Dilema,911 or tuned S3 anybody?

gaz m

gaz m

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I realy fancy a Porsche 911 but just dont know how it will stand against my Revo 2+ S3?

I dont fancy shelling out my cash to be disapointed any body got any experiance with both?

The 911 c4s is what I am looking at 3.6 or 3.8 engine so 996 or 997.

Anybody?


Gaz.
 
997
Its in a different class to a S3. One is an evolved shopping car, the other a purpose built performance car. A Porsche will drive circles around a A3/S3. Better engine, better braking, better handling, better looking, better badge
Surprised you even had to ask !
 
The problem Paddy is I want one but when you look at the spec's the cheap S3 is so close I wonder if I will waste my money or end up dissapointed.

911(997) SPEC'S 355 BHP, 4.8 TO 60, Tops out at 184
My S3, 360/370 bhp, brembo brakes,mid 4s to 60 tops out around the same, 180 ish

Any stage 2+ guys driven both cars? constructive views please.

cheers
 
If it's straight line speed, then there won't be much in it. My old VX220 was as fast as a 911.

But as young Patrick said, the 911 will whoop the S3 in every other area.
 
thats the kind of info I am after, any feed back from anybody that has driven both?

Gaz
 
911 997 all they long.they look so f**king good and even a 5 year old child can say its something special.a tuned car need to be compared to another tuned car not to a standard car so comparing a stage 2 s3 with a standard porsche is non sense.
 
hi gaz,

i've got both! i just picked up a new s3 this morning for my mrs. my car is a 997 c4s.

it's difficult to answer your question because the cars are so different! it really depends on what you are looking for from a car...

in terms of the driving experience, they 997 is so far ahead of the s3!! you can't really "properly" drive an s3... i'm not meaning to patronise anyone here because i'm no prop racing driver! but what i'm referring to is the responsiveness of the car. the s3 is quite "soft" when compared with my 997 - e.g. very light steering (little feedback compared with 997), very light clutch (not a bad thing!), throttle pedal is not responsive or sensitive enough (i think it will be difficult or ineffective to heel-toe. not that you'll really need to...)

the ride of the s3 is comparable to the porsche in "normal" PSM mode i.e. absorbs most little bumps but is still firm without being too crashy. PSM in sport mode is super firm - every little crack and pebble is felt through the car!

there's obviously a lot more space in the s3!! the interior of the s3 is more modern and functional. the s3 steering wheel is awesome! the RNS-E is streets ahead of the porsche sat nav. for gadget and tech, s3 is miles better. the porsche sports seats are fantastic - extremely comfortable even over long journeys. i've got standard seats in the s3 with leather/alcantara - they feel pretty comfortable, but not driven much yet.

if you're looking for out and out performance (speed and power) then there are better cars than either of these. if you're looking for a more focused sportier car and don't need the space, then i can thoroughly recommend the 997 - it is a car that you can live with everyday and is still quite special. the 997 is quite a heavy car so i wouldn't say that it was a true sports car, it's more a grand tourer... or maybe something in between! when i say "true sports car", i mean mid engine and light weight (something like a boxter or lotus elise). when i say grand tourer, i mean something with a big engine that can cruise and also take the tight and twisties pretty well.

note that my s3 experience is with a brand new unmodded vehicle that has not been run in yet! so forgive me if my views a little premature.

i'm not a tech/mech expert to any degree... far from it!! i'm an enthusiast that appreciates cars. i tend to keep my cars stock.

any more questions, let me know! this might be one of my only opportunities to be "qualified" to help answer questions!
 
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Always bear in mind its not about balls out power...Thrust 2 will do 633mph but would be crap going round a roundabout..:) Its about the overall package and the skill of the driver. Few drivers could get the best out of a stage 2 S3 or a Porsche 911 and once the driver cant reach the capability of the car anyway there is little point in him going for something quicker. I agree with A3forthemrs, the steering and throttle response is a lot sharper in a 997 its just so much more engaging to drive.
Remember also a good C4 997 is going to cost you £35k+ where as a good C4 996 will cost you £25k+
 
Thanks s3forthemrs,
Just what I was looking for as I have driven a mates 997 c4s but sadly it was the morning after a party so I was pretty dull and didn't take as much notice as I should of except for the exhaust howl of course.
Cheers for the info as I have been tempted for so long but not quite had my arm twisted all the way.

