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2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 14, 2012]
    Remember that a lot of car recalls start where the manufacturer denies it. This makes business sense. However, when things escalate then a lot of manufacturers have to officially start a recall. The recent french car brake problem has been known about since 2004 but has only recently become officially a recall.

    Audi and all their operatives have to be very careful when answering questions like "Have you had many cars in with XYZ fault" as any reference to "We do get quite a lot" could be taken as an admission of guilt. I do understand Audi staying well clear of this one as to fix the fault costs a fortune in labour never mind in parts.

    Yeah, I'm making it up. The fact that this thread is way long just goes to show it's all hot air. Sarcasm aside, how do you know that these cars for sale do not have the rattling pre-symptoms sometimes shown by BLB failures? And how many people will sell bust BLB oil balancer shaft cars on Autotrader?

    To sound harsh, what good will a facebook page do? I know Audi UK operatives do read forums, I doubt they would bother reading a facebook page which is a poor relation to a full forum. I have been a member on these forums a while, I've had my BLB changed over but I am not a member of the facebook page so hence means very little, in my opinion.

    Yes, you do know the answer because ELSA/ETKA will tell you all you need to know. In fact, one owner who had the issue was a parts testing engineer for an aircraft parts manufacturer and it was interesting to hear what he thought of such components.

    May I just point out that you are the one posting in this thread so if you want to be in denial then that is your choice, in which case don't read anything.

    As a final note before I get thoroughly bored, there are several posts on this thread made by mechanics who clearly know their stuff. Their knowledge and experience surpasses mine and I daresay yours.

    It's rare I come across posts that, to me, appear troll-like but this gets added to the list.

    The end.
  2. Shaun
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    Shaun Member

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    [Feb 14, 2012]
    Cant understand why my post was "troll-like".Just giving my point of view on this problem,sorry it differs from yours.
    I hope you win your fight with audi and one day manage to justify spending 2k to fix this problem before it might have occured.
  3. SHEP M
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    SHEP M New Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Hi Shaun,
    Please note just for an example, when my A4 oil pump packed up at just over 60k, I fixed it privately. Only TPS (the parts supplier for VAG) will have an accurate record of replacements. I sourced the new KKK turbo from Turbo Technics. You should also note that when I sold the car I did not disclose that the car had had an oil pump failure. The problem may only occur in a small percentage of VAG 2.0 tdi's, but when your engine fails through a manufacturing/design fault you will start shouting about it! Please also not that I spoke to my Audi dealer about the issue when it occurred, asked Audi uk about subsidising the repair. Spoke to the Audi dealer again to express my dissatisfaction later. Asked the Audi dealer for information while doing the job privately. When I went in again a few months ago and asked about it, they said that they had not heard of oil pump failure!!! They Lie! They have a policy of denial! They cannot admit they have cocked up as it could cost them billions. This occurs in Passats and Alhambras too. I hope you get lucky Shaun and don't get this problem, but keep listening for that chain before it lets go.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  4. Shaun
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    Shaun Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Well Shep if it does happen to me it will be the biggest "I told you so" on here from a couple of members, lol!

    Another question to those in the know tho,Why do the oil pumps not have problems on the A3,Golf etc? Can these pumps not be used on the a4?
  5. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Not sure, although I suspect it's something to do with the engine being mounted the other way.
  6. Chrisd1983
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    Chrisd1983 Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Well after reading this thread, it has been enough to put me off buying an A4 now! AFTER I finally found the perfect S Line!! Think I'm going to stick with BMW!
  7. smithy30
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    smithy30 New Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Hello Men

    just after some guidance on pricing as my oil pump and turbo have just blown , £1750 for the lot plus fitting and VAT

    is there chance of engine problems to follow

    please help
  8. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    That's a good price if it involves changing over to a gear driven pump. Usually the turbo is first to suffer. It can bugger the engine but this depends on how it failed, if it was driven for a bit after the pump stopped supplying oil then the engine will have seized.
  9. smithy30
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    smithy30 New Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    will check with the garage about the gear driven pump.

    the engine has not seized (thank u god ) , whats the trends with the engines after the turbos and pumps are replaced ??

    should i be looking to to get rid ?

    thanks for reply
  10. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    I have just received yet another nice letter from a Mr Martin Sander the Audi UK CEO on the subject of my failed oil pump/balance shaft assembly.
    This is a really helpful man as inadvertenly he has advised me that when I seek a replacement for my Audi Avant 2.0 tdi I should for peace of mind look for a vehicle made outside of the VAG group of companies.

