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'00 2.5tdi clouds of white smoke!!!

Discussion in 'Diesel forum' started by 0v0, Dec 22, 2005.

  1. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Dec 22, 2005]
    Ihave clouds of white smoke. Over the last couple of months it started out intermitently usually after a run then stopping (say traffic lights) on idle the clouds would start.

    Had a service about a couple of months ago and thats when problem started. Took it back they said they couldn't find anything wrong! I think it may have been overfilled with oil at this service (but level now ok). The garage is suggesting injector problems?? Having been running Redex for the last 4 tanks seemed to help initially. Recently did a long run (400 miles) and things much worse since then. Smoking all the time now!??

    From what I've read - white smoke is unburnt diesel??

    Other thoughts, not enough air?, glow plugs?, cat converter?,...

    There seems to be no loss of power though mpg is down (what should you get on these engines?)

    If it were oil then I'd think with the amount of smoke there'd be nothing left in the engine - or does it not need much oil to create alot of smoke?

    Any thoughts would be much appreciated....

    Nick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif
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  3. imported_kris_tdi
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    imported_kris_tdi Guest

    [Dec 22, 2005]
    black smoke is unburnt diesel
    white smoke is probably a blocked breather hose or similar.

    do a search, someone else had a similar problem recently.
    #2
  4. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Dec 23, 2005]
    See my 'Smoke screen when idling - help!' thread.

    I'm getting blue/grey smoke though it can appear white when it wafts past the car. It's also particularly bad when stopped in traffic. There's a distinct sooty/oily/exhaust smell too but no drop in oil level on the dipstick; I reckon a little oil can make a lot of smoke.

    Agreed no loss of power. As for mpg down I'm not 100% certain as the car has been Revo'd. BTW, mine's a 115bhp PD, not a 2.5

    Since writing the earlier thread I haven't had time to look into it further but will do so after Christmas.
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  5. mikeA2B
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    mikeA2B Member

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    [Dec 23, 2005]
    Are you sure its not just condensation?, mine puffs out tons of white steamy smoke when cold.
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  6. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Dec 24, 2005]
    [ QUOTE ]
    Are you sure its not just condensation?, mine puffs out tons of white steamy smoke when cold.

    [/ QUOTE ]

    I'll tell you what Mike.... you stand behind the car and breathe in the 'condensation'..... I have two TDIs, the other one doesn't puff out anything like this.

    This is oil smoke, so bad that in the mirror I watched cars back away after they pull up behind in a traffic queue.

    It started after the head gasket was replaced. Two sets of valve stem oil seals later it's just as bad. There's a strong sooty/oily smelll. I first thought it might be turbo but as it pours out when stationary (turbo off-boost) I'm not so sure.
    #5
  7. imported_kris_tdi
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    imported_kris_tdi Guest

    [Dec 24, 2005]
    blocked breather hose as i posted above!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    btw the v6 a4 has a stainless exhaust so will smoke more from cold than one without.
    #6
  8. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 3, 2006]
    Thanks for your replies people. I parked the car up over the last couple of weeks as no one willing to look at it over the festive season.

    Def not condensation on cold start, doing this after a 200 mile run...

    When the problem first occurred I took it back to guys who did the service and he said he couldn't find any breather hose blockages...

    If it were oil surely with the ammount coming out there'd be nothing left in the engine??? or does a little oil go a long way as far as causing smoke???

    Could it be injector problems??
    This is where I'm getting a little confused - Black smoke = un burnt diesel - but the white clouds can be caused by diesel(vapourised?) that is also unburnt????

    Ohh and btw - happy new year all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif!!!

    Nick - Confused /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
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  9. madvw
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    madvw Active Member

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    [Jan 3, 2006]
    white smoke to me always says water...

    if it was oil it would definitely be blue.

    is your coolant level going down?
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  10. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 3, 2006]
    coolant fine...
    smoke hangs in air and in traffic I certainly got my own space...

    oil i think fine or does a little oil cause huge amounts of smoke? anyhow wouldn't say its blue - white/grey maybe...???

    Nick
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  11. MikeA3
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    MikeA3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 4, 2006]
    OvO -have you had any work done on the engine recently?

    Also - are you using something like redX or another form of engine cleaner in with your diesel?

    Mike
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  12. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 4, 2006]
    Hi Mike,
    No work done on engine recently apart from service..

