Wagner, Airtec stage 2 and APR

prt57

prt57

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Hi,
For the purposes of this discussion, I want you to assume all 3 of these intercoolers are exactly the same price.
I know that there is £600 difference between the cheapest and the most expensive but it is the performance I am interested in.
The APR and Airtec are bar and plate and the Wagner is tube and fin in construction.
At the moment, my S3 is at stage 2+ with a standard alloy end tank intercooler. I may go up to TTE 420 and so this includes a bit of planning for the future.
So of the 3 intercoolers listed, from real world experience or discussions, which will give the best cooling performance?
I have read elsewhere this morning that a Pro Alloy is holding back a Loba hybrid at 450 BHP but that may be because the aircon radiator is in the way.
So all thoughts welcomed!!
 
prt57 said:
Hi,
For the purposes of this discussion, I want you to assume all 3 of these intercoolers are exactly the same price.
I know that there is £600 difference between the cheapest and the most expensive but it is the performance I am interested in.
The APR and Airtec are bar and plate and the Wagner is tube and fin in construction.
At the moment, my S3 is at stage 2+ with a standard alloy end tank intercooler. I may go up to TTE 420 and so this includes a bit of planning for the future.
So of the 3 intercoolers listed, from real world experience or discussions, which will give the best cooling performance?
I have read elsewhere this morning that a Pro Alloy is holding back a Loba hybrid at 450 BHP but that may be because the aircon radiator is in the way.
So all thoughts welcomed!!
Click to expand...


For what it's worth,the ProAlloy isn't holding my car back at 550bhp,and the aircon radiator is still in place.
Don't forget that a lot also comes down to the pipework,airflow,boost levels,and how much hot air the turbo is blowing.
Mine is only running 1.9bar at 550bhp,where the smaller 3076 I had a while back was running 2.3bar for 100bhp less.

This thread may also help...

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180325

Overall,the Wagner came out best in that review.
 
Last edited:
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S3Alex said:
For what it's worth,the ProAlloy isn't holding my car back at 550bhp,and the aircon radiator is still in place.
Don't forget that a lot also comes down to the pipework,airflow,boost levels,and how much hot air the turbo is blowing.
Mine is only running 1.9bar at 550bhp,where the smaller 3076 I had a while back was running 2.3bar for 100bhp less.

This thread may also help...

http://www.golfmkv.com/forums/showthread.php?t=180325

Overall,the Wagner came out best in that review.
Click to expand...
.

Thanks Alex for your thoughts. I read that article earlier but it does not appear to give comparative data between my short list of intercoolers.
I am drawn to the Wagner but some keyboard warriors refer to this design as an interwarmer!!

Some sites suggest bar and plate is better whereas others promote tube and fin. I would imagine that there is a lot of knocking of what people are not running so they can justify their own purchases.
 
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prt57 said:
.

Thanks Alex for your thoughts. I read that article earlier but it does not appear to give comparative data between my short list of intercoolers.
I am drawn to the Wagner but some keyboard warriors refer to this design as an interwarmer!!

Some sites suggest bar and plate is better whereas others promote tube and fin. I would imagine that there is a lot of knocking of what people are not running so they can justify their own purchases.
Click to expand...

I think you're absolutely right with that.....there's a lot of "mine is better than yours" at times.

I don't think there's a huge amount of difference between the good designs out there,but there are a lot of cheap usually far east sourced copies with poor weld quality,and bad end tank design.

The Wagner always gets good reviews,and the reason I chose the ProAlloy was that it was the best design at the time.
Things change,and designs hopefully improve.
 
I'm also a bit lost when it comes to intercoolers after reading a bit about them. Few years back i had twintercooler and it did job fine but wanted to go single bigger cooler (still running stock one and i think it's the restrictive plastic end one).
To me peron looks like great piece too.
"Welly" coolers seems popular too and it is a proper fmic but the issues is how to keep the crash bar with it.
Kwe one doesn't look bad and it's cheap compared to others but i didn't find any reviews.
 
I think the Peron is changing its design with a new version being released shortly. I don't think I want to be the guinea pig!
 
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I see. Was once with twintercooler wouldn't want to be again...
 
I did a lot of reading up and went for the Wagner when a 2nd hand one came up, there is no problem with the crash bar but the air on rad is a tight fit. Made sure I also went cts pipe all the way from turbo to inlet manifold to max out it’s potential.

Ran a few vcds logs before and after and the charge air intake temp was definitely lowered by it. No idea how it performs against others but it is solid engineering and felt like torque was improved after fitting. Without a remap


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
For what it's worth, I'm running the OEM alloy S3 cooler with TTE420 and it works perfectly well on the road (not recommended for track use though). My car had 6 back to back dyno pulls and the intake temp was still just 10 deg above ambient. A lot depends on how you drive and how much boost your tuner dials in as this is what creates high intake temps.
 
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Bit off topic but what power are you running with tte and stock ic?
 
Following as eventually I want To know the same
 
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mechanic69 said:
I did a lot of reading up and went for the Wagner when a 2nd hand one came up, there is no problem with the crash bar but the air on rad is a tight fit. Made sure I also went cts pipe all the way from turbo to inlet manifold to max out it’s potential.

Ran a few vcds logs before and after and the charge air intake temp was definitely lowered by it. No idea how it performs against others but it is solid engineering and felt like torque was improved after fitting. Without a remap
M
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

When you say the air con rad is a tight fit do you mean the 5 screws holding it onto the cooler?
 
