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2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

Discussion in 'Audi S4/A4/A4 Cab (B7 Chassis)' started by P Crr, Nov 1, 2009.

  1. Wrath
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    Wrath Well-Known Member

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    [Jul 28, 2011]
    Yep, the 1.9 is fine.
  2. IGI
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    IGI Member

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    [Aug 1, 2011]
    Been reading through this post as we had a 2006 2.0tdi BRD engined A4 avant in the workshop with youve guessed it oil light on and no oil pressure

    On removal of sump and oil pump assembly it was clear that the hex shaft had rounded off thus not turning the oil pump !
    First time ive come across this.... had heard of the problems with the earlier chain driven units
    Looks like poor design is at fault as a tempory repair we removed hex shaft and turned it round... the rounded end sits deep into the balance shaft and the non rounded end is now into the oil pump !
    Car fired up no oil light and healthy oil pressure
    Hello auctions :)
    Id be wary of any of the 2.0 tdi engines
  3. alfie155
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    alfie155 Member

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    [Aug 1, 2011]
    hi raff, let me know how you get on as im having the exact same problem, i susspect it could be the injecters?

    think im going to stop reading this thread as its making me feeling phyically sick!!!! ive just bought a 2.0 tdi 140 with the bre engine and to know these too can also have the same problem??? 130k full audi history and no sign its happend or been done already (gulp)

    its feels to b a timebomb wating to go off and i shouldnt be feeling this because its suppose to be a f**king audi!!!! the german, the king of solid reliability!!! in my opineon the B7 best shape thay did but stuffed it and turned it into a more expensive alfa romeo
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  4. Stink
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    Stink Member

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    [Aug 2, 2011]
    Found a 55 plate 140 TDI Avant which is on 145k been told by the dealer that the Engine code is BDH, been reading though tons of posts regarding this problem anyone know if the BDH code is also prone to this issue ? :)

    *edit*

    Just doen a HPI check as im wanting to go view the car tomorrow and it turns out it is a BLB engine, think i will have to probe the dealer a bit further on this one.

    For those who have had the work done is there any know limit on how long this fix will last? or is it just better to find another car to look at! Every car ive looked at so far im paraniond to hell about some bloody issue :( by the soudns of things the safer bet is just to look at 1.9
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  5. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Aug 3, 2011]
    im my experience of working on vag the last 10 years as a job, id entierly avoid 2l units.
    from these oil pump drives, chain failures, injectors packing up, misfires, throttle bodys packing up, egr flaps falling off......
    from someone who has to fix these turds near enough everyday..... i really i wouldnt bother.

    i drive a bmw that will be celibrating its 30 birthday next year, that should tell you something.
  6. ellwoodblues
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    ellwoodblues brokensprung burke unteknik

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    [Aug 4, 2011]
    evening all. well my newly modified balance assembly is working fine, but my turbo didnt survive the last failure.. the turbo mainshaft snapped in half on the m40 coming back from the cotswolds...that"l teach me lol...so if yo get a whooo noise or a high pitched whistling under load, go get it checked..i was lucky cos i realised what happened and killed the engine quickly...the lady wife wasnt impressed having to sit among the bugs and wasps up the hard shoulder bank...she said its an audi...why does it keep breaking..... well audi, why DOES it keep breaking?????..i dont thrash it , it has the best of everything, so it must be your fault.. even my old mum said your car always comes bottom in the reliability charts...i was too embarrased to reply...again... much love everyone
  7. alfie155
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    alfie155 Member

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    [Aug 4, 2011]
    and yet thay still fetch for strong money! audis have had issues and faults since the b6 shape first come out and is just getting worse! even the b8 has issues so what are we paying for? obveasely NOT its reliabilty! the four rings? fashion status?
  8. ellwoodblues
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    ellwoodblues brokensprung burke unteknik

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    [Aug 14, 2011]
    evening all.., well im back on the road... one lovely new turbo later...at least its stopped whining and smoking now lol...all due to the lovely balance shaft rounding off again...come on audi, how bout some compo...its only my third time ...changed the oil in the auto tiptronic box also...how can oil be a hundred quid???... i know it sounds like im a complainer , but its my third turbo, flywheel, oil pump failure etc ...and i havent even mentioned my heater matrix yet...i had to change that myself...it was do it or freeze to death...much love everyone
  9. herbie
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    herbie Member

