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1988 5000 CS Turbo

Discussion in 'Classic Audi Forum' started by imported_ericsobocinski, Aug 4, 2004.

  1. [Aug 4, 2004]
    hello all, this is my first time to the forum. i found a pretty good deal it seems on a 1988 Audi 5000 CS Turbo. The body is clean, no rust (big for wisconsin) and the interior is heated leather, and in overall great shape. The only problem is that there is no compression in one of the cylinders. i am going to go back and put a tablespoon of oil in there and see if there is any compression. im new to this whole audi scene so i have to ask how hard is it to pull the head off of one of these? im pretty mechanically inclined and have all the tools and equiptment necessary for most anything. im used to working on ford's and dsm's. im hoping its just a head problem. any input on the car and how hard it is to pull the head off of one of these would be greatly appreciated! thanks in advance for any help i might get.


    eric.
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  3. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    Hi Eric, get yourself a Haynes manual. It is pretty easy to pull the head, everything is accessible from the top (except the inlet and exhaust manifold bolts...). take off the tappet cover and you will find 12 head bolts under there that use a star socket. I am assuming of course that the 5000 CS turbo used the 5 cylinder 2.2? In South Africa we called it the 500Turbo (same motor). You will obviously need to get a gasket set from Audi (should include head gasket, tappet cover gasket, rubber end seals for the camshaft, inlet and exhaust gaskets, throttle body to inlet gasket, valve stem seals, maybe one of two other items). fault could be caused by a leaking head gasket? if you like send a private message and i can give more info.
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  4. RICHTSPORT
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    RICHTSPORT New Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    What the hell is a 5000 or 500?
    Is that like our 200 or maybe our V8 model?
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  5. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 4, 2004]
    200 Turbo in Europe is the same as the 500 Turbo in South Africa (our model was only available in auto without 4 wheel drive). The 200 / 500 was badged as the 5000 in the USA/Canada. I think this is why Audi switched to standard badging the world over, ie A6 (A2 A3 A4 etc...). The V8 was a bigger car as you know, and was the forerunner to the A8.
    I don't know much about them as only one or two where ever imported into South Africa.

    In SA, the last '500' sold was in the C4 shape body which was then badged as an A6 in facelift form. Though this conversation covers the earlier body shape.

    One thing I am not sure of is whether or not the CS 5000 had 4 wheel drive?
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  6. audi5e
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    [Aug 5, 2004]
    this is a uk based forum. I am from Johannesburg South Africa (very deep south, and no, not Alabama..... ). /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif

    if the problem is only from one cylinder then it sounds more like a sticking valve or head gasket problem. you would think that rings would wear more or less the same.
    what does the spark plug from that cylinder look like compared to the other plugs? you can sometimes tell.

    also do you know who owned the car before you (did you get it from a dealer?), maybe you can trace who was servicing the car before and ask them if they picked up any faults. it would save you a lot of time pulling the car apart.
    #5
  7. [Aug 5, 2004]
    the car is from some white redneck in milwaukee wisconsin. its about 45 minutes from me and he has no dealer records. everything else on the car checks out well so far. i will check the plug tomorrow and see how that looks. i also want to drain the oil and see if it looks like chocalate milk. speaking of alabama thats where my girlfriend lives. haha. it sounds like a valve or head problem and thats what im praying for
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  8. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 5, 2004]
    I can actually say I have been to Alabama, Birmingham to be precise, for a business trip. Pretty area, lots of trees.

    hey I thought the rednecks stayed in the Carolina's? :)
    how'd yaw'll manage ta find this guy? :)
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  9. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 6, 2004]
    you must have heard the joke about the redneck who gets married to fine youngin, on the honeymoon night he comes running home to his parents crying his eyes out. his parents ask whats wrong, whats wrong, so he tells them he just discovered that his new wife IS still a virgin. his parents ask him what is so terrible about that. so he replies, well the way i figure it, if she ain't good enough for her own family she sure ain't good enough for ours.
    #8
  10. [Aug 6, 2004]
    haha that is so terrible and stereotypical. but i guess your pretty right with that. good joke ill have to tell it to my little lady. she will be thrilled im sure.
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  11. 28v6
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    28v6 Guest

    [Aug 7, 2004]
    Be afraid......Be verrrryy afraid.......Once the head is off you may find more than you bargained for... such as ...

    1/ Cracks between the cylinders, VERY PRONE FOR THAT!!!

    2/ Manifold cracking....VERY PRONE TO THIS ALSO!!!

    3/ Turbo failure......

