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Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by edward_harris, Jan 11, 2007.
hi again, anyone know what the 0-60 times would be in an s3 with 350bhp?
low 5's depending on how good the clutch is!! Possibly even a smidge under 5 if you can nail it and have a bullet proof clutch.
ok thanks! also have been advised to fit a haldex any idea if that would make much differene?
A haldex controller they mean I think, It puts more pwer to the rear end than the stock one in most circumstances.
Apparently v good!
The uprated Haldex Performance Part (HPP) has a lower slippage tollerance - it takes a lesser degree of front wheel spin to engage the haldex clutch. It also reacts to throttle position, giving you drive to the rear on full throttle.
Makes a nice difference on the road. Cut's out much of the understeer and gives the car a nicer shove when you put you foot down. Especially when you have a few more bhp.
You haven't, by any chance, recently bought your car of a bloke called Ryan?
*edt. Forget it, read the other post.
no mate a guy called paul! do you no anywhere i can get one at a good price?!
seeing as yours is 330 bhp would you say its a big difference over a 265bhp?
It's a similar difference to comparing a standard S3 to a remapped S3, plus a little more. Very impressive.
What was Ryan getting?
I struggle to think many S3s can do low 5s...you need 3rd for a start to hit 60, (unless you have a very high revving engine) and even with 350BHP I struggle to think many S3s hit low 5s using a standard gearxox.
Am I wrong?
Has anyone tried the longer gear ratio's that HPA sell?
A very high revving engine indeed. I've taken mine to about 7500rpm and the needle was only just getting to 60 in second gear. That's the clock 60, not a real 60mph.
I'd expect to hit 60 in about 5.7-5.9 with 330bhp.
Raising the rev limit will acheive 60 in second Ess, it hits 59 out the factory, so raising the revs by 300rpm would do the trick, and hit 60 in second... would still be a fet to do it in low 5's though.
Are these haldex controllers worth the money on any S3? Mine is standard bar some coilovers and will be staying that way, would it be worth it? Also how do they fit to the car? How much and where from?
Bugger Chris, gpt there before me lol.
I don't think so...
Mine did 57 MPH in 2nd hitting a slightly raised rev limit (APR map)
You'll need more than 300RPM I'm afraid...
I too would expect just under the 6 second mark for a standard geared S3 with 330-350BHP.
Maybe as low as 5.5.
But low 5s?
That to me means 5.0, 5.1 or at a maybe 5.2?
I doubt it.
S3 gearboxes are ****...you simply can't change gear that fast with one.
That gearchange adds you 0.5 seconds if you are lightening quick...more most likely.
Where the hell is Ryan when you need him?
if the second gear ratio is 2.11:1, what rpm is needed for 60 then?
What's the diff ratio and trye revolutions/mile?
Then you can do the calcs...
calculated it as 7100 rpm needed for 60 mph.
At 7500rpm, I was at 58/59 mph on the road angel. I've got no rev limiter anymore, only mechanical sympathy, but it's pointless really - my peak power is at 6500rpm.
working shown here:
tyre size: 225/45/17
axle ratio 4.2
set redline to 7100
also shows that an s3 will never get above 138 easily...
I have a speed calibration chart for mine that showed 57MPH at the rev limit in 2nd.
We'd need to do the maths...
Where did you get the 4.2 from?
Is that the FD ratio?
I thought those O2Ms had 2 FD ratios?
I can't find the info...
And the tyre size is next to useless, to be frank. Tyres vary too much...you need the revs/mile value to be accurate.
yep, more old reliable internet info i'm afraid:
http://www.supercarsite.net/audi/s3-quattro/2002 (although i did notice the gallery pics have appeared on a couple of Ebay auctions )
lists the FD as 3.32, but that has to be balls, else it would nearly hit 70 in 2nd...
Right...from memory...so please forgive me if I've got this wrong!
for a 1:1 gear, the formula is this:
(60,000 divided by (Final Drive Ratio x Tyre Revs Per Mile))
So to get the individual in gear speeds, you use:
(60,000 divided by (Final Drive Ratio x Tyre Revs Per Mile)) all divided by the Individual Gear Ratio
For an S3 with the figures you gave:
FD = 4.2
Gear (2nd) = 2.11
Tyre Revs Per Mile = 828 (for a Toyo 225/40/18)
Tyre Revs Per Mile = 834 (for a Toyo 225/45/17)
(60,000 / (4.2 x 828)) / 2.11
(60,000 / (3477.6)) / 2.11
(17.253278) / 2.11
= 8.1769 MPH per 1000 Revs in 2nd.
x7 (for 7000 RPM limit)
= 57.2383 MPH at the limiter in 2nd.
Or, you need 7400 to just break the 60 MPH barrier.