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    [Aug 14, 2011]

    Blimey what rotten luck. Think I would have given up with the car after the first time it happened!
  10. inigolee
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    inigolee New Member

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    [Aug 18, 2011]
    I was dragged of the a1 on Tuesday night, indy garage looked at my 08/ A6 20l TDI multitronic. The oil pump has gone and its very expensiv, hopefully turbo is OK no smoking. The car is 3 years and 3 months old so just out of warranty. Should Audi be paying, Its already had £7K worth of warranty work for auto box and associated bits. ALways been a VW group fan and very pissed of. WHat can I do/ what result should I expect from Audi, how common a problem is this?
  11. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 18, 2011]
    Hi Guys,

    Is there a rattle when cold and warm?

    I have a 2.0 blb and a rattle on cold start up that does sound really suspect but after 20 mins you cant hear it, I presume if it was the balance shaft chain it would rattle all the time?

    Cheers
  12. ellwoodblues
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    ellwoodblues brokensprung burke unteknik

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    [Aug 19, 2011]
    hi inigo...sadly this is very common..its a design fault in the oil pump drive...dont expect anything from audi tho..the dealers are all franchised and dont want to know when the warranty is up and cant make any money..if you stopped the engine on the dot when the oil pump went , you may get away with the lesser cost ...thousand for the oil pump and balance shaft assembly...600 for a turbo...plus fitting etc etc etc... hopefully the intercooler will survive..(250)...bet you wish you had bought a kia or a vauxhall now...im a bit cynical but its happened to me 3 times now......never so much as a cent from audi..they even tried to blame me once lolol
  13. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    A bit desperate for some info now guys, The rattling noise when cold on my 2.0 blb is getting really bad now.

    Its fine after 20 minutes and cant hear a thing but i really need to know if when you have balance shaft failure if it rattles all the time or at certain times.
    Again this only happens when cold for about 20 minutes

    Spent £500 on it so far fixing other problems and am simply running out of money:(
  14. B5NUT
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    B5NUT Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    I would get it checked out ASAP, you could end up with a dead engine & turbo, not worth the risk.
  15. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    Ive had it checked by 2 mechanics B5nut, First said its DMF and the second said its the Aircon.

    It only rattles first thing in the morning.

    Only thing that makes me lean towards DMF is when the wife pulled away in it this morning "at clutch bite" the rattle got 5 X worse.

    If you rev it the noise also go's away it only rattles at cold idle, I have contacted Audi and they say it could have either chain or spur driven shaft as the car was a 12/12/2005 build.

    They also want £645 + VAT to just check it:( :(

    The wife is going to kill me as i spent all our savings on it:(
  16. ellwoodblues
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    ellwoodblues brokensprung burke unteknik

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    hi buddy.. my flywheel is rattling now (3rd one) it tends to clatter when started and worse when its warm and you stop and start again...my aircon failed quite early and its quite distinctive clattering..sometimes changes when you switch it on and off....also does your power steering judder....its a classic sign that the small clutch assembly on the front of the alternator has fallen apart( the cheaper of the two)..that rattles like a pig on smack...come to think of it , theres been a lot of rattling.lol i went to essex one day, then northern scotland the next before i found out the alternator clutch had gone...small shiney swarf around the pully at the front is a dead giveaway...good luck with the wife...
  17. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    Thanks for that info ellwoodblues, much appreciated.

    I will be putting up a video in the next few days of when the engine is cold and when its warm so you can hear the difference.
    The mechanic i use charges £35 ph how many hours work you guys reckon to strip down the engine and check the balance shaft chain ?

    Even if it turns out to be the DMF i dont think i can own the car without knowing the state of the balance shaft.
  18. B5NUT
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    B5NUT Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    When you say it's been checked, are you talking about dropping the subframe and removing the sump? That is the only way your going to know 100% I've got a BRE engine code and I'm getting that done in the next couple of weeks, as I want to be sure everything is ok.
  19. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 23, 2011]
    No its not been checked yet, but im the same as you in that i want to get it checked...i actually want to see the parts with my own eyes to put my mind at rest.