Job done. Anybody want a 07 S3 with every toy except buckets???

Gaz.
 
gaz m said:
Thanks s3forthemrs,
Just what I was looking for as I have driven a mates 997 c4s but sadly it was the morning after a party so I was pretty dull and didn't take as much notice as I should of except for the exhaust howl of course.
Cheers for the info as I have been tempted for so long but not quite had my arm twisted all the way.

Job done. Anybody want a 07 S3 with every toy except buckets???

Gaz.
Click to expand...


sounds like a good upgrade!!

well i got my S3, stock, but if your willing to let the Alpine ipod interface go separately i could be interested :yes:
 
gaz m said:
Thanks s3forthemrs,
Just what I was looking for as I have driven a mates 997 c4s but sadly it was the morning after a party so I was pretty dull and didn't take as much notice as I should of except for the exhaust howl of course.
Cheers for the info as I have been tempted for so long but not quite had my arm twisted all the way.

Job done. Anybody want a 07 S3 with every toy except buckets???

Gaz.
Click to expand...

go for it mate! the 997 is a truely great car! some might argue that it's not special enough, especially when compared with astons and fezzas... but the porsche won't need to be in the shop as much! the service interval is around 2 years or 18,000 miles - there's a service indicator, but i tend to get an oil change every year anyway.

do make sure that you try out the seats. i've got the eletric sports seats in mine and they're great. the standard seats are not as good because they don't have the extended shoulder bit and don't feel that they wrap round as much. the adaptive seats are an expensive option, but they do come with adjustable side bolsters and lumbar (i think).

sports exhaust is a must have!! the noise is awesome! make sure you unplug the butterfly valve controller so that it's loud all the time - else you have to hit a button each time you get in the car and the exhaust goes into quiet mode between 10mph and 40mph!

in my opinion, the porsche autos (tiptronic) are very uninvolving. still very good to drive and still very quick, but dull. the new PDSK (same as DSG) with newer flappy paddles is pretty cool though! i've not tried one properly yet, but could be tempted!

another car to consider if you do need the space but want something that is an upgrade over the s3... is a trip over to the "dark side"... BMW M3 coupe. i used to have an e46 m3, great car! new version is supposed to be even better, but different characteristics - much bigger engine and more power!
 
finesse said:
996 Turbo

Job done
Click to expand...

this is a good point! if it's out and out power along with great handling that you're after and you're not so bothered by interior spec, then the 996 turbo can be had for similar money to 997 c4s. 996 turbo in great condition is often priced higher than 997s and residuals will be better. i think you're unlikely to lose much value on a 996 turbo.

my mate has a 996 turbo s - it really does have "snap your head back" acceleration! it is scarily quick!
 
gaz m said:
The problem Paddy is I want one but when you look at the spec's the cheap S3 is so close I wonder if I will waste my money or end up dissapointed.

911(997) SPEC'S 355 BHP, 4.8 TO 60, Tops out at 184
My S3, 360/370 bhp, brembo brakes,mid 4s to 60 tops out around the same, 180 ish

Any stage 2+ guys driven both cars? constructive views please.

cheers
Click to expand...
180 mph is a pretty optimistic top speed for a stg2+ S3 considering its limiting by gearing to about 165, and when air resistance increases by a square of velocity.

Also I can't believe the question in the thread is even being asked! An S3 is just a well honed fast hatchback , but far from the sharpest of tools in the hot hatch box.
The 911 is 2 whole leagues above. Go for a 997 without question.
 