    I would just like to say thanks very much for this advice Mr Sander as I for one will be doing just that
  11. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Feb 15, 2012]
    Hello Smithy ,
    I am sure others will step in here but once you have had the repair work carried out I don't believe there's any real evidence to say the engine will give you anymore grief. One point to add is that on my own engine I was advised to repalce the bearing shells while the engine was"down" as there was evidence of premature wear. This cost me an additional £200 that I didn't query, perhaps I should have ?
    Good luck with the repair work, I am sure it will all work out well albeit damned expensive !
  12. SHEP M
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    SHEP M New Member

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    [Feb 16, 2012]
    After replacing the pump/balancer assembly and turbo my engine was as good as before. It was an accumulation of other defects that finally pushed me to get rid of the Audi.I don't suppose my engine did more than 100 yds after the oil pressure warning came on. I towed it back.
  13. Shaun
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    Shaun Member

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    [Feb 16, 2012]
    I have come to the conclusion that there seems to be a similar amount of problems with the gear system (hex shaft) as the chain system. I dont think there is any concrete evidence to suggest that the gear system is more reliable as there seem to alot of low mileage cases of the gear system failing also.Then on the other hand my blb has a chain still not failed (100k),and I have heard of lots of other high milers with chains perfectly fine.

    It just seems that the balance shaft on both is the main problem.

    I think the chain system you are at least from what I have read in most cases you get a bit of rattling noise from the chain thus giving you warning of any problems.

    If mine goes I will be replacing with less costly chain setup ( powermax engineering version) as I see very little benifit in getting the gear version that also seems have its problems. If it lasts me another 100k then great!

    I would suggest to any BLB owners to get the best oil you can put in to protect the engine if the worst does happen and change it every 6000 miles. Listen out for any warning signs of chain noise.


    All this talk of " DONT TOUCH A BLB ENGINE!" is a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. All the the A4 B7 2.OTDI engines have faulty poorly designed oil pump setup some worse than others,they may fail they may not. There are loads of posts in this thread relating failure of the new gear system as well as blb and various other engine codes.

    Cheers.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  14. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Feb 16, 2012]
    theres roughly 7 b7s with the blb engine in them that come to our garage.
    ive changed each and everyone with the same thing/symtoms.
    as i remember them i think 4 failed on the road with oil lights etc.
    the other 3 weve had them in for service and pointed out to them the chain noise and the problems/costs of leaving it.
    only one of these weve had to change the turbo on relating to the oil pressure problem the same one needed new big bearing shells.

    highest milage one ive changed was about 120 odd k.

    your kidding yourself if you think this problem wont effect your car. its a design fault. they all came off the production line with the same weaknesses. whether they fail at 80k or 120k is pure luck............. but it will happen. if theres no evidence of yours being changed in the past and if theres no symtoms as yet then stop driving it and sell it as soon as possible.......... or be prepared for a big bill.
    as ive pointed out before the oil pressure sensor is sh1t and comes on at too lower pressure to provide protection and because of the ecu's massive delay dosent come on straight away. sometimes, especially if your on the motorway by the time your oil light comes on its too late for your turbo and bearing shells.

    say at 4000 rpm the oil pressure should be 60 psi. oil light only comes on at say 18 psi...... you could have had 20-25 psi for the last 30 miles.....
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2012
  15. Shaun
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    Shaun Member

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    [Feb 16, 2012]
    You Clearly didnt read my post very well. I never said that my oil pump wont fail. My point was that THEY ALL FAIL even the new gear design. Might as well tell every 2.0 tdi B& owner to sell now before they fail. Cant see our cars being worth much then
  16. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Feb 17, 2012]
    Yes there are owners with engines later than the BLB's suffering hex failure, however, the BLBs have a higher failure rate as they not only have the same problematic shaft, they also have that daft bit of plastic on the chain. So engines later than BLB are better off because they don't have a chain but they do have shaft failures.

    Oh, and to remind people I had contact from a petrol B7 owner where the balancer shaft died on the motorway!
  17. oxfordgarage
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    oxfordgarage New Member

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    We are Audi Vw seat skoda Specialists in Darlington Co Durham..........Ref these oil pump failures we dont even bother to advise the customer to change the oil pump its a waist of time the damage has already been done! I am afraid its a new engine and turbo this ensures the problem does not come back to bite you! We only ever did one it lasted 8 months so not worth the hassle to the customer or ourselves. so dont go down the route of just replacing the oil pump or balance shaft it will come back to bite you!