    What is your qoute for the strip down? or how many hours you reckon it takes so i can get a idea where im at.
    Forgot to add that whats really annoying is that although it is a blb engine it was first registered on december 2005 so it should have the new gear system but Audi cant tell as etka lists both parts for my car.
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2011
  20. ellwoodblues
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    ellwoodblues brokensprung burke unteknik

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    [Aug 24, 2011]
    morning all. mine took an hour and a bit to strip , sump off etc( undertray dropped off in the snow, never to be seen again).you can then see the balance assembly and oil pump...the gears or chain is visible at this point..unbolt assembly and find out the hex shaft is rounded off in the balance shaft side.....if you get the new parts , dont be shocked when it feels as slack....thets what they feel like..the brand new fraudi parts cost a grand and feel like the old ones that are faulty....thats why my friend modified mine to fit properly.....if you buy the shaft separately its a fiver...lololol....mine was registered in dec 05 and its a bre engine...your build date is on the door hinges....ive worked on cars recently with brand new plates but are 18 m0nths old...tut tut chrysler...usually doesnt happen with audi cos you usually waiting 3 months for delivery...unless the fraudi dealer changed the plates when it went unsold from 05 to 55...they do that all the time...good luck..dont look up until the oil is drained properly :blackrs4:
  21. B5NUT
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    B5NUT Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Aug 24, 2011]
    Will be doing the work myself with help from a mate, so very little cost other than beers and some new bolts, gasket and sealent. If the pump and the shaft look in any way iffy then they are bening replaced (may even change them anyway as Audi reveised the pump & shaft late last year)
  22. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Aug 24, 2011]



    Wow if you can get to the balance shaft in under 2 hours i will be well chuffed with that, I thought it was a big job that took several hours.
    Im still hoping to find the gear mechanism fitted even though its a blb and will then just replace the shaft and hex thingy.
  23. weggie
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    weggie Member

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    [Aug 24, 2011]
    It took me over 15 hours, the whole front end has to come off, then the sub frame, you need an engine lift as well, not sure how this could be done in 1-2 hrs, even taking the 16 bolts off the sump took 2 hrs especially the last hidden one next to gearbox, you also need a special hex tool long enough to do this.

    If you are doing it, you might also consider doing timing belt, if you are close to mileage limit 75K or 140K , then it needs done in any case so doing it now will save you £400 later on!!!

    Then it took a day to put back together!!

    Murdo
  24. SHEP M
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    SHEP M New Member

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    [Aug 26, 2011]
    I am aware that this quick fix has been done before and does work. I think it may be possible to get the hex shaft out without dismantling the pump / balancer assembiy if you know what you are doing.... I didn't. The rest of the £800 plus VAT assembly is perfectly fine, just the end of a £1 hex shaft. Cut the bent end off an Allen Key and you would probably have a part!! If you do take the assembly apart, the timing tool for the balancer shafts cost just £12. The meshing gears at the end of the balancer shafts have a fixed amount of backlash. The new Idler Gears are coated with a varnish. You torque them tight and the varnish wear off to give the correct amount of backlash. I think they are about £70, could be wrong though.

    As an asside........
    I have available a used (61000 mile) Oil pump / Balancer assembly. If you want to turn the shaft or have a new one manufactured it will be fine. You can buy the Coated Idler gear (mentioned above) as a spare. I think you also have to have the timing belts off and remove the drive gear on the end of the crank shaft. I have read that this requires heat, strength, good luck and A&E on standby.
    If its any good to anybody ....make me an offer. pci@gxn.co.uk
    You will need the modified shape sump too if converting from BLB chain driven, £150 or so I think.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2011
  25. SHEP M
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    SHEP M New Member

