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1.8 N/A cams in a 1.8t?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by future, May 24, 2012.

  1. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    that 225g/s at 10psi is obviously on an F23 isn't it Doug? not a stock ko4-023

    Still sounds good though :)
     
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  3. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Yes, it's on a hybrid turbo. But that's unimportant when you consider the modest airflow levels of this testing. A well-sorted K04 can live in the 225g/s range, so these cams might prove suited to stock hardware.
     
    #82 slappy_dunbar, Aug 16, 2012
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2012
  4. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    oh I'm not doubting that at all Doug, just thought it was relevant, as many people skim read and might suddenly think ''Oh my god, 225g/s on actuator pressure! Get me some cams!''

    You know what people are like! My hybrid flows around 220g/s on actuator, and I'm VERY interested to see your results from all this!
     
  5. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Hehe. Point taken. I'm just being overcautious about seeming "selly" here. Anyway, I've had a productive week with the camshafts I'd organized for measurement. Ultimately, I believe the naturally aspirated cams you folks have there are the inspiration for a good bit of the aftermarket "performance cam" products available. The similarities between the old profiles and the aftermarket are just too strong. Even the lobe separation angles on performance products hew quite closely to the OEM specs...for NA motors. However, no product really just does what Audi and RennSport did. And that's a grind which has a wide lobe separation for a mild personality, but maximal lobe lift on stock valve train parts. Here's my best approximation of the RennSport approach:

    [​IMG]

    Note how the lobe center angle on the bigger cam has been pushed back, allowing its opening to time out identically to that of its turbocharged cousin. But this design isn't limited to the lowly NA motors. The RS4 2.7T also shares these profiles and lobe timings. And that's some pretty fast company.

    :idea:


     
  6. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    I have even more info on how the "N/A" cams fit into the larger 20v & 30v product design portfolio. Recently I came across an interesting analysis of the 30v V6's intake cam options. Here it is:

    [TABLE="class: tablebg, width: 100%"]
    [TR="class: row2, bgcolor: #E3E3E3"]
    [TD][TABLE="width: 100%"]
    [TR]
    [TD]
    You are looking at European spec cams only. The US spec cams are totally different. Truths: 1) All VW/Audi 30v V6 Euro gas engines (2.4, 2.7T, 2.[​IMG] use the same intake cams, which are native to Euro emissions. There is no such thing as "RS4 cams" in terms of exclusivity. They are merely Euro spec intake cams designed for Euro emissions testing. They have more lift than US spec units. 2) All VW/Audi 30v V6 gas engines world wide use the same exhaust cams. 3) The US spec 2.8 intake cams are not the same as Euro spec intake cams. 4) The US spec 2.8 intake cams are not the same as the US spec 2.7T intake cams. 5) Bonus: all the 30v heads use the same valves, there are no "special" valves for the RS4 heads. The exhaust valves are all sodium filled. I don't know who the heck dreamed that RS4 valve story up, but it's BS. 6) Bonus #2: all the valves in the 30v heads are really 1.8T valves.
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]
    [/TD]
    [/TR]
    [/TABLE]

    So here in America, what we're really looking for are "European spec" cams. Not naturally-aspirated ones. But it gets confusing when we see that all 1.8T motors -- no matter where sold or the power level -- have "American spec" cams. Why that is, I don't know. But to have the same cam layout as a European 2.7T, then (European) 1.8L parts are the ticket.

    Given that understanding, I am testing just such cams. If I want to be sexy with them, I can call them "RS4" type. If I want to be a bit more mundane, I would describe them as "European spec". Same difference. Hopefully, I can extract something, anything, interesting from the experiment.
     
  7. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    That quote is garbage unfortunately.

    2.7T, 2.8 and 2.4 all use different intake cams. The RS4 uses 2.4 intakes.

    All 30v V6's DO share the same exhaust cams though.

    The stuff about valves is also ****. 2.7T and 1.8T engines do share valves, however they're not the same across all the V6's (or the 1.8's either) the inlets are the same across all variants, but the exhaust valves are different between the 1.8T and 2.7TT and the NA engines. The turbo motors all use 058109611E and the NA motors all use 058109611M. I'd imagine M probably isnt sodium filled.

    Only takes about 5minutes with ETKA to see this.
     
  8. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Let's focus on the intake cams, then. Because that's the central question in the thread. My understanding is that the European-engine 2.4, 2.7T and 2.8 share common part numbers for their cams. Are you saying that's not the case?
     
  9. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    I'll include some part numbers for clarity (i'll only include the cams for bank 1/cyls 1-3 for simplicity):

    ALF, AGA, AJG, APZ, ARJ, APS Engines (2.4L): 078109021B

    ACK, ALG, APR, ATX, AQD, AMX Engines (2.8L): 078109021

    AGB, AZB Engines (2.7T): 078109021M

    RS4: 078109021B

    Exhaust cam is 078109022 on all of the above.
     
  10. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Intake cams for 20v's I hope ;P

    <tuffty/>
     
  11. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    My guess is that the confusion about 30v camshafts is owing to the layout of information in the OEM's published documents. If you look at this thread, you'll see screenshots of the ETKA, and lingering confusion about what goes where.

