Will probably get them to take the big end shells off and examine (talked to their chief tech and he also said it might be worth looking at the camshafts - kerching £££!!) Agree that Audi UK should be sent letters but I would suggest that we go higher than that eg CEO of Audi. In the past I have always found it pays to go straight to the top on matters where Customer Service dither and open up their Beano comics all the time!!! Agree on the Watchdog approach for some broader publicity. BTW my A4 had a Main Dealer service plus cambelts & tensioner change last July (c 5K miles ago). My guess is that the design change was necessary because of the failure (projected or actual) of that 'steam driven' system - I am an aircraft mechanical engineer and am used to OEMs holding their hands up and saying we will pay for the repairs where there is a known issue. Where there is a known safety issue on aero engines we were obliged to issue directives etc and our equivalent of recalls all from a safety perspective. No real difference here. Oil pump failure in the fast lane of a motorway rapidly followed by engine siezure ...and so on. Forgive my ramblings and back to the real issue. This does not follow the 'Quality' ideal that Audi are pushing and they should hold their hands up. I will let you all know the results of my efforts and those of my garage. Al
    #56
  17. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    2 days in guys, and it seems we're getting momentum - I think it's down to all of us to search other forums and drum up support for this.

    Lets not let these guys screw us - Their customers - Over.
    #57
  18. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    Thought some more on this, I'm initially going to send a letter saying I'm concerned about this issue....make it appear that I've just come across it. No point going in with all guns blazing as I haven't contacted them before. Once I get the usual **** response I'll then send a long factual letter with information I have taken off the Internet. If they still don't respond adequately I will send *everything* to the CEO and again CC: Watchdog.

    Could someone confirm the customer services address and the CEO address for Audi UK? Is there a link to VW UK i.e.is there a holdings company that own both as the Passat's also have the issue?

    I would appreciate a hand with this, if someone could get users on other forums who do no frequent here to send me their stories then that saves me from having to register and post.

    I'll then keep a record of issues.

    For the record, my Audi comes out of warranty in March and have just done 50k. Gooner: If you could send me your details then my second letter can allude to your car as that's slapbang in the mileage expected to show a problem.
    #58
  19. jaygeezer871
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    jaygeezer871 Member

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    As fitted to my 56 plate 170 TDI ?
    #59
  20. albarker01
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    albarker01 Member

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    According to my ETKA parts catalogue the BRD engine has the revised spur gear drive for the oil pump so you should not be affected by the tensioner and chain gear issue. I'll do a swap with my A4 Avant!!!!! Rgds Al
    #60
  21. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    No mate - It's only BRB engines - The newer engines have a belt, rather than a chain.
    #61
  22. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    I've sent me first letter today (the semi-nice initial one) so I'll let you know how I get on although I don't have the problem (yet?) so am taking it from the avenue of concern.

    I've had an email from weggie, but nothing else. I need more than this otherwise I'll get laughed at by Audi! Come on fellaz!
    #62
  23. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    #63
  24. P Crr
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    P Crr Member

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    I to have a BLB engine (85k) with no problems. I have sent a mail to Watchdog as mentioned above.
    #64
  25. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    Hi Nathan, the link you added was actually developed by Oil hammer in USA> These guys are experts ad developed the change. check out the attached link,where the guys helped me out a bit (qos fan).

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=2779992

    There is another thread that has over 60 pages which this is the link

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=233651&page=63&highlight=balance shaft replacement
    , they also have questionnaire where over 200 people have completed.

    http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=202297&highlight=balance shaft

    There is probably undreds of issues about the chain system on this site. note passat and Audi TDi are the same.
    weggie
    #65
  26. chittychittybangbang
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    chittychittybangbang New Member

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    I totally agree. Camshafts is a big problem in the US but it's not as bad as an oil pump failure. I have also written a bit about this from the original writeups made by oilhammer and mogolf.

    part1
    http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/b5/balanceshaft _moduleReplace.htm
    part2
    http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q_how_to/b5/balance_shaft_module2.htm

    It's shown on a 2005 b5.5 VW Passat with BHW 2.0L TDI engine and has some more pics and details. If you click around you can also find a background FAQ on the oil chain problem so you don't have to read 60 pages to get the general idea. If you search youtube you'll find videos of noisy chains but keep in mind that a chain will be noisier than a gear setup.
    #66
  27. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    Was it yourself that prepared the fact sheets chitty? well impressed. People such as yourselves, MO Golf and Oil hammer are a credit to these forums and punters like me that have never even opened a bonnet, never mind getting my hands greasy.