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    [Aug 26, 2011]
    My saga has been going on for a couple of months but is now over..wooohooo.
    Replaced oil pump / balancer assembly with a new one on my 2007 BRD engine with 61000 miles.
    On testing a month ago, power seemed fine, no smoke or any ill effects, except for the faint "wooo" noise on turbo boost and overrun. This got progressively louder. Removed air ducts and stuck a probe camera into the turbo. I could see scoring from the from veins. I know there should be some end float, but this was floppy. Sent turbo off for assessment / refurb. Assessment...veins knackered, casing knackered, shaft knackered, bearings knackered. Ie nothing left to refurb.
    £1000 new KKK turbo fitted and the car runs really well. I recon it has improved by a few MPG!.
    This car was shut down as soon as the big red warning came up, it was doing 40mph on a country lane at the time, no real stress on it.
    I know just how fast they spin, but thing thing was seriously fubar. It was silent before the red light event.
  26. mearnsA4
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    mearnsA4 New Member

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    [Sep 10, 2011]
    1[SUP]st[/SUP] time posting her and sorry 2 hear others are having the same 2.0TDI problem but not surprised…and not that this adds anything new but 4 the record…


    Have a4 2.0TDI 170ps s-line SE Quattro 07plate. Few months back had the oil pump drive thing go; a90 duel carriageway heading into the granite city approx. 58,000 miles. Rac’d to local audi: yes oil pressure problem; very rare for this sir etc. as you have all no doubt heard. They replaced oil pump £121 and carrier shaft £2.53…!!!!!!! checked balance shaft assembly and said seemed ok, new oil, filter, labour etc…fired car up, ran ok, healthy oil pressure good to go. End result £630.


    Not very happy at all in view of the serious nature of the problem but after reading these many posts (and others on various forums) I feel very lucky to have got away with the turbo intact and “cheap” repair bill…at least so far... Car has done around 2000 miles since…
    Had other stuff go wrong: egr valve replaced; failed sensor (forget which one but limp mode and recovery as on a90 again); broken rear coil spring (ok, that may have been down to terrible condition of NE Scotland roads) and air con fault code when in for oil pump job. Also heard scary tales of fuel injector failure and engine shut down on motorways etc.


    Spent a fair bit on this car (based on reputation) to last 6-8 years or something but falling to bits at 4 years! My 1st audi experience and although i love the car to drive the reliability is not what i expected...
  27. raffhussain
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    raffhussain Member

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    [Sep 10, 2011]
    Hey alfie, I know how u feel. At the mo the cars running fine n I'm living with the vibration on idle. Just pissed that it could go all wrong at anytime. The issue I am having that I can't seem to get any answers for is shudder at low revs 2nd or 3rd gear. Like the car misfires or sumat. It only happens sometimes but wen I does its annoying. I Also forgot to mention the car smokes quite a bit when I put my foot down. Don't want to give it to stealers cuz they don't know ****. think I'm gna give into a specialists to have a look at. See if they can tell me what the vibration on idle , smoking and the shudder is. The list just keeps getting bigger.lol. Can't be DMF causing the vibration as I've had it changed a couple months ago. If any1 has any suggestions pls post. Thanks
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2011
  28. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Sep 10, 2011]
    Raffhussain it seems most blb's have some vibration at idle, even from new.
    Your first problem of smoke on acceleration and juddering were the same as mine, i cleaned out the EGR ( most important part to clean is the little flap ) and that totally got rid of the smoke and juddering.

    The AIR CON compressor has also gone on mine and that caused the car to shake more than it should at idle...To test this take off the front belt and start the car and see if the vibration dies down, it can also be one of the other pulleys faulty.
  29. raffhussain
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    raffhussain Member

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    [Sep 11, 2011]
    Were can I locate the egr?
    Will cleaning resolve the issue or wud I need to replace the egr?
  30. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Sep 12, 2011]
    the EGR valve is located on the right side of the engine, It is bolted to the manifold..just google search 2.0 tdi egr valve picture's.

    Cleaning it should do the trick, make sure the little flap ( about the size of a 10p ) shuts properly, clean all the black gunk out with carb cleaner.
    Very important is to make sure the shaft that holds the flap on is not broke, if the flap spins on the shaft get a new EGR valve right away or it can kill the engine.