    In your list, the AGB & AZB engine codes are for the European-spec 2.7T engines (or at least that's what Wikipedia says:)

    195 kilowatts (265 PS; 261 bhp) @ 5,800 rpm; 400 newton metres (295 lbf·ft) @ 1,850 rpm — Audi B5 S4 (AGB, AZB).

    So it'd be interesting to know how the "M" variant intake cam shapes up, but for my purposes, I have what I want: something comparable to what went on the RS4.


     
  12. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    Your quote says that all euro 30v V6's are the same though...

    They're not, and TBH i dont believe theres any difference between a US cam and a Euro cam as far as i can see? What engine code did US S4's get?

    What we really could be doing with is a US ETKA installation to tell for sure, however googling those "Euro" cam part numbers finds plenty of US sites selling them....
     
  13. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    Ooh interesting...

    The US S4 seemingly got an APB engine, which is used in europe in the A6/Allroad model in a detuned form...

    That APB engine (even in europe) uses a different cam to the AGB Euro S4, ending in P/Q


    Anyway, that doesnt change the fact that the RS4 uses a standard 2.4 NA intake cam!
     
  14. dancupra225

    dancupra225 Active Member

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    so would this be a good mod to do.. as from reading it seems right??

    As have a gti n/a in a local scrappy awaiting to have these cams taken...

    also would it be both cmas from the n/a??
     
  15. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Exactly. And for what I'm doing I am uninterested in the Euro-spec 2.7T S4, anyway. I'm more focused on trying out the spec for the "Big Dog" 5v motor. And that's the RS4.
     
  16. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    ​I'd recommend you grab them, squirrel them away, and follow this thread.
     
  17. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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  18. Broken Byzan

    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator
    Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User quattro Audi A4

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    Doug, You can send it here and I'll send it from here( at your cost) if that helps
     
  19. James333

    James333 Member

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    if its any help, I frequently send car parts to the US an find that transglobal express cannot be beaten on price for international shipping of this nature! :)
     
    #98 James333, Sep 2, 2012
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  20. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    that particular unit sold, unfortunately. but I'd sure like to get my hands on another one when it comes up. However, I'm still fairly convinced that the "Generation 1" cam profile that appeared on the 2.6 motor is likely the best. The follow-on revisions were in response to tightening emissions rules, not demands for more power. So the swan song for that cam combo was the RS4.

    And I've tested that cam profile a bit more. With the VVT solenoid properly working, and a new timing belt to boot, I am beginning to see a healthy improvement. Here is a time to speed comparison for the prototype "RS4-style" cam set versus a "Brand-X" aftermarket intake cam:

    [​IMG]
     
    peterg60 likes this.
  21. dancupra225

    dancupra225 Active Member

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    any more news on this thread
     
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  23. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    I sure wish I could say I've found a spectacular new modification. But for anyone running a stock turbo, I see no evidence of a benefit. And not just from N/A cams. But from a cammed wide-port head. That's right: stock head, stock cams. Just as good.

    [​IMG]

    Ugh. So for an airflow capacity anywhere south of 250g/s, this is a dead-end modification. Really disappointed.
     
  24. dancupra225

    dancupra225 Active Member

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    im soon going to be having large port head and inlet then full stage 2 setup on k04 setup..

    I did test it on my friend standard s3 it did seem to go better but no logs but felt alot better lower down pulling off
     
  25. Dani_B19

    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    Slappy, ive bought some adr cams and posted a thread about their part numbers, can you check them to see if their ok?
     
  26. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    If there _NO_ gains to be had, then why did Audi/Cosworth bother on the RS4?

    In terms of HP/cyl the RS4 is equivalent to a ~250hp 1.8T, well below the 250g/sec limit that you suggest you need to exceed before these mods make any sense...
     
  27. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    I know.
    When introduced into the 2.7T, the cam profile we know as the 1.8T spec coincided with a reduced power rating for those 30v engines. You uncovered that fact yourself. The only stone unturned in my research is the exhaust manifold. It might be possible that my test car has yet to be fitted with a proper manifold for testing. But I am working with another tester over here who is running the JBS unit. For cams he's currently got an Autotech teamed to the stock exhaust. I have a set of the "RS4 spec" cams waiting.
     
  28. aragorn

    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!"
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    Maybe the 30v just breathes a bit differently to the 1.8T?

    I know the RS4 intake port shape is very different to the 1.8T and other 30v ports for instance.

    Or maybe the difference was tiny, but cosworth figured a tiny increase for effectively no cost as they were off the shelf parts then they might as well?
     
  29. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Here is a before/after dyno sheet illustrating the (slight) improvement that comes with a changed exhaust cam. The profile in our testing (codenamed "Martindale") was very similar to that used in the 2.7T and NA 1.8L motors.

    [​IMG]
     
  30. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    lol @ doug :p

    I liked this comment on your vortex post, which did'nt repeat on the one above..
    2283 inside on the "cobble" ?
     