    Yes - using redex on last few tanks (4 treatments in a bottle) Infact the last treatment was a double dose - could this cause EXTRA smoking???

    Using redex as suggested by garage as they thought it may be injector problems??? but these guys are not audi or diesel specialists....

    Should also mention the cars' done 115k miles


    Nick
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  13. MikeA3
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    MikeA3 Active Member VCDS Map User

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    [Jan 4, 2006]
    Hi Nick,

    When they serviced your car - did they do an oil change? - have they put the right oil in it? I can't remember the correct type but i'm sure there's a thread on here somewhere about it.

    Redex and most of the other "additives" on the market were designed for older diesel engines, I don't know if they were intended to be used on a continuous basis but most diesel already has these additives in it when you buy it from the pump so it's not really needed in a modern diesel car.

    It's possible that given the age of your car, if you've put too much Redex in, it might cause the engine to produce more smoke because the engine is "burning" the additives off.

    As for the 115K - i wouldn't panic at all, most VAG TDI's will keep on going way past 200K if there serviced correctly.

    Mike
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  14. imported_kris_tdi
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    imported_kris_tdi Guest

    [Jan 4, 2006]
    stop using the redex, whenever i have used it in the past it has caused lots of smoke.

    115k is nothing, mine has done 145k and is running sweet as a nut still /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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  15. hannahj
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    hannahj New Member

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    [Jan 5, 2006]
    Hi there,
    is the engine running lumpy at any point in the rev range??
    If so I suspect a fueling problem, eg cold fuel valve, not even sure if the audi will have one, but if it has this could be at fault.
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  16. mikeA2B
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    mikeA2B Member

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    [Jan 7, 2006]
    Im sure someone here had a similar problem with the EGR valve, something about when it gets clogged up it causes the car to smoke??
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  17. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 9, 2006]
    Yes (they said) an oil change was done and I can only assume they used the right oil...

    I will run the car out of the redex and see what happens with the next 'clean' tankfull - its just so bloody embarrassing driving this smoke machine - my luck at the moment I'm gona get nicked ...

    Again thanks for all the replies it is much appreciated... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ok.gif

    I will update as things improve (or not)

    Nick
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  18. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 9, 2006]
    Hi hannahj, there was a drop off in power when accelerating intermitently (happened 2-3 times) but that now seems to have cured itself...

    Fueling problem? don't know? 'cold fuel valve'? lol I couldn't tell you if I have one either?... - it was suggested an injector problem but no one here has made the same...???


    Nick
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  19. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 9, 2006]
    Mike - 'EGR valve' - sorry to be a bit of an idiot but what this?

    If it can cause much smoke then its worth me looking at it.... I'll have a search see if I can find - is it diesel specific??


    Nick
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  20. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Jan 9, 2006]
    EGR is exhaust gases recirculation valve (part of the turbo/exhaust system)

    It's like a little valve which basically (correct me if i am wrong) recirculates some of the exhaust gases back into the engine, thus helps get the engine to an optimum operating temp.

    I had mine looked at by a Audi dealer who said it was working fine and is normal to have soot deposits on it.

    I know that too much REDEX in an engine will produce thick white clouds of smoke, however, the smoke is usually consistant with engine revs. I.E more revs = more smoke.

    Tdi_dan
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  21. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 10, 2006]
    Thanks dan,

    An update for you all - I'm more confused...???

    I've started driving the car again to clear this tank out redex (still 3/4) but what I've noticed is it doesn't smoke untill warm??

    No smoke at start up then five/ten minutes later stopped at lights the clouds appear and continue while driving though not as bad - seems worse when ideling???

    In addition had a massive flat spot at about 70mph trying to overtake a van - auto dropped down hit 3500ish revs and died slowing down. Auto returns to 5th and car seems to recover....

    Me thinks it time for the stealers to clean my wallet out....

    Nick ;(
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  22. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Jan 10, 2006]
    Nick,

    I haven't been driving recently (wrist strapped up) but your experience is almost exactly the same as my 115bhp TDI - except for the Redex (which I suspect is a red herring and nothing to do with the smoke). No smoke on start up but when the engine's warm and stationary in traffic, clouds of it. Mine doesn't have a flat spot; it drives perfectly OK, doesn't smoke on the move other than when stopped.

    I've checked as many on-line Audi forums as I can find but no real clues anywhere - a real mystery.

