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1.8 N/A cams in a 1.8t?

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by future, May 24, 2012.

  1. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    Bill has one on his Ibiza engine... but also runs cat cams...

    there are some cams that have adjustable chain drive pulleys too... I have seen these come loose...

    <tuffty/>
    #41
  2. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    Unknown, but I'd imagine in the 320bhp-330bhp region. Curiosity, I said I'd fit it foc as I too am intrigued
    #42
  3. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 3, 2012]
    Before testing any new cams, this adjustable gear will go on the car.

    [​IMG]
    #43
  4. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Jul 7, 2012]
    So.....
    picked up an inlet cam from an A4 with the ADR engine from the scrapyard this morning, £10- bargain!

    Swapped into the APY S3 I mentioned above, complete straight fit, no piston/valve interference.
    Logging showed a repeatable 6-7 g/s more than previous, the c/f had dropped from the previous logs so extra timing was added (this may be due to the colder weather today) , this contributed to an overall gain of around 8-10g/s. The owner commented on how the car felt more 'perky' off boost which is excellent.
    So for the silly cheap cost of it, it would seem its well worth doing.

    Side by side you can see the difference is fairly substantial in terms of lift and duration....
    Left-APY right-ADR


    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    #44
  5. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jul 7, 2012]
    looks like this will be the next big thing then.
    did you have it on a dyno?
    #45
  6. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Jul 7, 2012]
    Me wanty haha. What about the exhaust cam?
    #46
  7. IrishDave
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    IrishDave Active Member

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    Can this be fitted into a BAM engine or not cause of the vvt
    #47
  8. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    Benjamin -- you're killing me over here. Didn't you put a calipers on that cam to see what the lift was? Because my EuroSpec-sourced ADR cam has 8.25mm lift. This is shy of their published specs but jives nicely with the dimensions for Integrated Engineering's "Street" cam and the CatCams 3651.

    More importantly, though, is the lobe separation angle. As noted earlier in the thread, overlap between exhaust and intake is good only for big turbos. And to those who worry about VVT compatibility: don't. These OEM cams are fine on such cars. In fact they're better-suited than any aftermarket design I've seen.
    #48
  9. BENJAMIN
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    BENJAMIN Active Member

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    Im going to grab another next Saturday do I shall be sure to have a measure up- just for you!

    The ADR this came out of is equipped with vvt and the apy it was fitted to didn't, no issue this way round either.

    If these cams measure up to your liking I'm more than happy to send you a load of them as they're so common here.
    #49
  10. murran
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    murran Active Member

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    interesting stuff.
    i once fitted a kent cam in my '87 k-jet mk2 golf gti. made a good few more bhp!
    i also had a 1.6 carb engined '90 driver at the same time.... anyhoo i put the old cam out of gti in it. that made a noticeable gain too!

    also heard of similar stuff as what your trying with earlier audis/vw. nice gains to be had from fitting the 9a inlet cam in a kr engine. etc etc.
    #50
  11. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    Very interesting stuff guys. I wish more info on this was available when I rebuilt my head a few months ago.

    Is there any difference between any of the 1.8t cams too or are all those identicle?
    #51
  12. future
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    future Scuderia Vittoria Edition 001

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    All the 1.8t cams are identical mate
    #52
  13. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 8, 2012]
    Given the number of different cams available (3 different ADR cams for instance...) this sort of testing really needs to be accompanied with actual part numbers of the cams used.

    Given the ADR had VVT, its likely that it was a "K" cam, but it would be good to be sure.
    #53
  14. JtotheD
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    JtotheD Events Moderator

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    really interesting stuff, will be great to see any further investigation into it with dyno proven results etc.
    #54
  15. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    I'm not too sure whether this mod will yield much on a dyno. I expect it will alter the characteristics of the car off boost as opposed to adding significant gains.
    #55
  16. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    if someone wants to furnish the cams & healthy test car I will do the tests to confirm fact from fiction
    #56
  17. JtotheD
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    JtotheD Events Moderator

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    ah right, so does this mean potentially less turbo lag etc?
    #57
  18. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    #58
  19. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    From what i've heard it makes the car slightly livelier off boost.
    #59
  20. Reesy
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    Reesy Well-Known Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    Was meant to be doing this last weekend, but the rain put pay to that. According to a friend of a friend who did it, it made the car more driveable off boost. I'll be doing the change in the next few weeks and will report back.
    #60
  21. aragorn
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    aragorn "Stick a V8 in it!" Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    Reesy: make sure you document which cam you use!
    #61
  22. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    And get before and after logs and dyno.