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I had an S3 for 2 years, Giac map and Miltek, I've many happy memories with it hurtling round the Nurburgring. Fantastic car which i'd still recomend to anyone thinking of buying one but like you the 911 kept popping in my head and so eventually I went for it. I bought a 997 C2 (rear wheel drive) as I wanted the full edge of your pants driving experience. As stated, lots of faster cars out there in a straight line but drive the Porsche hard on the twisties and it all makes sense. The Porsche needs driver input and in return gives road feedback, you can feel every hump and hollow through the steering. The Brembo brakes are not over servo'd like most so theres more feel to them. Mine has PASM (Porshe Active Suspension Management) which I think is a must, PASM off the car car can still be driven hard through the bends but the suspension is still very comfortable. PASM on and the car is like a go kart with pretty much zero body roll. To compare S3/997 BHP is missing the point as the Porsche is all about driving/handling. If you do decide to buy one I'd recomend considering a Porsche warranty as the engines a pretty reliable but if anything does go wrong they are very expensive to repair. Mine went in for a service and they phoned me to say there was a very minor weep on a seal although estimated repair cost was around a grand! (warranty covers this no problem). Also consider a Porsche 111 point check if buying private, it will cost £180 but it is worth it as they check everything is both ok and as it came out of the factory down to OE brake pads! Full service history is another must, prefferably OPC.

Porsche turbo is best of both worlds with neck breaking excellaration combined with handling. Downside in my opinion is 996 interior is now looking bare and dated compared to a 997.

In a few months I will have a nice 997 with full Porsche warranty and service history for sale :whistle2:
 
Hi

I'm in a similar situation. I currently own a 2006 E60 M5 and a caterham superlight R. Trouble is the M5 is not the best around town and is so heavy on juice and upkeep that i am thinking of moving on. THINKING anyway. Trouble is what to replace it with. Hence I am on here. I test drove an audi S3 while my car was in getting some warranty work and I was so surprised to see how much I liked it. A bit of research and I am now considering getting a two year old S3 and Revo chip with milltek turbo back etc. Also on my list of possibilities is the 996 Turbo. My mate has one and I've driven it a couple of times. It is very fast and very easy to drive fast. Not too scary but then I have the M5 and caterham to compare to. We haven't raced yet but we think it's pretty close.

My problem with a 996 turbo is that there are so many crap cars out there and if you don't get one under warranty then it is a risk. An engine for example is 20K. Also, and no offense to Porsche owners, I am worried that as a single 32 year old living in a small town, I will be known as "look at that rish posing ****** in his porsche" if you know what I mean. The 996 interior is looking a bit old now and the 997 front looks so much better than the 996. Then again the turbo engine is far more reliable than the non turbo one as it uses a different and stronger block (the one from the gt2 and 3). Oh and the rear wings of a 911 just don't look right without the holes for the intercoolers!

Then again if you step back and think about it. An Audi A3 or a porsche turbo??? It's a stupid question really!

Or is it?

Ultimately you/I may get more enjoyment out of the audi as the performance is more usable every day and it has folding seats. Lower servicing costs, less fuel costs, less insurance costs, less paranoia but no porsche engine noise and no porsche feel!
 
^^ why don't you get an RS4 for similar money to the 911 turbo? Less costly to run than the M5 and better in town. 996 turbo has a horrid interior and the 997 is a million times better looking.
Turbo doesn't really do it for me though, very fast but pretty dull. Sounds like a a big hoover, no sense of occasion at all, coupled with mute styling and crap interior, not an exciting supercar at all.
 
I actually test drove an RS4 before I chose the M5, nice car but wasn't really taken by it. It had the sport suspension on though and i found it very hard on the road. Also they are still going for upwards of 30k for an avant and I don't think I'm willing to spend that on a three year old car. The M5 was a different story as that is almost a supercar with 200mph top speed when unrestricted.

I like the S3 though because the ride was pretty good and it was just such fun around the streets. With a bit more power i think it would be cracking.

The 997 is my ultimate dream, have to admit I would consider a C2S but it would have to be my second car and I'm not ready to replace the caterham just yet
 
paddy said:
At what point did the tiptronic become DSG ?
Click to expand...

the DSG/PDK came in end of last year when the 997 was facelifted with the new rear LED lights and the front end also got a revised bumper and lights.

early PDKs didn't have the flappy paddles and the toggle switch was "wrong"! and was the wrong way round...

PDKs with flappy paddles came out earlier this year i think.
 
If your pockets are deep enough and you dont need the space then get a 911.