Those calculations are for 225/40/18 tyres....as mine was on when I got the dyno speed test showing 57MPH in 2nd!
(60,000 / (4.2 x 834)) / 2.11
(60,000 / (3669.6)) / 2.11
(16.350) / 2.11
= 7.7490 MPH per 1000 Revs in 2nd.
x7 (for 7000 RPM limit)
= 54.24355 MPH at the limiter in 2nd.
Or, you need 7800 to just break the 60 MPH barrier.
Those calculations are for 225/45/17 tyres....like I said, a high revving 1.8T!!
Of course, if my calculations are ******...or the figures wrong...all of the above is worth jack-****!!
Looks like you might be,(god forbid !!) according to Ryan's post on top of page three of "this thread" asking what power is needed for a 5 second 0-60 amongst other criteria!!
My comment is based upon an estimate of power to weight and yes assuming it can do 60 in 2nd. Look at an M3 with RWD and slighlty less power, low 5s is achievable if you believe BMW. Surely a heavier car than even the podgy s3?
BTW, my stock 2003 225 s3 does 58 on the GPS before it hits the limiter in 2nd. maybe some of the latrer cars have slightly different ratios or final drive?
Most remapped Ko3sport equipped GOLFS with the 6 speed boxes will do 60 in second too, just with a bit more rev lmit, (approx 300-500rpm on most remaps from what I have read, but not sure if its the same ratios though as 2wd of course).
As all the cars I have tried with IHIs seem to rev like stink until at least 7500, most owners seem to egg you on to go even higher, (must have the upratedvvalves)I am pretty sure an IHI equipped car with 350hp should do 60 in second.
I borrowed the jabbasport Ibiza for a day a few years ago and was told not to go over 8k revs in it.......it would if you let it.....!?!? And that was on stock valves.......no wonder it died eventually (in fact I think the new owner killed the gearbox)!!!
Ok just been up the road in mine!! Held 6k in second, was 53mph approx on speedo.
rev limit starts to cut in a 6400 om mine, indicated 56mph, rev limit stops it at 6800. driving at 3400, half this "limit" it is just shy of 30mph.
So Ireckon an indicated 60 will be at 7k revs or maybe just short of 7k.
Take into account a speedo error, I think 7500 on mine will see a genuine 60 off pretty easily, (proabably 62mph+).
Any big turbo conversion needed to make 350hp should be able to go to 7500 pretty easily, certainly the ones I have driven can do it with ease, most make good power right up to 7800 revs.
Mayeb the later cars do have a slightly different ratio, if you were only hitting indicated 60 at 7500 revs, ChrisS3? Or maybe you had clutch slip......!?!??!?!
Did you read any of the post 3 above?
The speed per 1000 revs in 2nd are listed...you can see EXACTLY how many revs are needed for both 17" and 18" wheels.
So it's as I said...you need a much higher revving S3 to do it...about 1000RPM higher than stock.
Maybe its safe to do that on a standard bottom end...maybe it's not.
I don't know...but you need to go well over 7000RPM to hit 60 in second.
And even then, I doubt many will get genuine 'low 5s'.
Mid 5s maybe...
Id like to think it's possible...I'm guessing Ryan will have been closest so far, of all the cars I know of.
So what you're saying is I need to inflate my tyres to 90psi and I'll do it no problem?
You have more chance inflating your boost pressure to 90psi!!
My first post on this thread suggested a low 5's was possible. To get 350 genuine HP, you need a big turbo. I have only driven IHI big turbo cars. I feel sure form my own road test, backed up by your calcualtions that an s3 will do at least 60 in 2nd at 7500 revs. The three IHI cars I have driven will make good strong power well in excess of 7500 revs, maybe not PEAK power, but they have all gone well over that if you want to.
So I think losing the gearchange to 3rd out, and with a damn good clutch, and decent tyres/set up, (which realistically any 350hp conversion should have otherwise what is the point of all that power), low 5's is possible, in fact I'd have thought fairly easy!
Again, look at similar power to weight ratio cars and they will all be around the same sort of performance, (ie in the 5's) with the S3's (albeit far from perfect)4wd, do you really think its not possible?
God, I saw IHI powered FWD stuff doing mid 5's at inters, in massive plumes of smoke!! Surely the 4wd would help traction and hence the 0-60, even if it stiffs the quarter mile time...?
BTW, I agree totally that the s3 gearbox is pretty poor, I mean what is the deal with third gear.........its almost useless its so short, reckon mine tops out at about 80mph.......gees my mk4 does near that in 2nd!!
S3 monster truck!! lol!
Chris, what sort fo revs does your conversion run out of puff at, if you dont mind me asking? I am sure you change up earlier most of the time, but is will it go to 7500 pretty easy.......?