    In two weeks we are going to try and replace the chain, timing belt and water pump. Without these notes as well as the extracts from manual, i dont think i would even contiplate this.
    #67
  28. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    I second that, the stuff OilHammer and Mo Golf have done is excellent. I just wish there was someone like that living near me so I can get it done by someone experienced.

    Well Audi should have my letter today. I would well advise them that because my car is in warranty and always been serviced by a dealer that they should come clean....but I doubt it. So far, the only person that has emailed me that has had the problem is weggie so I'm going to have to trawl and PM every person that has posted as I need specific, factual information otherwise I'll look a burk and Watchdog won't be interested.
    #68
  29. chittychittybangbang
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    chittychittybangbang New Member

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    Thanks for any compliments. Really though, I'm just a shadetree amateur mechanic who summarizes what's out there and clarifies what's in the service manual and other fourms. Almost all of my writeups are done from the manual and general experience but the balance shaft discovery and replacement is all those 2 guys who are professional mechanics. The reason I made my own writeup is because I update it regularly and no offense to the 1st .pdf writeup, adds clearer pictures in context with labels. As one example, one picture showing the order of bolt tightening is oriented the same as the service manual vs. the .pdf which shows it opposite. The order is the same across all but if you quickly glance at the .pdf picture it can be confusing and you could get messed up. I also added specific bolt torque specs and more basic details so that someone with less mechanical experience can do it.
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2010
    #69
  30. albarker01
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    albarker01 Member

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    Guys - Any idease how I can upload an attachment? I have a pdf copy of a A4 Technical Product Information leaflet (No 2013621/8 release date 27 Sep 07) relating to 'Flashing low Oil Pressure lights' on the 2.0 TDi engines. Makes interesting reading, much like the Passat one referred to below. Whilst this does relate predominantly to the spur gear oil pump version, it does include the BLB engine code and balance shaft problems. My view is that VAG have known about this since at least Sep 07 - hence this TPI!! No recall! No advisory to service centres. Not acceptable!!
    #70
  31. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    Message a mod - They got this as a sticky for me :thumbsup:
    #71
  32. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    Had a spare moment so thought I'd pop in and speak to my local dealer. Explained issue and, to be fair, fully understood where I was coming from. They said that they don't think they can get the replacement chain so would be a new shaft assembly. I asked about goodwilll and they tried but couldn't get any, Audi do not believe this to be a fault (I'm not surprised because a recall of this nature will cost them a fortune).

    I asked for the cost of fitting the new shaft assembly + cam belt + water pump + labour.....=.....£2196!!!!

    Alternatively I could get an extended warranty which is only £800 a year! But they do pay up if there is a problem. I enquired if the chain broke now (my car is still in warranty) if it would be fixed under warranty and was told it would. I've tried racking my brains for any way of breaking the chain but can't think of one.

    So, for interested parties the part numbers and costs of ETKA are:

    03G 103 295 AL - balancer shaft module with oil pump - £748.78
    03G 103 603 AH - oil sump with opening for oil level sensor - £84.94
    03G 105 212 D - timing gear - crankshaft - £28.58
    03G 103 305 C - drive gear - £20.72
    N 911 213 01 - hexagon head bolt (combi) - £2.04 x 4
    038 103 085 E - oil seal - £15.27
    N 909 775 02 - multi-point socket head bolt with collar - £1.72 x 2
    N 911 213 01 - hexagon head bolt (combi) - £2.04 x 4 - don't know why this is on twice, maybe a mistake
    D 176 404 A2 - silicone sealant - £15.44

    Total - £919.53 + VAT = £1080.45 parts only.

    I will keep you all updated.
    #72
  33. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    Anyone got any spare webspace we can compile some sort of simple web-site on. Was thinking about listing usernames, mileage, cars and details of problems along with parts, info sheets, contact details. Anyone?
    #73
  34. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    I note you have no problems, yet!, so i would sell if i were you!

    Did you Audi say how many hours to do the repair? and what rate, my dealer is 70 per hour some are 90 or even 100.

    For me i am changing the chain and tensioner in a week or so, but I am affected. Note the parts are available, i ordered them today from audi. Parts i think i need are as follows. Note some of these will be needed for the gear change as well, i.e oil and filter and coolant.

