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£7k BT upgrade for only 270bhp???

Discussion in 'A3/S3 Forum (8L Chassis)' started by Gavin Cooper, Sep 6, 2009.

  1. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Hi,

    Apologies for some repitition of info here but I thought it best to include all info in one place and also tell my story of my BT upgrade.

    Just over a year ago I had a BT upgrade after a lot of saving. Full spec at bottom, some parts were added later. The claimed figures in the promotional material were 350 bhp at 6500 rpm and 328 ft lb at 5030 rpm.

    Less than a year later, cylinder head one had cracked, the HG was cracked in eight places and a reconditioned turbo was needed.

    £2k later I had the car back and thought I would see how it was performing.

    First, using VAGCOM I logged 120 to calculate HP using the free excel template here (http://www.ross-tech.com/vag-com/cars/index.html).

    [​IMG]


    So, a year later and after an expensive repair job I was getting 273 bhp at 6500 rpm and 252 ft lb at 4720 rpm. :sob:

    Next test I logged block 003 and 031 for mass air flow and lambda values. Peak Mass Air Flow was reading 237 g/s, which using a basic calculation of HP x 0.8 = mass air flow, works out ot be c. 295 bhp. A little bit more but still no where near 350bhp I paid for. Plus I believe this calculation cannot be replied on as totally accurate.

    Lambda values looked ok and were riching up under boost (no 0.9s under boost, apart from above 6000 rpm?? not sure why) :think:

    [​IMG]

    So, it was time to look at boost:

    I logged 002 and 115 and got the following:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    To me that doesn't look too good??? :no: Specified is way above actual at low revs. Does anyone know if this is correct, and if not why this is?

    Next, it was suggested if the fuel pump / injectors could be at fault as they are both standard and may not be keeping up. I was also getting single misfires across 1,2,4 cylinders around 2000-3500 rpm but not at high revs under boost.

    [​IMG]

    After some research I concluded views are mixed. Some say standard pump/injectors are fine, others say they need upgrading.

    Anyway, the results showed that ave inj time increased up to 4700 rpm but then started dropping off. Not sure if this indicates something is up. I don't think this is normal?

    [​IMG]

    So after all that I'm left thinking what it could be?

    All visible pipes are secure and there are no obvious leaks.

    Could the MAF be at fault? I understand it's a common problem and my MAF readings are low. However I believe this could be down to a number of other factors.

    Could it be the fuel pump/injectors?

    What ever it is, I'm missing at least 50 bhp and 80 ftlb torque.

    The car is due in to MRC soon to see what could be up, I'll post up the results when received.

    In the meantime if anyone can add to the helpful comments I've already received here (http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/showthread.php?t=78344), that would be grand.

    Cheers,
    Gav


    FULL SPEC:

    Garrett GT2860RS Turbo (Part Number: 739548-5001)
    Comp Housing: .60 AR Turbine Housing: .86
    Forge FMIC
    Custom cast manifold, stainless steel charge, inlet and 3" down pipe
    4 bar fuel pressure regulator
    Standard injectors, fuel pump
    Panel filter
    Original dump valve (relocated to cold side of engine)
    Uprated flywheel and clutch (sachs stage 3)
    Supersprint exhaust system
    Hi-flow sport Cat
    Performance Haldex
    ECS Tuning Stage 5 Brake Conversion.
    Six piston Porsche Cayenne Brembo calipers
    Custom 358x32mm directional vaned rotor rings
    Lightweight 7075 aluminum rotor hats and caliper brackets
    EBC drilled and grooved rear disc brakes with green stuff pads
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  3. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Mate i feel sorry you, isnt good when your pride and joy isnt playing ball.
    Who did the BT conversion? If that was me id have took the car back and asked them what the f**k they were playing at.
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  4. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    have you swapped maf lately?
    could be you are using its figures to say its down on power, and it may be misleading you perhaps

    if you have logs from when it was first done, thats your guide/reference to before the problem
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  5. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 6, 2009]
    Cheers Bill - no I havn't but I guess that's my next move.

    Even if MAF is incorrect, the power is still way down based on my block 120 figures using Torque to BHP calculation, if I am correct.
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  6. h100vw
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    h100vw Member

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    [Sep 7, 2009]
    If the MAF is bad, the engine would have no way of making good power.

    It would be like Lance Armstrong trying to do the TDF, without having a heart rate monitor. He'd not know how hard he was working and when could push it harder.

    Gavin
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  7. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 7, 2009]
    350bhp is way too optimistic anyway for a 28RS... You are looking at 320bhp realistically, 330 at a push.
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  8. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 7, 2009]
    Thanks for the comments. I think I'll change the MAF and see what I get.

    I find it interesting that the tuning company I used state in their literature '350BHP upgrade' but are only installing the 28RS turbo.

    I still have the literature. That must be possible grounds for some sort of recompense?
    #7
  9. simch
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    simch Active Member

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    [Sep 8, 2009]
    Why did you spend £7k with them? I hope you get it sorted but a bit of research on various forums would have prepared you for your grief I am sure!! !
    #8
  10. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Sep 8, 2009]
    have you though about coolant temp sensor?? it ca cause loss of boost, over fueling/under fueling, running problems, starting issues the list goes on they did an upgraded one which is green but i had one of them and still needed changing, its between the air filter housing and the engine block in a plastic coolant pipe, id check that prior to maf as its only about £30 if i remember correct,
    could be the reason why the headgasket gave up before as if it was runnig lean then things would have got very hot in the engine, just a thought and worth a check imo
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2009
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  11. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    I saw a customer car manage 350bhp on his 28Rs (external wastegated) from 1.6bar boost, and I think 360lbft - DD rollers somewhere
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  12. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 9, 2009]

    how do you think block 120 is derived?