  31. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    Yup. The K04-064 is the basis for the majority of the 1.8T hybrids out there. 2283-series compressor teamed to a 50/45 turbine rotor. But in this example, the entire -064 was somehow fitted. So it's got the manifold and turbine housing of that slightly bigger 2.0L K04.
     
  32. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    blimey that must have taken some work...
     
  33. IrishDave

    IrishDave Active Member

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    Raised from the dead.
    As I am building the engine and everything is in pieces I thought of this thread. Was there a definitive outcome. Has anyone actually done it. As I am increasing cc and cr ratio and also using a hybrid would the stock intake na exhaust cam work in my setup.
     
  34. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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    Yep, me and Prawn have done this and come to the conclusion is largely pointless... I documented mine in my build thread...

    <tuffty/>
     
  35. IrishDave

    IrishDave Active Member

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    Was there any difference at all. Can get a cam for 40quid and seen as its the ideal time to put one in. Not looking for 20hp gains or anything stupid like that. Maybe even better spool, lower egt, off boost driving etc.
    Sorry for being a lazy ass but yours and prawns threads are a bit epic to go searching for the info.
     
  36. superkarl

    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    tuffty recorded some gains on the dyno, up from 389hp to 408 or something, thats with both cams, but thats a big turbo, and all the gains were up top, sacrificing low-mid range power and torque, so despite the nicer figure, it prob felt a little more gash for everyday driving.
    If it offered gains earlier on in the rev range all the way to the top end it would probably be worth it.
     
  37. <tuffty/>

    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition...Its all about the flow...
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  38. Prawn

    Prawn My other car is a MINI!!!!

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    fitted to mine back in Feb, slight differences in delivery, but in truth not worth the effort.

    The dyno showed very small losses low down, and very small gains above 6500rpm. On the road the losses were not noticable, and it did feel a little more free at the very top end, but largely I'd say don't bother.
     
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  39. IrishDave

    IrishDave Active Member

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    Thanks for the feedback. Yeah doesn't sound worth it.
     
  40. badger5

    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk
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    tested in lupo k03 hybrid ~300bhp level of tune..
    lost a little early, sustained its torque a little longer but made no discernible difference otherwise.

    not something I would bother with again.
     
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  41. slappy_dunbar

    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    It's been a while since I posted information on this question, and while my findings tend to mirror what the others here are saying, maybe a description of the process is worth the kilobytes.

    As I indicated above, I did a bit of testing on cam profiles which I dubbed "Martindales" but which were basically identical to the N/A cams you folks over there have access to. On the good side, we observed a distinct improvement in EGTs, a valuable thing when paired to a small, hottish hybrid turbo. But the power gains -- the sexy -- weren't there. But rather than give up, I gave some thought to a concept expressed earlier in this thread:



    Ok, so overlap might be the thing, rather than simply bigger cams. To test the question, I returned to the Martindales' lobe angles graph, but then tinkered with how the lobe angles would look if the cam were "re-degreed" by 1/2 tooth. That's a big change -- it works out to 17 crank degrees -- but I figured why be timid about changes, right? Here is what the resulting graph looks like:

    [​IMG]


    Obviously that 1/2 tooth of delayed opening pretty much eliminates the overlap. So I was satisfied with the spec. Next step was to send a camshaft out for re-degreeing, which is basically nothing more than pulling off the cog and re-orienting it by that amount. Here are the pix from that process:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    So now that we had a re-degreed cam, it was time to drop it into the engine.

    The keyway is just to the left -- or retarded -- of its registration mark.


    [​IMG]


    Here's the messy engine bay of our FrankenTT test car. Note the JBS-style Chinese manifold plumbed for EGTs and backpressures.

    [​IMG]


    Here, a look in the other direction, where you can see a CatCams adjustable cam gear, also newly installed.

    [​IMG]


    So with all that done, how does the car run? Firstly, a wide lobe separation angle should net some really great vacuum at idle, yes? Well, no. it was unchanged. So how about performance? EGTs? Also, uninspiring. To be more accurate, they were completely unchanged. Have a looksee at the comparative times to speed:

    [​IMG]

    Unwilling to give up, I tried experimenting with the adjustable cam gear. First, I tried retarding both cams even more. And the car ran terribly. Then I tried advancing them both by 10 crank degrees, nullifying half of the change made to the intake. Here's what that got me:

    [​IMG]


    Plus, this new cam angle caused fueling issues, resulting in persistent CELs for lean conditions. All in all, a complete bust.

    But...there's a silver lining: while tinkering with the cylinder head, ForceFed Engineering's owner was looking over my back-pressure readings. Seeing numbers in excess of 50psi pre-turbine, he wondered aloud:
    "I wonder if all that pressure is causing your valves to float."
    "Huh?" I said. "What's valve float"?

    The answer to that question is an interesting one. And worthy of its own thread, if you ask me. I'll get onto that shortly.
     
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  42. wild willy

    wild willy Member

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    hey Doug,
    missing your updates over on the Vortex, always enjoy your slant on tuning your motor. :yes:
     

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