    In terms of parts Audi Price £
    1 timing belt and timing belt kit 138.39
    2 belt on its own, in case we don’t need the kit 41.36
    3 synthetic engine oil Triple R longlife 33.97
    4 oil filter 5.2
    5 water pump & water pump gasket 31.68
    6 water pump gasket
    7 engine coolant possibly 1 gallon size , 14.24
    8 bolts N 911 213 01 not sure how many are required. But go for 4 only 50 p 2
    9 bolts N 911 213 02 go for 2
    10 Chain - 03G 115 230 16.85
    11 Gear - 03G 103 333 E 8.02
    12 Tensioner - 03G 115 124 D 39.17
    13 For above chain and lower sprocket and tensioner are there any gaskets or seals needing replacing or required for above chain installation cover? £15.27
    14 do we need a sump plug seal?, £1.14
    15 do we need oil pump chain assembly instant gasket and gasket sealers? £15.44
    TOTAL £321.37


    I also see that Audi say no known problem, did you show them the article from Audi driver that said there was a problem?

    As for web sites, my wife said try "wordpress" , happy to help if required. did you send any more info to watchdog?
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2010
    #74
  35. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    I suspect that the technicians at certain dealers say that the parts are difficult to get hold of (changing like for like) because you are just gaining yourself another 70k miles or so. On the conspiracy front they get more money putting the full shebang in.

    I haven't raised any details with Audi yet, all of that including information on cars that have had this problem will be in round 2.

    I will contact Watchdog but I need a response from Audi first.

    I would sell but to get a car a year older will cost me more money that it would to replace the oil shaft assembly and that's for cars will less in them and I'm really stubborn, why should I....Audi should pay.

    Will keep you updated as things progress.
    #75
  36. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    Chaps, something else that could help, just found this on the VOSA website, there is a page about vehicle recalls and it states:

    "If you believe you have experienced a safety defect due to a deficiency in the design or construction of your automotive product, please contact VOSA on 0117 9543300 or complete a report form or email vsb@vosa.gov.uk so that we may assess whether or not we can take the matter forward."

    I suggest those people that have had/having the problem MUST contact them. As far as I am concerned it is a safety aspect if you are travelling on the motorway at 70mpg and the chain tensioner breaks. Because this tensioner is never checked in a service schedule then it's likely to snap at some point.

    The relevant page is:

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/vosa/onlineservices/vehiclerecalls/vehiclerecalls.htm

    The link includes a reporting form. I'd use it myself but can't provide any photographs or details as I haven't had the issue....yet.

    Please, please can people who have had this problem contact them?
    #76
  37. Good 2 B A Gooner
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    Good 2 B A Gooner Member

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    Top man Nath :icon_thumright:
    #77
  38. jwhat
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    jwhat Member

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    I got this quote from a dealer over here in Ireland

    balance shaft unit 03G103295AK €890.07
    bolts to be ordered also
    n 106014 02 x3 €1.20ea
    n 911234 01 x1 €0.61
    n 909775 02 x1 €1.08
    n 911046 01 x1 €0.70
    sump sealer €25
    all plus vat
    i asked for labour cost to fit and was quoted 4.5hrs at €70 +vat per hr

    I won't be getting it done yet though.

    I'm also booked in for a free check-up on Friday in a new audi dealership opening in Dublin, and I told them I was worried about the blb engine thing so we'll see what they say.
    #78
  39. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    jwhat I think they are kidding you, my dealer said 11 hrs, another say 1500 incl parts, others here got £2000 incl parts, 4 hrs no way. The whole front end has to come off, taking the chain off 1- 2 hrs and the top sprocker has to be heated to 300 to 400 degrees and special tool to come off, if it does.

    Also the parts do not include for new oil, filter, gaskets, also if you are doing this you would be daft not doing timing belt and tensioner, with water pump also. It need about £200 or so of parts, i know as i just bought this stuff and am doing the chain re-placement and all the the other studd abve and hope to do it in 2 days, with a futehr day booked off incase i need to buy bits.

    try http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=757454&d=0&nmt= for more details.
    #79
  40. jwhat
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    jwhat Member

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    I'd do the timing belt etc, I was just curious as to what it cost so I asked and that's what I was told.

    And the service guy in the garage knew about the blb engine problem, and then blamed forums like this for blowing it out of proportion! I laughed down the phone at him then and he proceeded to then tell me audi didn't think there was a problem.
    #80

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