    ;)

    Ps.. presuming this is a backdraft kit hance possibly with REVO stage 3?
    pm me if wrong/right etc - not a witch hunt, just curious
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2009
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  13. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    It's a lot from a GTRS however as Bill said, he has seen it.

    My measley little turbo was piss poor till i stuck the new MAF on. PS do not mess around with anything except Genuine, i learnt the hard way.

    GTRS next for me if i keep the car
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  14. RichA3Turbo
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    RichA3Turbo ...Watching you! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    Thats pretty good. Probably the exception, not the rule i guess
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  15. Dani_B19
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    Dani_B19 Audi-sports own special child.

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    Kev you got a pic of were its located and how easy is it to replace?
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  16. Olly P
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    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    I thought 350 bhp was generally what the gt28rs produced? Its what all the tuners seem to advertise it as producing?
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  17. Broken Byzan
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    Broken Byzan Photographic Moderator Staff Member Moderator VCDS Map User

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    It's kind of a maximim available power thing, like speaker ratings, although in therory you could extract that much, in the real world they do not generally make much more than 330 ish, but it makes for a reliable and nice drive
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  18. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    simch - strangely, back in 07 when I purchased the kit I did do somne research and didn't find anything that would have made be think again. Maybe didn't look hard enough.

    Bill - ah ha. Lesson learned. MAF is key then....

    Mark - I'm not sure the MAF has ever been changed...ooops. 100k, probably need a new one!
    #17
  19. s3_kev
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    s3_kev Stage2'd!!!!!!

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    no sorry no pics but do a search on google there is a tt guide for the bam engine thats how i confermed my issue was the temp sensor, as for ease of fitting very easy its just held in with a retaining clip pull that out then remove old sensor and replace, undo the coolant reserviour cap 1st though to remove pressure from cooling system otherwise you may end up with a face of it
    #18
  20. Olly P
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    Olly P My other cars a mk2 Golf GTi

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    [Sep 9, 2009]
    Ahh, cheers, so how much torque can these realistically produce?
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  21. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 11, 2009]
    Its ringing its neck I think to get those figures.. the one I mapped was external gated so the hotside may have been more effecient

    GT2871 on 0.63 hotside I have done a few of are 360-380bhp from 1.8bar peak boost, 1.5bar at top of rpms (flat out again)

    a more realistic reliable power expectation from GT28Rs I think is more 330bhp levels, comparible with IHI VF34
    #20
  22. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 11, 2009]
    320-350lbft region.. when running high boost.. you dont see the power jump when you hike up the boost just more torque and a lumpier torque delivery when plotted.
    #21
  23. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 12, 2009]
    Before my trip down to MRC and after some advice posted here, I thought that I best check my MAF sensor, and possibly give it a clean as I'd never done it before.

    After driving around Bristol trying to find somewhere to get hold of the tamper proof 5-star torx screwdrivers, I finally managed to get the screws out and see my MAF for the first time...and I'm sure this picture does not look right.

    [​IMG]

    Isn't there supposed to be a wire that is used to measure the air flow? Where's my wire???? and the diode?? and why am I still getting readings (see above) without these parts??

    Could this be why the poor car is not performing AND why it blew up in the first place?!?!? Especially if i've been driving around for 1,000 of miles without one?!?!?!

    :sorry:
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  24. badger5
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    badger5 www.badger5.co.uk Site Sponsor

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    [Sep 13, 2009]
    nope.
    looks fine
    you are thinking that link should have a thermistor in it... which some n/a cars do... but yours does not have this.

    does the sensor number end 049 - its the right one

    I have'nt seen cleaning dying maf's resurrect them myself.. New one would be what I would fit if my car, and relog.

    GSF for new one, or stealers/TPS if there's one handy to you
    #23
  25. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 13, 2009]
    oh, (doh) thanks Bill
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  26. Gavin Cooper
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    Gavin Cooper More power captain

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    [Sep 19, 2009]
    Just got back from MRC.

    First off was a pressure test and no leaks were found. After that Doug checked the VAG readings and all were ok. Before we went out for a drive the new MAF, spark plugs and green cotton air filter were installed.

    After taking some readings, MAF was still maxing at 232 g/s and boost was maxing at 1.48bar and dropping to 1.2. Which is all about right, Doug said. He also said that the car felt like a 330bhp car. So maybe it was just me after all?

    Sometimes cylinder heads on 1.8T BT cars do go, so he wasn't surpirsed.

    Something which was mentioned that I hadn't realised, but since the Supersprint exhaust was installed the car hasn't been remapped again, so there's still a little bit more left to get. Also Doug said that in order to get the maximum potential out of the car, the restrictive connection to the cat back would need to be removed and bigger injectors (600cc) installed. Also I'm replacing the fuel pump/filter (it's done 100k miles).

    After that lot the car should be a close as it can be to 350bhp.

    Roll on the 3rd Oct. :rockwoot:
    #25
  27. glen_jai
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    glen_jai Member

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    [Oct 6, 2009]
    I know his car has been stolen by some scums. But anyone know where Gavin actually had this work done originally? The question has been asked, but I can't see an answer anywhere.
    #26
  28. 1animal1
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    1animal1 The Clar!! it mouves!!! VCDS Map User

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    [Oct 7, 2009]
    you having issues Glen?
    #27
  29. glen_jai
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    glen_jai Member

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    [Oct 7, 2009]
    touch wood, my car is running fine at the moment.
    Just had to replace the coil springs on the rear suspension though. They have corroded so bad, bits of it have snapped off.
    #28
  30. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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    [Oct 7, 2009]
    Are you on about the Eibach springs that have corroded? Cos I have them on my car also, but the MOT guy never said anything....
    #29
  31. jojo
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    jojo S3 Drift King! Staff Member Moderator

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