    Hope this helps.
  31. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Sep 24, 2011]
    from a person that works on these cars everyday all these stories make me cringe and laugh.....

    i drive a 30 year old bmw.... tells you something???

    the ratting noise you can tell instantly. bend down and listen where the front lower grill is in the bumper.

    yes you can pull the sump off to check in 1-2 hours easily if your on a ramp with air tools to hand. you dont need to distrub the cambelt or remove the front panel to just pull the sump off. but to actually change the balance shaft assembly/oil pump.... you do need to strip everything.
    but once youve stripped the sump off to find the little plastic tensioner arms broken and the chains flapping around. wtf do you do??? then spend a grand on parts?? or stick the sump back on and hope for good will?

    if youve got a car with a blb/bre engine that hasnt had this work done or might be suseptable to this design fault sell it/trade it while its ok.
  32. Trumpyman
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    Trumpyman Member

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    [Sep 25, 2011]
    Hi all,i know of another one...New to the forum,and i should be saying new to Audi but not so sure now i have read this lot.

    A run down of our predicament - never owned one but always heard how good they are.Due to circumstances it is time the wife had something a bit newer,bigger and more RELIABLE (he says loosely) -the A4 Avant fits the bill.

    After grafting and saving hard we,like many others,have a certain amount to spend.Looked at a couple of nails until this one came up last week at an indi - Early BLB,05 2.0 S-line Avant,1 owner,110k,FSH (not fraudi last 3 years or so) cambelt just done. Hours drive to view -looked stunning,ace colour,wife fals in love.We could not test drive that day for other reasons that is'nt worth going into.We were,however pretty much sold. Until i started going through the bills,and plenty of them...

    More than one stated 'engine noises require investigating'.Another one was for 'water in the oil,intercooler faulty'.Then,the big £2500 er for the dreaded pump/shaft - only last month.Why spend that amount,then flog it,i ask myself..As already stated we couldn't test drive but did start it up (from cold).It was lumpy to start with (?) but it did settle down.There is a noise identical to the 3rd video on post #194 where he pans down to the pulley area.I took this to be one of the pulleys sounding dry -when tackled the vendor tells me it is the A/C pump,replacement on it's way...My opinion is it also needs 4 tyres and new rear discs.We are meant to be test driving later this week,with a view to buying...

    I was,once i got over the initial shock of seeing a bill like that,ok-ish about it,knowing that the pump fault has already occured,until i read the last page or so here regarding the Hex drive.Am i correct in thinking that,IF we buy,the only way to feel any kind of confidence in this car is to renew that hex drive,even though the pump/shaft issue has been changed? Wish i'd paid more attention to the bill at the time but i was too busy wiping the dust from the floor off my chin.I do remember it was well extensive,pump was £700 odd,belt changed...i will look at it more thoroughly again.It is as if the PO decided 'DO IT,FLOG IT'.

    We don't want to spend this kind of money and have to get into debt to bloody repair the damn thing. Are we best to avoid???? I was aware there was a problem but not this extensive.I do feel for you guys that have been caught in this 'scam'. Scam being the only word i can call it. Any feedback would be greatfully appreciated.Cheers.
  33. Low Fuel
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    Low Fuel Member

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    [Sep 25, 2011]
    How long ago was the repair and how much is the garage asking for the car?

    The chance of the hex drive slipping will be very very small so no need to worry about that, Make sure he replaces the aircon compresser as these are expensive.

    As you can see from all those bills and work done to the car they are really not built like they used to be infact they are mostly peices of S**T now.
    Was speaking to the wife about it last night and we both agreed that although it is a super drive and looks great its the only car we do regret buying.

    But its your choice...i would walk away from that one myself unless its really cheap, You should be looking to get it for about £6000 at worst

    EDIT: Durrr i should read better next time....As the repair was only recent you can be fairly sure like you said he done the minimum and then flog it, nearly always it trashes the turbo or at the very least lessons it life.

    If that hasnt been replaced walk away, but tbh walk away anyway mate and save a little extra for a 2006 non blb.
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2011
  34. Trumpyman
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    Trumpyman Member

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    [Sep 25, 2011]
    Ta for the quick reply...yeah,the fact that it was only done last month makes me nervous:undwech:I will add that although i'm no Einstein,and do not work in the motor trade ,i am far from stooopid when it comes to cars,if you get my drift. In fact,the Indi vendor annoyed me when he pleaded ignorant to the pump replacement..:think:.'Really?' was the call when mentioned...'Yeah,says i,it's on the same bill as the cambelt that you advertised as being done'. Soooo annoys me that honesty isn't an option in the motor trade.I haven't trusted a garage since,ummm,since...never.Sorry if sound so negative to the trade but it is awfull.If anyone disagrees,re-read this lot:gun2:I work in construction.If i do a bad job,i get no more work.Word gets around.How comes in this trade,you do a bad job,you still get work???