3 of my mates have had them, 996C2, 996C4S x 2.
Great cars, fantastic noise etc....

However all of them said they were money pits, especially when out of warranty, one of them only kept his 6 months due to general running costs (his was 6 yr old 50K miles).

So, buy one, run it, and if its a money pit or disappointing in anyway sell it and buy another S3, itch scratched.
Alternatively enjoy the 911 (assuming you get a good one) and grin knowing you made the right choice everytime you drive it.

Nice dilemna:icon_thumright:

Good luck
Paul
 
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I had an old 964 model 911 C2 a while back and I know this is not apples with apples compared to a 996 or 997 , air cooled against water cooled for a start ,and realistically mine was getting into classic car territory. However, during ownership and frequenting the Porsche fraternity so to speak during this period I know that they are extremely costly cars to run, regardless of what you may be told. Most people i know went through an ownership period then when warranty was out they moved on. This was applicable to 996 models at this time. Yes they are great cars no denying and thy never seem to stop putting that smile on your face for sure.

But again as mentioned by Paul above, i tend to agree that sometimes it is like an itch that needs to be scratched, then unless you end up becoming a hard core Porsche addict you will end up moving on when the money keeps flowing out.
 
finnie said:
Hi

I'm in a similar situation. I currently own a 2006 E60 M5 and a caterham superlight R. Trouble is the M5 is not the best around town and is so heavy on juice and upkeep that i am thinking of moving on. THINKING anyway. Trouble is what to replace it with. Hence I am on here. I test drove an audi S3 while my car was in getting some warranty work and I was so surprised to see how much I liked it. A bit of research and I am now considering getting a two year old S3 and Revo chip with milltek turbo back etc. Also on my list of possibilities is the 996 Turbo. My mate has one and I've driven it a couple of times. It is very fast and very easy to drive fast. Not too scary but then I have the M5 and caterham to compare to. We haven't raced yet but we think it's pretty close.


Then again if you step back and think about it. An Audi A3 or a porsche turbo??? It's a stupid question really!

Or is it?

Ultimately you/I may get more enjoyment out of the audi as the performance is more usable every day and it has folding seats. Lower servicing costs, less fuel costs, less insurance costs, less paranoia but no porsche engine noise and no porsche feel!
Click to expand...

Tough choice you have which I suppose all comes down to what works for you i.e. ask say 6 folk and they will all have a different needs. Will you be happy with the drop in power from M5 to smaller hatch S3? Personally I preffer smaller cars and loved every minute of S3 ownership with no regrets. Reading your other post I'd suggest opting for a second hand S3 with best spec you can find and add the map/Miltek which should put a smile on your face but will never replace the M5. Interestingly, I tend to find that once I've thought about a change the wheels are already set in motion hence its only a matter of time which for me seems to happen sooner than later.

You have two fantastic cars both very capable and very fast. I took a different route to the two car thing, I have a new diesel focus for munching the miles, sitting in traffic jams and parking anywhere dodgy. The Porsche comes out purely for fun as and when the need takes me hence I'm not that bothered about running costs on my ..... is it 1st or 2nd car ???

A nice problem you have, time for some more hours on pistonheads :icon_thumright:

Now ............... when's this RS3 ever going to raise its head? That I would add to my must have list.
 
Cheers Guys

Lots of realy good points!
Its the driving bit I am after I need more involvment as the S3 is far to easy to drive fast but is a little dull for involvment, and the Porsche looks are in a differant league deffo!
997 it is and I probably will get another s3 in 6 months time but at least I will then know for sure!

Thanks for all the opinions guys.

Finnie, if your looking for an S3 pm me

Gaz.
 
akash_sky1 said:
180 mph is a pretty optimistic top speed for a stg2+ S3 considering its limiting by gearing to about 165, and when air resistance increases by a cube of velocity.

Also I can't believe the question in the thread is even being asked! An S3 is just a well honed fast hatchback , but far from the sharpest of tools in the hot hatch box.
The 911 is 2 whole leagues above. Go for a 997 without question.
Click to expand...