    Let's know how you get on at the dealership; it'll be a while before I can take mine in.

    Good luck!
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  23. mikeA2B
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    mikeA2B Member

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    [Jan 10, 2006]
    Nick, I really think its the EGR Valve, a member called Jason had a similar problem.

    "Three smokeless weeks now so I think that I can safely say that that it was the EGR valve which was causing all the problems and is now fixed."

    heres part of the thread (I think the rest has been deleted)
    http://www.audi-sport.net/ubbthreads/sho...true#Post182479

    If you contact Jason on this thread, he originally posted pics of the EGR valve and how to clean / change it.




    Mike
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  24. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 10, 2006]
    Mike - thanks for finding whats left of that thread - it does seem very similar to my problems - even more so johneyc1 (who has zero posts??)
    I have sent an email to jason(i think).

    If it is EGR can this by diagnosed by hooking up to machine...??

    Will audi main dealer be better than local diesel guy - can they pull the same info out of the car??

    Nick
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  25. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Jan 11, 2006]
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  26. fjtwelve
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    fjtwelve Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 11, 2006]
    Try also www.tdiclub.com, aimed at VW owners but the engines are very similar. There are loads of discussions on this problem. I cleaned out my EGR and the intake manifold simply and easily on my Passat 1.9TDi usng brake cleaner from Halfords. The amount of gunk that came out was surprising and it made a difference. The valve controls recirculation of (sooty oily)exhaust gas back into the engine so it does get clogged up. I would try giving it a good clean first before you replace it.
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  27. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Jan 11, 2006]
    Again thanks for the replys /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif - some good info in those links on cleaning the EGR.

    fjtwelve did you have smoking problem when warmed up and is that why you cleaned EGR??

    Before I go to trouble/expense of cleaning EGR....Can vag-com dissable EGR and therefore I find out if EGR is indeed the problem. Or is there easier way to dissable EGR - only to identify problem of course...(as suggested in one of the above links by pulling the vacume hose - though I'm no grease monkey...)

    Ant thoughts?....

    Nick /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif
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  28. Jason
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    Jason Member

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    [Jan 11, 2006]
    Hi-Jason here!

    I had this same problem early last year and it took me months to sort out and can practically guarantee you that it is the EGR valve!!!!!!

    Simple test:
    When she starts smoking open the bonnet and I bet the inlet manifold (aluminium part across the top of the radiator) is like well HOT due to the valve stuck open and continuous recycled hot exhaust gases which sends the injection system belly up hence the very white heavy smoke,loss of power and old oil boiler smell.

    I have personally ditched www.audi-sport.net (hope that the moderators are reading) as I went into great depths with photos etc on this site on how to sort this problem out which was getting maximum viewings and top of the list all the time under A6,Tech talk & diesel forum with many people with the same problem and then all postings,threads disappeared over night with out a trace.

    Cheers mates! Like as if I've nothing better to do!!!!!!!

    Hay I'm no garage,no personal gain,(Not dissing Audi's either,I have read that New Renault Espace can do it before 20k) just trying to help others out with a if and when it happens to you very serious problem that from personal experience not easy to fix!!!!!

    So!

    What happened to my postings then??????? Mr Moderator

    Hope that you sort your EGR valve out, all labour and no expensive bits can be a bit tricky to get at.

    Please don't hesitate if you need any more help.

    Happy New Year

    Jason
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  29. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Jan 11, 2006]
    Jason,

    I read your posts at the time but didn't have the problem then however thanks for your help now - I hope it's the same solution with my 4 cylinder!

    Regarding missing posts; I believe there was a 'technical mishap' of some description last year when a whole lot of posts (mine included) were lost.

    AFAIK it wasn't deliberate so not really fair to get narked with the Moderators - though I understand why you might feel like it.....
    #28
  30. Jason
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    Jason Member

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    [Jan 13, 2006]
    Tubtub



    Your welcome mate!

    Again I'm 99.9% sure it's your EGR valve, It took me about 2 months to solve the problem with our V6tdi after looking into ever other possible cause:Injectors,timing,injection pump,fuel lines,fuel filter etc...........................

    Pointless plugging up to Vag.com diagnostics etc as this problem will not show up and unfortunately it is too late to unplug the vacuum pipe and block it off as the valve is already sooted up!
    Once cleaned the valve should be ok for another 100k miles so it's up to you if you disconnect or not.Disconnecting in theory is illegal for anti-pollution reasons (ironic eh!) and you must remember to reconnect for m.o.t but absolutely no adverse effects on performance economy etc......