    Log like a crazy logging machine:

    [​IMG]
    #62
  23. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    Done some testing with NA cams over here now. So far they're proving a disappointment -- at least at the ~200g/s power range most of you guys inhabit. Yes, I've logged. And dynoed. EGTs are a bit down thanks to the exhaust cam, but power levels are unchanged. I reckon any benefit these offer will emerge only at high boost and hp.
    #63
  24. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    surely egts being lower is a great thing on these cars with stock turbos that tend to see high temps.
    no increase in airflow woth the intake cam then?
    what about off boost driveability like has been reported here?
    #64
  25. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 17, 2012]
    Who opens their wallet for off-boost drivability? Heck, even better EGTs are a non-starter for most folks.
    #65
  26. BuuBBa
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    BuuBBa Member

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    So what "revision" cams You tried slappy_dunbar? Would You try with mixed NA in or ex and turbo in or ex cams?
    #66
  27. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    I'm going to present info in a backwards fashion from how I'd planned. That's because I installed cams before getting profile info from a test lab. The hardware in question would be described:
    • Stock turbo intake cam (7.6mm peak lift/ 190˚ @ .04)
    • Stock turbo exhaust cam (9.3mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)
    • Naturally aspirated intake cam (8.4mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)
    • Naturally aspirated exhaust cam (10.2mm peak lift / 210˚ @ .04)
    The test car had the N75 valve unplugged, so boost was regulated purely by the turbo's actuator. All runs were performed on the dyno same-day in the same (lousy, hot) test conditions.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    If you gents want to see the dyno graphs I can get my hands on them. But they're indistinguishable from one another. 224-228 hp to the front wheels in all runs.

    I haven't given up just yet, though. I am curious to experiment with the N/A units at a wider lobe separation. On cars with VVT, this might allow higher top-end boost without the penalty of exhaust gas reversion into the intake flow. That's the purpose of further testing.
    #67
  28. <tuffty/>
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    <tuffty/> Badger 5 Edition Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    Nice work Doug :)

    Would be interesting to see if these are any benefit to a bigger turbo setup...

    <tuffty/>
    #68
  29. Hammy999
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    Hammy999 Member

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    Is this the same as the ADR cam Benjamin used or completely different ?
    #69
  30. superkarl
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    superkarl MAN OF STEEL

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    doug, will you try: N/A intake - stock exhaust?
    #70
  31. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 18, 2012]
    With such a similarity between the stock intake and NA intake, shown here...



    ...I don't see any point in re-doing it with a "lesser" exhaust cam.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 15, 2014
    #71
  32. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 26, 2012]
    I know I've sounded a bit like an Eeyore with the naturally-aspirate camshafts, but I'm still experimenting with them. I've just received "Cam Analyzer" reports back for the exhaust side. The data show how the NA compares to the stock 1.8T, as well as how it stacks up to the exhaust cam in the 30v V6 motors. Just as I'd anticipated, the NA is a virtual match to the one used in its bigger cousin.

    NOTE: the NA cam I tested is one I sourced new through one of my suppliers. This is not a scrapyard find. But I reckon it is basically the same as what you guys over there can find out of an old motor.

    [​IMG]


    #72
  33. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Jul 26, 2012]
    did you have data (nice graph) of 20v intake cams?
    #73
  34. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 26, 2012]
    Sorry. Forgot to mention my next steps: an intake cam measure-o-rama.

    • 1.8T
    • 1.8L (from my source)
    • EuroSpec 210
    • AutoTech 195
    • Integrated Engineering "street"
    The specs for the latter cam I will not make public. I expect IE would want to keep that proprietary.
    #74
  35. Hammy999
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    Hammy999 Member

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    [Jul 26, 2012]
    I have an ADR one that I am going to try when the new head is ready the measurements show it has 0.6 mm greater lift/ profile than the standard one will let you know how it goes.
    #75
  36. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Jul 27, 2012]
    I spoke with the owner of Delta Camshafts today. He described the N/A - type cam as "significantly better" for a high-boost, small turbo application. So it sounds like I need to keep digging. Perhaps the benefits will start to emerge as I raise the boost pressure above ~10psi.
    #76
  37. Westy
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    Westy Double Dark Side! Diesel & 8P

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    [Jul 27, 2012]
    Oooo now I'm interested :)
    #77
  38. Hammy999
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    Hammy999 Member

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    [Jul 27, 2012]
    That is promising news.
    #78
  39. slappy_dunbar
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    slappy_dunbar Let's Do This

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    [Aug 15, 2012]
    Another small correction to my earlier posts: it turns out the test car's VVT solenoid was NOT working properly when running the NA cams. If you look again at the airflow graphs you can see it:

    [​IMG]

    The N/A cams were doggy in airflow for the majority of the run. Now I recognize that's owing to a locked-down VVT solenoid during the runs. The test car is now working with a prototype set, ones which closely match your junkyard NA parts, but which even more closely match those for the RennSport RS4. Have a look-see:

    [​IMG]

    Airflows on actuator pressure (~10psi at redline) are above 225g/s. That's a good start!
    #79
  40. s3dave
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    s3dave TFSI Hybrid

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    [Aug 15, 2012]
    Promising findings Doug... :icon_thumright:
    #80

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