    Bare in mind that this is the old 10v UR quattro engine, usually marked WR or WB, So it had a lot of problems due to the weight of the turbo on the manifold, with no support, also a lot of heat around the engine, then the previous lack of care on running i.e allowing the engine to idle 2-3mins to cool the turbo, good news is the bottom end is Bomb proof, can't be destroyed, better still you can get some amazing Grunt out of these engines, the Pikes Peak winner back in the 80's had 1000bhp out of a 2.2 5 cylinder so massive gains are to be had.....most bin the KKK turbo in favour of the Garrett Turbo as it's more reliable... incidentally, that record for bhp from what is recorded as a 2ltr still stands today...If the head has to come off, get it skimmed, big valved and ported and polished c/w swirl pattern on the exhaust side, and you'll have some serious Fun there my friend......Failing that look around for an "MB" engine, I believe that's the code, it's a 20v 5 pot turbo motor, puts out some 220 bhp...has water cooled turbo doing away with turbo problems.......

    Good Luck! you're on my home gound now, I used to have one of these.... I miss mine!!!

    p.s Contact Sprongl & Sprongl in Canada, there isn't much they don't know about these vehicles, good guys to know....
    #10
  12. [Aug 7, 2004]
    oh great im excited now to see how big of a hole i got myself into. i bought this car thinking itd be a great daily driver and perfect for the harsh wisconsin winters. all wheel drive kicks some major ass. the car gets towned home tuesday. i went and looked at it. the guy i bought it from is a real weiner. he said it wouldnt even turn over. i went over there with a new battery, and 5 new spark plugs. i got it to run for a few seconds or so and itd die. im thinking its a fuel delievery problem or possibly an ignition problem. im really hoping for nothing internal. he originally told me cyl 4 has no compression, but i find that hard to believe after everything he told me. the story of the car was he was driving and it just died. being young and not knowing much, i still find it hard to believe that cyl 4 just took a [censored] on the top end while cruising along. but anything can happen and im not too sure what im dealing with yet. im praying to god the head doesnt have to come off, but im sure ill get shafted and stuck under the hood of it for the next few months. ITS ALWAYS SAD WHEN YOU SPEND MORE TIME UNDER YOUR CAR THAN YOU DO UNDER YOUR GIRLFRIEND. oh well, i will post back soon with more details and how f'd up this car is going to be. thanks for everyones input, this seems to be a good board and i will be bugging ya'll a lot.

    take care everyone
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  13. audi5e
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    [Aug 8, 2004]
    28v6, do you know anything about the AAR engine (1994 100)? any problems?

    i used to own a wc motor (100GLS5E)years ago. not much has changed with the layout but the injection and ignition systems are a hell of a lot more modern, ie they actually have electronic controls... :)

    TurboDsm86, in South Africa that model had problems with the auto box (can't remember if yours is auto?), not sure if that info is relevant for the rest of the world, as a local branch of ZF manufactured the gearbox here, but still worth checking.

    another thing with ALL audi's, even the new one's, the power steering can give trouble. That warning i had from audi themselves, three different dealers without prompting them.

    if the engine has cracks between the cylinders then you should lose compression in more than one cylinder, unless the crack is into one of the water jackets. in which case you 'should' get oil in the water/water in the cylinder, water in the oil etc... 28v6 is also right about the turbo's, always or should i say ALWAYS let the car (turbo) idle down after driving. reason, the turbo is lubricated from the engine oil, switch the engine off and no more lubrication, however the turbo is still spinning at 80000rpm, so guess what happens, the turbo spindle says tally ho and leaves you with a nice mess. take note on the manifold cracking, this was caused by the vent (dump) valve either failing or sticking. pressure gets too high and your manifold waves a fond farewell... :). if i were you get a haynes manual and give the car a thorough going over. find a decent local mechanic that is willing to give you advice.
    also guys in a forum can only give you advice based on what you tell us, whereas a mechanic can look at the car first hand.

    28v6 did that lot sound about right? (amazing how difficult it is to try and help without actually looking at the car!)
    #12
  14. [Aug 13, 2004]
    well i got the car home today finally. had to have it flatbed towed. i checked basic things so far. compression is relatively good across the board. i used an old school ghetto tester but all 5 cyl are at over 100 PSI. good enough for my liking. the car is gettin fuel, you can smell it on the plugs. the spark is very erratic and it doesnt seem to be gettin a good spark. i have an extra distributor for the car that i was gonna put in, but i lost the nut for the locker for it. so its all ripped apart. im hoping that will help out. any other ideas or common downfalls on this car when it comes to ignition? im no mechanic really so im kind of clueless on where to start with this?

    thanks,

    eric
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  15. audi5e
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    [Aug 13, 2004]
    check all the wiring connectors from the coil, distributor, etc. the coil itself may be to blame if the spark is weak. try fitting your extra distributor first. and check the wiring. if you have an multimeter you can check the resistance on the following: rotor arm, primary winding, secodary winding and the spark plug connector. again a haynes / bentley manual for that model will help.
    #14
  16. imported_WannaBFast
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    imported_WannaBFast Guest

