I'm talking about one specific person above, Chris Harris. Evo magazine are well known for being, shall we say, economical with the truth about their tests.
They have a 'best FWD hatch' feature coming soon, tested on the Nurburgring. However, everyone there that weekend saw them do one lap for photos and then spend the rest of the time on local roads. Bet the article makes out as if they were on the ring all weekend.
Chris Harris is an important opinion because he races Porches, has press credentials from a recognised good publication and now runs his own, non advertisment based press service. So he pulls no punches.
You are clutching at straws Dave...
Plenty of other Journalists have experience of both road and racing and hold differing views...which are exactly that...views.
If you want to hold DR or Chris Harris as gospel...that's fine by me.
Personally, I'd suggest you get some time behind the wheel of both and make up your own mind. As I have.
Re: the rally thing, I'm not sure you've understood slip angles.
I'm quite sure I have an understanding of it.
re: the 911 driving style, that is simply a 911 trait, not one that can be applied the same to a front engined RWD car, nor the front engined 4WD car as in the S3. If you apply large amounts of power mid corner you'll just end up understeering doing that in an S3.
Each car has traits...
On a well set up S3, when you have enough torque (high boost, aggressive delivery) and mash the throttle just before the apex the front starts to understeer under power (push wide) which causes the Haldex to dump the torque rearwards (not very smoothly, I may add) which kicks the rear out. You unwind the lock, and as the Haldex now has the rears slipping, it sends some back to the front...giving you a 4 wheel 'power slide' from Apex out...
That's how my S3 could be driven by me and every subsequent owner.
You can't get as much power on, as early in a RWD car...or in a FWD car!
I think we need to clarify mid corner, mid corner would be before the clipping point/apex and after braking. In 99% of situations you will be using a balanced throttle.
Agreed.
On an S3 you can open the taps before the apex, assuming you have the chassis to find the grip - which is no small ask.
On my Golf, I can open the taps before the apex too...in fact, it's the most efficient way of getting round a corner...but a Quaife diff and -2.0 degrees of -ve camber help there. In that, you turn in under power and use the diff to pull you through, pas the apex.
Large amounts Power on before an apex is not normal, not unless you have a dual apex corner. Remember an apex is a clipping point, not the centre of a corner.
Jeeza Dave...I know what a damn apex is.
And 'bormal' or 'traditional' is fine for 'normal' or 'traditional' cars with 'normal' or 'traditional' driving styles...all i'm saying is that there are times, where the driver will find that they can get a better result from the car by driving in a 'no n-normal' way.
It may be harder on the car, it may rely more heavily on physical tyre grip...but so what?
If it's quicker...you do it.
Can't you see that?
You 'could' have your foot down all the way, as long as its situation applicable balanced throttle, but the insinuation in previous posts seem to be that people are saying you can mash the throttle. Not so.
I believe you can - corner, driver and chassis dependant.
The S3 has too much physical grip for the torque...so even when mapped, you are only just able to break traction on all 4 wheels...so if you don't break traction, you can take liberties with the throttle as you have the grip to use the torque.
An example...
If I ran my S3 at 320 lb-ft, I could get on the power really early (pre apex) and it was utterly planted everywhere.
At 332 lb-ft it wasn't...it used to break traction in a non-oprogressive manner...and was slower point to point as you were fighting the chassis/grip.
So at 320 lb-ft it was easier to drive, you could use more throttle angle, earlier and it was faster point to point. Cheating? No...being smart.
You're saying an S3 is faster out of corners using its haldex and importantly a turbo (how are you keeping said turbo at max torque, race cars have very complicated anti lag to do this) than a Naturally aspirated Porsche 911 with over a litre more displacement?
You are seriously not seeing this?
S3 and C4S = same weight.
C4S = longer gearing
C4S has 275 lb-ft at 6000RPM (roughly), S3 has 320-332 lb-ft at 3500 RPM.
On a back road...out of a corner...in the S3, in 2nd/3rd.
Get on the throttle hard as you turn in, boost rises, apex on full torque, rear slips out, opposite lock, keep the throttle pinned and grab the next gear.
C4S comes through the same corner at 4000RPM, off peak torque, with longer gearing and takes a few seconds to 'get on cam'...all the distance the C4S takes out of the S3 on the brakes, is lost as the S3 leaves it floundering out of the corner.
Believe me, I don't like it.
But David R driving my old S3 left me sitting too many times out of tight corners and off roundabouts.
Given a short length of road, the C4S will catch up and rocket past...but out of tight corners, a well set-up S3 with high torque is a formidable beast.
I would like to.
Sadly, I am someone who can find fault in the car I own....and can accept that my 911 isn't the bestest/fastest car in the whole wide world ever...
It happened. Several times.
It's simple physics Dave.
The only caveat you could possibly have would be an exceptionally poor 911 driver or someone new to 911s,
Rubbish!
It's down to weight, grip and torque multiplying using the gearing...it doesn't take much of a genius to work it out.
as lets be honest, you can drive 95% in your S3 but that same skill will only get you 65% of the available power, grip and control in a 911.
I agree.
The S3 is a very easy car to drive fast...but dull as dishwater.
The 911 harder but more entertaining.
My old S3 may have been quicker 20% of the time...but it was dull 100% of the time.
Why do I need to revist my information? A Turbo is a road car, a GT2 is the race focused version thereof. It also happens to have more torque in parts and its RWD.
So the 'race' Porsche engineering team prefer RWD.
I'm not surprised race teams like RWD...lighter etc.
But this isn't a race car discussion.
It's about road cars...as I said, I don't race, I drive on the road.
That said, we seem to be going away from race and concentrating on road competence.
I would imagine 99% of people on here will own a road car...so I'm not surprised.
I personally, living in the south have rarely had issues, and on track tyres when warm, have never lost traction coming out of a corner, but that said, I imagine I drive conservatively.
Fair comment...
I live in the north, where it's wet a lot, and has bumpy, crappy roads. 4WD is quicker point to point.
4WD isnt generally used in sporting situations is it?
Not if you choose to ignore Rallying, no.
So we can stop the pretence that 4Wd is 'sporty' and instead look upon what it is in actuality.
Its a system designed to overcome compromise in drivetrains that takes the driver out of the system.
Take your head out of your **** Dave...
That statement is just stupid.
Go tell Lambo, Porsche, Mistubishi, Subaru etc that.