    Our most embarrassing moment with our smoking A6 was in the centre of La Rochelle on the Atlantic coast last spring just before I cured the problem,stuck in traffic on the beautiful sea front heaving with people and us churning out smoke like a power station.

    I read a similar story about a French guy with the same problem stuck in a traffic jam,the smoke got so bad that the guy in the car behind him jumped out of his car and ran off thinking his own engine was on fire!

    I don't know how good you are with a set of spanners and must admit it's a bit of a pig to get at on the V6 (I thinks it's a lot easier on the 4 cylinder) so better left to a mechanic or some one with able fingers if you are not too sure of your self.

    Basically all you have to do is take off all the injector pipes for easier access, I took the turbo off for even easier access to the bolts holding the valve in place but others reckon that you can take it off with specially adapted spanners.
    Once off,clean with a small wire brush and diesel,hold the valve open and clean the seating with wet and dry so that you are sure it's 100% closed, a good test is to blow through it.When you go red and your eyes pop out you know it's properly closed.A good idea to clean the inlet manifold at the same time & mass air flow meter.
    Once you have put it all back to together the hardest part is starting the old girl after having disconnected the injector pipes.
    Keep turning her over until diesel comes out of the pipes at the injector end with out tightening them up,once diesel comes out tighten them all up and she should start no problem.


    Whilst on the subject if you want to prevent future oil leak problems on the V6 check that the engine breather filter has been changed since new otherwise it will block at about 80k putting the whole engine under pressure until oil seals blow and subsequent oil leaks.Not the end of the world just embarrassing when you go round to friends and leave a black patch on their nice new drive!!

    I guess you are right concerning the forum losing my EGR postings, just bloody annoying that's all.

    Computers I hate them!

    How many people sign up sort there problem out and then can't be bothered to just sign up and share there info!


    Bizarre as it seems to be the Tdi's after about 97/98.We also have a 1993 100tdi with 400k Km's and she's sweet as and have never had to touch the old EGR valve.

    Good Luck

    Jason
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  31. Jason
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    Jason Member

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    [Jan 13, 2006]
    Oh! and by the way the smoking gets worse the longer you leave it and more frequent!!!!!!
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  32. fjtwelve
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    fjtwelve Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 13, 2006]
    No smoke, i'd just read about the potential problems on the web, and was just doing a bit of renovation on the engine (190,000miles at that point) to make sure everything worked before I fitted a K&N, tuning box etc.Its very straightforward, just nuts and bolts and jubilee clips. Once the hoses are off you can clean it pretty thoroughly, you don't need to dissemble it any further. If the problems persist after you've cleaned it up then its probably knackered.
    While you've got the hoses off i would clean out the intake manifold using the spray and something like an old toothbrush. I could not believe the amount of sticky black **** i removed. As i said before, a simple clean made a noticeable difference. It cost me about £5 for the aerosol tin of brake cleaner from halfords and a couple of hours on the drive to clean out the lot.
    Likewise the MAF replacement is very easy. The most problem i had was finding the right secure Torq socket to undo the screws.
    The brake cleaner also cleans the MAF, just give it a thorough rinsing with the spray and this will rejuvenate a MAF that is just clogged up and may not need replacing.
    A VAG garage can plug into the car and check any fault codes. If theres an electronic/electrical problem with the EGR it will usually show up, if theres a mechanical problem eg bent valve/spindle you'll see it when you open it up.Your biggest expense is likely to be labour while they sit there and check whats working, the parts are all relatively cheap.
    #31
  33. imported_kris_tdi
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    imported_kris_tdi Guest

    [Jan 15, 2006]
    were is the breather filter? wasn't aware it had one, must be wrong.
    you recon the inlet manifold could be cleaned with some of that spray you squirt into the intake rather than taking it off?
    #32
  34. fjtwelve
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    fjtwelve Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 16, 2006]
    Breather filter was mentioned by Jason, don't know about that myself.