    [Aug 13, 2004]
    try a new cap and rotor... if the rotor isnt arcing juice to the cap... then thats where your problem is..
    #15
  17. [Aug 15, 2004]
    i picked up a new distributor/rotor/cap. i also have picked up a repair manual for it. i was looking and im not too sure that i understand this. if i am correct you : get cyl number 1 to TDC on the compression stroke. you then put the distributor in. set the rotor to align with the mark on the distributor. then put the cap on? is this correct? can anyone give me a better description on installation and timing of a distributor? i appreciate it.

    thanks,

    eric
    #16
  18. [Aug 17, 2004]
    alright thanks a lot audi5e youve been a great help. i will give it a shot tomorrow or whenever i get some free time. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif

    thanks a lot
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  19. audi5e
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    [Aug 18, 2004]
    hope you get it right.

    the AAR is a 2309 5 cylinder non turbo using the KEIII-Jetronic injection system.
    #18
  20. [Aug 19, 2004]
    ok update: i finally have spark, i have fuel, and i have good compression. the car wont run. i dont understand. i am 100% sure timing for the distributor is DEAD ON. is there any grounds or anything like that could be the cause? i tryed to pull a DTC through the motor but i got 4444's. (no fault in memory). i dont know where to go from here? thanks for everyone whos been helping me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif.

    eric
    #19
  21. [Aug 19, 2004]
    ok i will start checking everything over and get back to you. how important is the 3 way vacuum hose that comes off the valve cover? mine is like torn in half and im waiting on satan (the audi dealer) to get my new one in. there is a line to the intake and i believe somewhere else it splits off of? im not to sure of its function or importance
    #20
  22. 28v6
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    28v6 Guest

    [Aug 20, 2004]
    Negative....Your car has electronic ignition me thinks, my 85 did, I suspect that the crank case sensor is incorrectly gapped or faulty, giving you a bad starting problem.....I don't remember there being a vacuum advance on these...could be wrong mind you..
    #21
  23. [Aug 20, 2004]
    ok how would i go about checking it and where is it?

    thanks,

    eric
    #22
  24. [Aug 24, 2004]
    DSM is Diamond Star Motors. (Laser, Eclipse, Talon) i have a 95 Eclipse GST (turbo) that is in very good condtion. Only 1st and 2nd gen talons, and eclipses are DSM's. 1st and only gen Laser is a DSM as well.
    #23
  25. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 24, 2004]
    ah ok, never heard of it before... :)
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  26. audi5e
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    [Aug 26, 2004]
    eric,

    if you managed to get the car to run, even if it was only for 10 seconds then that is a big jump! (particularly since the car was not running at all before!)
    the engine speed sensor is normally just behind the oil filter, at the end of the crankcase/beginning of the gearbox housing (try what 28v6 mentioned and check the gap on the sensor).
    if you are no longer getting spark, then something must have stopped working as you were running it.
    check all the fuses and make sure none of them blew (hence no spark). if one of them is blown, you need to check that circuit.
    you need a multimeter to check the coil. you will need to check the resistance of both the secondary and primary windings. have a look under the ignition system section of your manual. the manual will give you the resistance in ohms, and it will tell you where to check.
    don't give up!
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  27. 28v6
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    28v6 Guest

    [Aug 26, 2004]
    Okay Chappies....Here we go...

    Eric, Gonna Familiarise me wit the 5pot again, Can you take some digi photos so that I may get a look around, It's been 9 years+ since I had mine, so I can't remember where things are unless seen...

    Next, What about a video/MP3 of the engine trying to crank over, at least 'til we see what's going on...

    Remember, Check the sensor off No1 lead, if it's not connected then she won't start...

    Are we talking the facelift 5000 or the earlier model (81-84)??

    Me Needs to look out me manuals on this but one way or t'other we'll get you started,

    Question....

    Turn the keys to ignition lights only, can you hear the fuel pump prime for 5 seconds then silence??? Just thinking...
    #26
  28. [Aug 27, 2004]
    ok, the manual that came with the car is no good. it is absolutely no help and i cant understand it like i can other manuals. its just plain out too confusing. does anyone know resistances or anything like that for the coils? my car is a 1987. i dont know what fuses to check, i saw the fuse panel near the wiper blades but found no fuses/relays ignition related. if someone could post pictures of the coils thatd be a great help, i wish i could be more help to you guys because you guys are obviously doing all you can to help me out. i appreciate it.

    thanks


    eric
    #27
  29. [Aug 28, 2004]
    also how do i go about uploading pictures here? i have a digital camera and id be more than glad to help you guys out with pictures
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  30. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 28, 2004]
    Eric, see the private message. On my car the fuses are behind a panel on the side of the dashboard on the drivers side of the car. the relays are positioned by the wipers.