Peak power is at 6420rpm on the last dyno plot. It doesn't tail off too quick but it does feel flatter after that. I'm still running standard valves so I don't play that hard too often.
so with thus much power does it give you a lot bigger shove in the back than my 265bhp would?
The IHI cars I have tried (no S3s but a golf, an ibiza and an a3 TQs) have been awesome!
Jabbasport have an A3tqs with IHI and fornt moutn as a demo now, I think its making a claimed 365hp. I have to say its just "cheating" its so darned quick, comfy (a bit noisy as they have a big pipe on it!) but the traction is great and its devastatingly quick as a point to point car! And does not jump out at you as being quick when its parked up.
Call them and go have a go in it, they will happily take you out in it and flog it to death!
weird thing it, the bT changes the car everywhere.....even the economy on cruise is usually better as the turbo is so less restrictive! Very smooth power delivery and the power jsut keeps coming and coming.
Very imporessive conversion the IHI, no doubt about it.
Well I'll offer a different opinion based upon driving Chris's fine example...
Shove in the back = torque, not power.
My K04 S3 had more of a shove in the back feel than Chris's 330+ BHP car, but couldn't sustain it.
Mine hit massive torque (330lb-ft) at 3000 ish...Chris's doesn't feel like it's spooling up 'till after 3500.
For back road thrashing, you have to drive them differently...
In mine I would be using 3rd and 4th...in Chris's I was using 2nd and 3rd.
There is no doubt that a big turbo car makes more power up the revs, and id far quicker up there...but low down it's nowhere near as torquey...6th gear cruising is A LOT slower than a well sorted standard turbo'd car at legal-ish speeds.
You totally transform the S3 with a big turbo...you loose all bottom end to get much more over 5000...and hold it to over 7000.
With a well tweaked K04 S3 you get mental low and mid range grunt...but with little top end - it's dead by 6000 ish.
I have no doubt that in a straight line the big turbo S3 will be faster. No doubt at all.
But...in my view, depending on your driving style, your car's chassis, your tyre choice etc...on A-B sweeping roads, there wouldn't be much in it...and the faster car is probably the one with the driver who is best placed to exploit the characteristics of the engine.
On the track I'd also expect a few surprises...fast tracks (Silverstone, Castle Combe etc) the big turbo car would romp away...tight tracks with inclines (Knockhill, Cadwell etc) I'd expect the K04 car to have the edge out of the tight corners and holt it's own over a lap.
I may be wrong though...just based on what I'd felt from Chris's car.
By well sorted K04 S3, I'm not referring to a re-map...but a high boost, peaky, highly strung set up...
Which is the easier to drive?
The big turbo car, for sure. It's much kinder torque delivery makes it easier to drive.
Chris's car feels like a standard factory model in terms of road manners...seamless, smooth power delivery with no fuss.
My old S3 was a peaky, aggressive old hector that required much more effort to get the best out of...more like the turbo torque delivery of old - almost like a switch.
Which would I own now through choice?
I'd want highly strung K04 bottom end (sub 4000RPM) with IHI top end (over 4000 RPM) and sadly I don't know of anything that'll do that.
Sadly, having tried the best of both worlds in different cars, I'd really love to have both together.
lol right ok, i would like a but more torque up the rev range as it does die off about 4500rpm, also 1st and 2nd feel real quick then the rest of the gears theres not alot there either! so hopfully the ihi will sort that out!
Ess three, the IHI cars are very different to Chris's you describe.
Just bags and bags of grunt from 2500 revs onwards, you are never off the power band, and just very fast cars indeed. Jabba's Ibiza was very light car indeed, but ran a charge cooler not a FMIC. Claimed 360hp, (maybe overoptimistic??) but was tested at over 170 mph and 0-100 in less than 10.5. You might think with that it was very highly focussed power wise.......whether it was the weight or just its set up, nothing could be further form the truth....it came on so strong from 2500, any lag you felt was merely a sudden great waft of power......not lag, just more pronounced than a normal k03! Whether it be the roller bearing turbo, or their manifold, for there really is no downsides to the power delivery in my experience.
WHilst this thread is about BTs in general, I think there are several versions and form the other thread by Edward, its an IHI he is looking at (dont blame hime neither!!) I think you would be amazed at the difference Edward!
But dont take my word for it, speak to jabbasport and go and have ago in their 1.8 t Quattro A3..........as close to an S3 demo as you will find, but they have mapped the torque back a little compared to their S3 conversions, as the S3 motor is stronger internally.
The IHI is in a differrent league IMO to a K04 equipped car. Of course a bad IHI conversion and a good K04 may be closer, using a reputable conversion and having it properly mapped, the IHI is hard to fault tbh.
Call them at Jabba, they will be happy to let you have a go in their A3 I am sure.