    Regards
    Kieron
    oxford garage
  18. eddscott
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    eddscott Member

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    [Feb 28, 2012]
    How can you tell what engine you have?

    My mother has a 57 140 and I have an 07 170.
  19. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Feb 29, 2012]
    The engine code will be on a sticker in the front of your service book .
  20. ZeeSaffa
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    ZeeSaffa Member

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    [Feb 29, 2012]
    Or in your log book.
  21. VidalBaboon
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    VidalBaboon New Member

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    [Mar 1, 2012]
    Hi, I have a VW Passat 140Tdi with a BKP engine. It uses a gear driven pump so luckily don't have the additional chain woes. I have suffered the dreaded hex drive failure.

    I bought a new hex drive, but there seems to be a little bit of play when the hex shaft is inserted into the balance shaft. Is this normal? Will I get away with this, or will I need to spend £1k+ on a new balance assembly? I really hope not, as I haven't fully recovered from the wallet raping from last year. This is the 4th time in 6 months the car has been back to a garage with major component failure. Grr.
  22. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 1, 2012]
    I believe some play is quite normal but others vastly more qualified to comment no doubt will chip in here, come in Murran ?
  23. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 1, 2012]
    I would have thought any play would be detrimental and end up rounding the edges thus causing the problem again.
  24. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 1, 2012]
    I totally agree with you Wrath but there are posts ( I am sure ?) in this thread where I have read that even when new the replacement kits have exhibited "play" between the components and it is indeed this "play" that causes rounding of the hex shafts.
    I am sure Murran can add a valued comment here as and when he catches up on his reading .........................
  25. VidalBaboon
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    VidalBaboon New Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    Well, I took the assembly to a Tooling Engineers, they oversized a hex for me by 0.0004" to make it nice and snug and free of most play.

    Cost me £60.

    Hopefully the Turbo hasn't crapped itself.
  26. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    I had my bearing shells replaced when my sump was off so it MAY be a good idea to have these checked before its put back together.
    Good luck with the Turbo, you will hopefully get away without replacing it .
  27. Ianb
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    Ianb New Member

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    [Mar 5, 2012]
    Just bought a 58 plated B8 Avant using the 143TDI unit.

    Do they suffer the same woes with the shaft/oil pump or turbo or they a completely new design?
  28. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 6, 2012]
    This is a great question as there are a lot of people on here perhaps thinking of buying the next genration Audi 2.0 tdi asking the very same thing.
    As for me NEVER AGAIN,Japanese next time no more Audis after the shoddy treatment we have been given with the B7 latent design defects and next time grandpa is over Dresden I hope he does a better job !
  29. sh0cked
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    sh0cked New Member

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    [Mar 8, 2012]
    Hey guys,

    I've been lurking round here a while now but always held of posting which I now am really sorry for cause I need your help!

    I bought a 2007/57 A4 S-Line I believe its a special edition and has the newer version of the TDI engine in that is also in the newer B8 models?! Anyway the engine code is BRD :)

    Sunday evening my DIS system started going mental flashing "oil pressure" at me and shortly after the glowplug light started blinking and the car went into limp mode.

    I nursed the car home (about 3 miles roughly) not stressing the engine or anything checked the oil levels despite the time (about 7pm and dark) and everything appeared fine... till I came across this thread.

    Break it to me gentle guys.. how badly are my testicles and wallet going to hurt from this?
  30. matthew999
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    matthew999 Member

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    [Mar 8, 2012]
    hello chap,

    Sorry to say i think its gonna hurt loads, you should stop straight away. I also have a brd 170hp engine so am just waiting for the inevitable.

    Could you share your millage, and weather it is a 140 or 170 with us please?

    good luck

    cheers

    matt
  31. sh0cked
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    sh0cked New Member

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    [Mar 8, 2012]
    It's 170 I am lead to believe miles up around the 110 mark. Normal FASH mind and a timing belt done about 2 months ago.

    Any of you guys had much luck getting Audi to admit/contribute to the situation? to what degree?
  32. sh0cked
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    sh0cked New Member

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    [Mar 8, 2012]
    Gents,

    Any help, before I panic myself into a shallow grave?
  33. peroni
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    peroni New Member

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    [Mar 9, 2012]
    Hello everyone

    I am a worried owner of a BLB 2.0TDI engine, which sits in 2005 A6 S line.
    Having gone through all of pages on this thread, which I must say have compiled into a very interesting read, and at the same time just coming up to 80k miles on dash, a 'silent alarm' has been triggered...shall i say...