Akash, You are sort of correct. The S3 gearbox and wheel rolling ratio may be 165mph at the factory redline but dont forget the chipped redline is 1500rpm more so the top speed rises mate as the limiting factor of revolutions of the wheels has been raised quite a bit. Thats simple mechanics.

The question was how did people who had driven both cars rate them side by side? The answers are good as it looks like I should ignore the numbers and speeds between the 2 cars but make the choice on how they feel to drive which is where I feel the s3 was just not involving enough for me. I may be dissapointed in the future but It is defo worth a change to give it a try for now.
As I said before thanks for the coments guys.

Gaz
 
gaz m said:
Akash, You are sort of correct. The S3 gearbox and wheel rolling ratio may be 165mph at the factory redline but dont forget the chipped redline is 1500rpm more so the top speed rises mate as the limiting factor of revolutions of the wheels has been raised quite a bit. Thats simple mechanics.
Click to expand...

I've just got back from Budapest with my S3 (MTM 330BHP), 440 miles of it through Germany on their delicious autobahns. For a brief stretch I had it at 170 - then the Mrs started moaning. Reckon it had another 10-15 left in it but I won't know until a solo trip to Frankfurt in mid-may.

Watch this space lol
 
The Maestro said:
I've just got back from Budapest with my S3 (MTM 330BHP), 440 miles of it through Germany on their delicious autobahns. For a brief stretch I had it at 170 - then the Mrs started moaning. Reckon it had another 10-15 left in it but I won't know until a solo trip to Frankfurt in mid-may.

Watch this space lol
Click to expand...
Thats correct, but as it is a sum of CoD, frontal area and BHP, gearing is not the sole answer, you can have as high a ratio as you want, but without the horses to drive the "brick" through the air, the improvements are marginal, I've added nearly 50 BHP to my old girl, and she's only 5mph quicker.......you'll have to guess the car though.

the GT mentioned above block is a derivative of mine.

kevin
 
There you go
Proof of the the pudding all ready! Mind I have had my car off the clock on auto bahns too so I do know what it can do in reality Akash subject to the speedo's acuracy but my sat nav showed 1 mph diferance so one of them must be right I would hope.

Not quite the object of this thread but dont put the A3/S3 down it is a very competent car or else you wouldnt be driving them! and defo dont underestimate the power and speed of a tuned S3 as the differance is truly awesome compared to stock power.

Gaz
 
gaz m said:
Akash, You are sort of correct. The S3 gearbox and wheel rolling ratio may be 165mph at the factory redline but dont forget the chipped redline is 1500rpm more so the top speed rises mate as the limiting factor of revolutions of the wheels has been raised quite a bit. Thats simple mechanics.


Gaz
Click to expand...

I also mentioned the fact that air resistance increases by the square of velocity and the amount of power to overcome that drag is proportional to the cube of cube of velocity, so simply gearing up and adding only 80-90 bhp would not get an S3 to over 180 mph. Thats only a power increase of 30-35 of percent to increase the speed by 16% ( 1.16) , but the power needed to overcome the drag is increased by 1.57 (1.16 cubed) times a constant. So already without taking the constants into account ( drag, frontal area and air density) your already looking at more then a 50% power increase to get to 180mph.

Using the following equation for Power needed to overcome drag force, you can calculate the percentage power increase it would take to get an S3 to 180 mph using the following equation:
Power = F ( of drag) X Velocity = 1/2 pV cubed X drag coefficent x frontal area.

p= air density, this can be taken as 1.2 kgm-cubed at 20c.
Cod for the S3 = 0.335
Frontal area is 2.06m squared

So if Force = factor increase +1.34 , Velocity = factor increase x+1.16 then the proportional increase in power needed to go 180 mph = 1/2 1.2 X 1.56 x 0.335 x 2.06 = + 0.65 increase in power needed to go 1.16 times faster.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag_(physics) calculate for yourself if you want

265 bhp X 0.65 =172 BHP. 265 + 172 bhp = 437 bhp

This does not however take into account the increas in rolling resistance onyl air resistance, but air drag is quite a lot greater, and assumes power train loss is the same.
So you'd need at least 437 bhp to get an 8p Audi S3 to 180mph at 20 degrees celcius , whch proves what I said that circa 360 bhp would not be enough to get an s3 to that speed.