    Anyhow,getting carried away,back to the point.You were pretty good with your guesstimation,£6500 is the price. We were going to throw the wife's car in and hopefully strike a deal at the £6k mark initially but now i'm thinking a k less. Sad to say but her 10 yr old astra seems a better bet:racer:
  35. Philip Jowitt
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    Philip Jowitt New Member

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    [Sep 26, 2011]
    MESSAGE, to anyone who has been let down by Audi regarding Balance Shaft failure, and are out of pocket. Been Fobbed Off by Audi? Do you Genuinely want to DO something about it?. The ONLY WAY is to carry out a MASS protest involving the press etc.If you really want to stand up and be seen and heard, then contact me to participate philipjow@btinternet or AUDI (NOT THE QUALITY CAR THEY ADVERTISE)
  36. Philip Jowitt
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    Philip Jowitt New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2011]
    MESSAGE: Have you had a Balance shaft(Oil Pump) fail on your Audi 2.0Ltr Tdi AND it has cost you a lot of money to put it right? And you have been fobbed off by Audi's totally unfair attitude. Do you GENUINELY want to do something about it and join in a UNITED protest to get some publicity and then some compensation from Audi. then contact us on e mail site philipjow@btinternet.com or on this site. Thanks
  37. scoobydo22
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    scoobydo22 New Member

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    [Oct 13, 2011]
    Totally PI**ED OFF.
    just recently bought A4 s-line (4 weeks ago). after reading all the posts on this thread I made sure the engine code was not BLB. I ended up buying an 06 with engine code BRE, full audi history with 80k on the clock. Low and behold what happens on the way to work this morning? engine siezed and is currently in garage.Its the first Audi I have owned and will not be buying another regardless of repair costs.Will keep you posted on the outcome.
  38. mearnsA4
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    mearnsA4 New Member

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    [Oct 14, 2011]
    i can sympathise with you.. my 07 plate "only" cost me £630 repair as engine and turbo survived. car runs like a bag of bolts and scares the S*** out of me with every jolt, vibration and noise... also my 1st audi and will be buying Japanese next...
  39. cricky
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    cricky New Member

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    [Oct 21, 2011]
    Hi Folks, this problem is a complete nightmare and Audi don't appear to give a toss, but luckily for me I found an Audi expert in Coventry who converted my 2.0 Tdi BLB engine to a gear driven oil pump, basically converting it to a BRE engine, if you live anywhere near Coventry or can get your can there, I highly recomend this guy, his name is Mike and his mobile number is 07970 478931, he fixed mine for under �1,000 inc parts, with a warranty and that was including a cam belt kit with water pump.
    He also has an Ebay shop where he sells Audi A4 Tdi engines and also offers a fitting service if your engine is screwed, take a look at this link volksbreakers | eBay or contact him via his Ebay user name volksbreakers . Any work is undertaken and he speacialises in Vw/ Audi, in paricular the 2.0 Tdis, but will quote you for anything, give him a go.
    By the way, I am not related in anyway, nor do I have any financial interest in this guy, I am just passing on someone who I found to be great, when Audi quoted me over 2K !!
    Give him a call and ask him for a quote, you will save yourself thousands of pounds compared to rip off Audi and he is a nice old boy, GLA​
  40. Paul B7
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    Paul B7 Active Member

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    [Oct 27, 2011]
    I have it, like some dreaded virus my beloved BLB engined 2.0 tdi is exhibiting all the signs of a pending balance shaft /chain/oil pump
    problems as I have been advised it will need a repair before long. This has occured at 68,000 miles and the rattle has just started, very quietly but even I can hear it (and my wife says I am deaf).
    I am having a quote prepared now by a NE based Audi main dealer and Iam visiting a locally well respected and long trading engine builder for a second opinion and quote tomorrow.
    I will be back shortly to let you all know what the quotes are..................wish me well !

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