    But, rather than waiting for what seems unavoidable with these chain set-ups, idea came to me to make a first move!

    From what I gathered, there is 2 things that can go wrong, either the plastic tensioners or the hexagonal bit that turns an oil pump, right?

    So, the idea is to buy the tensioner kit with hex bit, chain and the rest (ebay item: 251011332663) and replace the existing one.

    The problem is, this sounds too easy to be true so any experience, advice or thoughts on why this would or would not work much appreciated...


    Shame I found this thread now that I've just done cambelt kit service at 75k...but hey, it's all swings and roundabouts...
  34. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 9, 2012]

    I am now on letter number 6 to Audi on his very issue and I am expecting an invite to the Audi UK Xmas party next year as I am on almost first name terms with the CEO.
    Jokes over the situation is IF you have a FASH then the DEALER MAY give you a goodwill contribution for any associated repair work. I say MAY because its by no means a given and the latest Audi UK stance is if after 60,000 or 3 years and it fails the onus was on the owner to have taken out the EXTENDED AUDI warranty.
    If your circumstances are any different to the above Audi UK will just keepy denying they have a design with a latent defect and threaten as you may , seek legal advice etc you really haven't a "leg to stand on" as the Audi Guarantee is 60,000 miles or three years, whichever comes first.
  35. delc83
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    delc83 New Member

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    [Mar 9, 2012]
    Hi People

    I've had the dreaded oil pressure light come on, chain snapped! 2005, BLB, 140bhp, 70k on the clock.
    Had the conversion done from chain to the gear driven oil pump, turbo survived! Found a guy in Coventry, Mike: 07970478931.
    Got the part of him for £500, and had my mechanic fit it for me. I think Mike said he would do it for around £750, but i couldn't get my car to him in Coventry. Helpful guy, just thought I would share the contact details with you guys.
    I'm just dreading whats going to happen next, it like a time bomb ticking, waiting to explode.

    Thanks
    Del
  36. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Mar 9, 2012]
    Hello Del,
    What parts do you get for £500?
    My parts ( new Sump to accomodate the new geared unit , Sprocket Gear and the Oil Pump Balance Shaft Assy plus all the anciilaries ) was circa £1100 ( and VAT was extra) . I can't see how these can be bought for £500, are they used parts ?

    Paul B7
  37. Steve1910
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    Steve1910 New Member

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    [Mar 11, 2012]

    I have an A4 2.0 TDI BLB 2005 (55Plate)Got car Nov 2010 82000 on clock now got 92900 New cam belt fitted 76000
    Drove around corner no warning no oil light, engine cut out like stall. Had car towed to ind garage engine seized top half OK
    got replacement 2nd hand engine also BLB (out of a 2007 done 44000) currently being replaced not sure about turbo hoping its alright.
    Est cost about £1600
  38. Steve1910
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    Steve1910 New Member

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    [Mar 11, 2012]
    Paul can you get me an invite to the Xmas party ........ I would like to ask them why my engine seized on my bullet proof Audi Engine
  39. peroni
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    peroni New Member

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    [Mar 12, 2012]
    I phoned my nearest Audi in West London this morning and they quoted me £1066 for parts + 6 hours of labour @ £130p/h, so the total bill comes to a juicy £1846! This is for a complete replacement from a chain to a gear driven module.

    Noww...the earliest thay could get hold of parts is 23rd April, so i guess there's a queue:think:

    I threw a few technical questions at them, about the hex shaft specifically, and they state that hex that comes with the parts now is an improved, modified more durable version...

    What were your experiences, has anyone bought or seen one of these new modules recently?
    Anyone that can positively confirm that the hex shaft has been upgraded and redesigned to a more durable, stronger one?
    Did they put these modified units in later models, post BLB era ones...?


    Any feedback appreciated!

    Best of luck to everybody with this...
  40. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Mar 12, 2012]
    That's a nice price believe it or not.

    No. The most recent parts came after the B7 finished on the production line so all unmodded B7's have the same shaft problems, just the BLB have the chain tensioner fault as well.
    It would be interesting to know what parts are used on the Seat Exeo or whether a few years down the line they start having the same problems.

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