    I cleaned out as much of the inlet manifold as I could reach with the cleaner, a toothbrush and rag (high tech stuff eh?) without removing it. Not a complete job obviously but it made a noticeable difference. Taking off the manifold is a bigger job that I did not want to start and then find I couldn't finish for want of a tool or gasket that had to be replaced. There are threads on www.tdiclub.com with photos and detailed descriptions of taking the whole thing to pieces if you want to follow it up.
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  35. Jason
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    Jason Member

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    [Jan 18, 2006]
    Kris

    I'm talking Breather filter on the V6 Tdi-Which is a right pig to get to, situated on top of the engine behind the injection pump and is incorporated into the same aluminium block as the oil filter.

    Audi recommend changing the whole oil filter engine breather unit (£150) which I did which involved taking off all the injection pipes,turbo,EGR valve for access as at the time our car was smoking heavily and was led to believe by Audi that this unit was the cause but would recommend just changing the breather filter.

    The V6 tdi engine is notorious for block pressure with some people with a blocked breather filter comparing the opening of the oil filler cap to that of opening a bottle of fizzy pop.

    This is also one of the main reasons that the MAF gets fouled as the block breather is conected to the air intake with the consequences that we all know about.

    If your inlet manifold is sooted up under no circumstances try and clean it in situ as anything you dislodge will go into the engine and possibly knack your valves.When I cleaned ours there was approx 3 or 4mm of sooty crud but have seen photos of up to 1cm!!!!!!!! all round the internal diameter.
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  36. fjtwelve
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    fjtwelve Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    [Jan 18, 2006]
    Yeah agreed maybe I took a risk with leaving crud in the intake, you are right. The build up in mine was like yours, a few mil thick. And thanks for the note about the breather. I have just aquired my V6 2.5 TDi and am trying to find out about all these little problems.
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  37. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Feb 3, 2006]
    Just an update...
    my tame mechanic took the car to get hooked up to diagnostics.
    Apparently lots of fault codes in there pointing towards MAF.
    They were all reset and this cured the problem - no more smoke. The mechanic still has the car and going back today to see if any more fault codes....

    Will let you know what happens...

    Nick
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  38. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Mar 13, 2006]
    Update - I'm well ****ed off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif

    He's had the car over a month was been jerked around by the guy with the diagnostics (apparently) - the maf has been replaced and then they got round to the egr valve....

    ......the latest - it still has the smoking the problem and I'm being told its the seals on the turbo - it needs a new turbo....

    I told him to forget it and give me the car back....

    Couple of q's for you out there...

    Q; - The smoking problem as descibed above - can it be down to the seals on the turbo?

    Q; - If so, what is a new turbo for the 2.5 going to cost?

    Nick - sick of cars
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  39. tubtub
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    tubtub Member

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    [Mar 13, 2006]
    Nick,

    Have a look at my thread: 'Oil smoke at idle cured'.... it isn't and I'm equally f/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gifd off!!

    I've had the same experience as you - car away for a month, turbo removed for testing and found to be faulty (at least that's what I've been told).

    New turbo ordered, stock never arrived from supplier so I've had to buy new from Audi at £185+ VAT more - grrrrrrr, why don't suppliers tell the truth when they're out of stock!!

    So far I've spent £1,093 and the car's no better than before.

    So, to answer your questions:
    1) I'm told it can be due to seals in the turbo.
    2) A new turbo for my 1.9 cost £606 + VAT.

    Car is back at my local independent who is checking the new turbo for failure; I'd driven 28 miles when the f/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gifg smoke reappeared.
    #38
  40. S4_dan
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    S4_dan Fire up the Quattro!

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    [Mar 13, 2006]
    Nick,

    There is a guy on ebay selling a brand new genuine Audi A6 2.5 V6 garret turbo for £400.

    At this clicky on Ebay

    Seals can wear out in turbos.

    Alternatively...turbo recon? My old man his done from his saab 900, again a garret unit, cost him £250.

    Good luck and hope you get it sorted.

    Dan
    #39
  41. 0v0
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    0v0 New Member

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    [Mar 15, 2006]
    Thanks for the replys guys....
    Spoke to 4ringspares (as the ebayer) - a right arsey woman on the phone....but would do a second hand one for 250

    I'm confused (again lol) - had a hunt on the net - some sites say there are 2 types and I need the number off the unit and offer refurbed ones for about 100-150 less.

    Then talking to guy from Turbo Technics (Pete) says these units cann't be repaired (garrett) but had the best price on a new one at £391 + VAT.

    Am thinking the new one for 391+ ... how long should it take a competent grease monkey???

    Nick
    #40

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