Drag would increase at lower temperatures, but so would power the max power needed wouild be about the same.

that equation is all over the net so u can find it yourself, I'm a dentist but did A2 level physics and am still pretty handy with the old applied physics.

To reiterate, the air is very thick and you can't add a piddly amount of power and expect a huge gain in top speed!
the Veyron only needs 270 bhp to go 155 mph, but 720 bhp EXTRA to go 253mph!
So there you go.
 
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Can we have a poll please whether this is bullcrap or not pleaseeeee..only kidding
 
Oh and 911. Can't believe it even needs answering.:icon_thumright:
 
audi upgrades
I am not in a bun fight Akash

I asked a question and got some good feed back to my question. Thats all I was after!

Equations are being used all over the world to prove somebodys point all day every day! The government says there are x amount of imigrants in the country but the oppersition say there are xx amount!
I am not interested in possible calculations, just what I can see in black and white in front of my eye's at the time,

Do your maths on Porsche 997 c4s 184 mph and 355 bhp? 996 177mph 320 bhp S3 2+ 370 bhp 180mph do you see a pattern forming?

As I said not in a bun fight as I have the info I asked for.

Gaz
 
akash_sky1 said:
I also mentioned the fact that air resistance increases by the square of velocity and the amount of power to overcome that drag is proportional to the cube of cube of velocity, so simply gearing up and adding only 80-90 bhp would not get an S3 to over 180 mph. Thats only a power increase of 30-35 of percent to increase the speed by 16% ( 1.16) , but the power needed to overcome the drag is increased by 1.57 (1.16 cubed) times a constant. So already without taking the constants into account ( drag, frontal area and air density) your already looking at more then a 50% power increase to get to 180mph ... ... ... etc etc etc
Click to expand...

I get the point and it's quite interesting but at the end of the day the figures are for the drawing board long before we find ourselves here where they're still only relevant for the drawing board. Do we buy our cars based on what modifications can be made to make it faster? I didn't and I don't think a great many of us do (I could be wrong with older cars, but new ones?). Also, 170 is fast enough for me where, equally, whom can drive that fast on anything other than an autobahn or a track: and we don't go to Germany every day nor live our driving life on a track.

My interests in a car's speed lie with its consequential superiority in other areas: it's build-quality to handle the power (factory), it's stopping speeds, and as every good driver knows enough power to get you out the **** if it ever finds its way to your fan.

Nevertheless, Akash, I genuinely found your equations interesting as I'd have never looked them up. The Veyron's factors gave me the clarity of your point more than anything else.

Ta mate
 
And if your speedo is anything like mine its very optimistic as well :) and sorry but your S3 was not designed to go that fast or stop from those speeds.
 
gaz m said:
I am not in a bun fight Akash

I asked a question and got some good feed back to my question. Thats all I was after!

Equations are being used all over the world to prove somebodys point all day every day! The government says there are x amount of imigrants in the country but the oppersition say there are xx amount!
I am not interested in possible calculations, just what I can see in black and white in front of my eye's at the time,

Do your maths on Porsche 997 c4s 184 mph and 355 bhp? 996 177mph 320 bhp S3 2+ 370 bhp 180mph do you see a pattern forming?

As I said not in a bun fight as I have the info I asked for.

Gaz
Click to expand...
im not trying to be a g.ay forum bender either just making a point, if you look up the Cd of a 996/7 its only 0.29 . 0.28 and it has a significantly better power:weight ratio, which is how it manages that top speed with its relatively modest power.
 
Well cheers for all the info and formula's guys

Just put a deposit down on a 996c4s I can then see how I like Posche in comparison for myself.

Thanks for the info S3forthemrs, Finnie and Kris.

Gaz
 
gaz m said:
Well cheers for all the info and formula's guys

Just put a deposit down on a 996c4s I can then see how I like Posche in comparison for myself.

Thanks for the info S3forthemrs, Finnie and Kris.

Gaz
Click to expand...

Good choice

Enjoy:icon_thumright:
 
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