    http://www.sjmautotechnik.com/trouble_shooting/trouble.html

    take a look at the above site, they give some nice tips on your model.
    #29
  31. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Aug 29, 2004]
    my mail server is down at the moment. :-( once it comes back up i will look.
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  32. audi5e
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    [Aug 29, 2004]
    oh for decent internet in South Africa!!!!
    #31
  33. [Aug 30, 2004]
    haha its alright i sent you like 20 pictures...youll see soon enough hopefully
    #32
  34. [Sep 2, 2004]
    any ideas folks? i dont know what sensors to check or where to go from here. im runnin out of ideas and ive been takin time to clean the car up real nice for certain reasons or people.
    #33
  35. [Sep 2, 2004]
    [ QUOTE ]
    28v6 said:
    Okay Chappies....Here we go...

    Eric, Gonna Familiarise me wit the 5pot again, Can you take some digi photos so that I may get a look around, It's been 9 years+ since I had mine, so I can't remember where things are unless seen...

    Next, What about a video/MP3 of the engine trying to crank over, at least 'til we see what's going on...

    Remember, Check the sensor off No1 lead, if it's not connected then she won't start...

    Are we talking the facelift 5000 or the earlier model (81-84)??

    Me Needs to look out me manuals on this but one way or t'other we'll get you started,

    Question....

    Turn the keys to ignition lights only, can you hear the fuel pump prime for 5 seconds then silence??? Just thinking...

    [/ QUOTE ]



    i have a bunch of pictures of the car, ignition, vacuum, motor and all that if you want. i dont know how to post them on this forum. my email is flippinchickennuggets@yahoo.com if you can shoot me an email with yours id be glad to send you some pictures of the car.


    thanks


    eric
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  36. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Sep 2, 2004]
    /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush2.gif
    #35
  37. [Sep 13, 2004]
    ok well gordon your pictures will be up mon/tuesday i got the car all cleaned up this weekend interior and exterior. the car isnt getting any spark anymore, i checked that sensor and it looked ok. im lookin into the possiblity of the flywheel problem with the pin breaking off. im not too sure though on where to go for it. this is what ive had so far:

    connector to distributor has 11.79V..spec is around 12

    spark plug wires:
    cyl1 6100 ohm
    cyl2 6900 ohm
    cyl3 6300 ohm
    cyl4 6280 ohm
    cyl5 6340 ohm
    spec is 5000 +/- 1000 ohm.. i am close there on most. i have a cheaper multimeter

    ignition timing reference sensor:

    top connection 979 ohm.. spec is 1000
    middle connection 983 ohms...spec is 1000
    bottom: was not supposed to test.

    Secondary resistance of coil:
    7,190 ohms...spec is 5-9K ohm

    Primary resistance of coil:
    1,3 ohm.. spec is .5-1.5 ohm

    idle/full throttle switch..
    12.74v..spec around 12v

    idle switch resistance
    .06 ohm.. spec is 0 ohm.



    one side note if i recall correctly the last time it ran for 10 seconds, right before it started i got [censored] off and hit the coil. and then it started. i dont understand if its a correlation or god felt my anger and started it for me. the coil looks ok and all that fun [censored]. it checked out ok per manual but those can be misleading.
    #36
  38. audi5e
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    [Sep 13, 2004]
    ok good, except for hitting the coil... :)

    Now check all the wiring that routes to/from the distributor and coil. check that there are no breaks in the wiring, also take your multimeter and use the resistance setting to check on each end of a wire to make sure there are no internal breaks.

    Next you need to check the Hall sender in the distributor.
    I cannot remember if you put the original back in when you changed your distributor? If you are not getting spark, it may be something there.

    Try substituting the HT lead from the coil to the distributor, that may be faulty.
    #37
  39. [Oct 2, 2004]
    ok folks. new info: i got power going into the coil. i put a plug on the end of the wire going from the coil to the distributor and it will not spark at all. im assuming it should spark. the resistances for the coil are:

    Secondary resistance of coil:
    7,190 ohms...spec is 5-9K ohm

    Primary resistance of coil:
    1,3 ohm.. spec is .5-1.5 ohm

    this would lead me to believe my coil is bad. any ideas?
    #38
  40. audi5e
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    audi5e Member

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    [Oct 2, 2004]
    I assume you are cranking the engine when performing the test. Check that the voltage drops on the supply as you crank the engine. Secondly check that lead coming off the coil, make sure it is not broken internaly. Otherwise I would get another coil.
    #39
  41. [Oct 4, 2004]
    hello, NEW PROGRESS! today for some reason i got it to throw a code. the code i got was 2113, which was camshaft position sensor. according to the site posted perviously it says it will cause a no start. will also cause a no spark?
    #40

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