I was just looking into the performance of the top IC recently and struggled to find a definitive answer. Would love to see some evidence on all 3, hard to find someone who would of tested them back to back in the same air temp.

Is there a preferred favourite from certain tuners?

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit...
 
Max Read said:
I was just looking into the performance of the top IC recently and struggled to find a definitive answer. Would love to see some evidence on all 3, hard to find someone who would of tested them back to back in the same air temp.

Is there a preferred favourite from certain tuners?

Sorry to hijack your thread a bit...
Click to expand...

To make a real comparison it would need to be cars with identical specs and boost levels etc,not just the same air temps,which would make a true comparison difficult at least.

I think the best you can do currently is see what works most consistently with a given level of tune.

As far as I can remember from the reviews,such as they are,the ProAlloy still has just about the largest core volume,but even that doesn't tell it all,as the end tank volume,and overall flow characteristics can result in a smaller intercooler performing better than some with larger volumes,and the piping also will have an effect if there are sharp turns or restrictions anywhere.

And......as nluk100 and I have both said,running a small turbo to its max results in high charge temps,where a larger one will run cooler.
 
I'm running 400ps with 580Nm on lowish boost (1.7Bar peak) as I wanted to try and preserve some low end torque. This is on a known conservative dyno.
 
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nluk100 said:
I'm running 400ps with 580Nm on lowish boost (1.7Bar peak) as I wanted to try and preserve some low end torque. This is on a known conservative dyno.
Click to expand...

I can just about do metric......lol

That means mine is running around 560ps and 750Nm at 1.9 bar,but peak torque at around 4000rpm and flat to 7500......the really clever part to me anyway was being able to do those figures with the engine running cooler,and less boost than before,by changing the way the injectors are brought in and altering the fuelling.

The benefit of the bigger turbo was being able to do all of that with lower temps and pressures,and may be part of the answer as to why the intercooler is still performing well with more power......but not really my field!
 
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I imagine it's best to go on the tuners advice as they get the varied figures instead a print out of a one off test.
I've heard good reviews about the Pro Alloy, which offer a new AC condenser as part of the package I believe, which should get more air through to the IC over a more than likely damaged old one already on the car.
 
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nluk100 said:
I'm running 400ps with 580Nm on lowish boost (1.7Bar peak) as I wanted to try and preserve some low end torque. This is on a known conservative dyno.
Click to expand...
Wow..great figures for low boost setup with stock ic.

About ic, i guess they all work very well and it's not the issue with them underperforming but with the location of the stock ic.
Radiator gets damaged etc and it restrics airflow to the ic. Where welly cooler sits in front with no restrictions. Oh and it has a popular price too.
If the radiator is in good condition then there shouldn't be too much issues.
 
I had a pro alloy fitted last year by AKS , its coming out now and i am having to get a wellycooler fitted as the pro alloy is holding back power with the loba hybrid , timing is too low due to high ambient temps from the intercooler , never going to be good sandwiched between the aircon condenser and the radiator , it was ok and worked well on 2 + but no good now so its for sale .
 
MICHAEL PARKER said:
I had a pro alloy fitted last year by AKS , its coming out now and i am having to get a wellycooler fitted as the pro alloy is holding back power with the loba hybrid , timing is too low due to high ambient temps from the intercooler , never going to be good sandwiched between the aircon condenser and the radiator , it was ok and worked well on 2 + but no good now so its for sale .
Click to expand...

I have been watching your thread elsewhere. So Nikki said to get a bar and plate Welly.
All of this is most confusing as I read one article recommending bar and plate and the next says tube and fin.
The Wagner seems popular but that is tube and fin and the Airtec stage 2 is bar and plate.
So we are back to square 1 again!!
 
prt57 said:
When you say the air con rad is a tight fit do you mean the 5 screws holding it onto the cooler?
Click to expand...

Yeah I had to open up the mounting holes for the water rad to make it fit and the aircon rad leave a couple of screws out, really tight bottom of drivers side with the pipe clearance. Everything is ok but not a perfect fit as expected for a replacement part.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
MICHAEL PARKER said:
I had a pro alloy fitted last year by AKS , its coming out now and i am having to get a wellycooler fitted as the pro alloy is holding back power with the loba hybrid , timing is too low due to high ambient temps from the intercooler , never going to be good sandwiched between the aircon condenser and the radiator , it was ok and worked well on 2 + but no good now so its for sale .
Click to expand...

I have always been sceptical on welly coolers, price seems to good to be true compared to Wagner and pro alloy! Must be doing something right if it's holding you back still. How do they fit? I know they sit in front of the AC but do you keep the standard s3 IC still?
 
Ok , you must use a bar and plate type , never use tube and fin as they will not work at all , the confusion comes from the fact that Toyosport who make the welly coolers make both types but on the TFSI the tube and fin is an INTERWARMER , the Pro Alloy and air Tech , Wagner etc are all very good but not when you want higher power , the cores are wrong and when sandwiched between the air con condenser and radiator they just won't get the charge temps down low enough , my Loba is capable of 480 bhp (if forged ) but it gets very hot hence requiring a more efficient intercooler , the welly coolers that are bar and plate and only cost £100 work and they work really well , especially if they are custom hardpiped .Niki still hasn't finished my car yet but as things looked on Wednesday we are looking at around 430 bhp and 400 ish torque which is for safety reasons to give the pistons and rids a chance .
 
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Ok, a little miss information here.

Like for Like, Tube and Fin flow better and cool very similar to bar and plate. They are also significantly lighter. Bar and plate are used by most aftermarket companies as they are much easier to make, especially in small volume. Special tooling is required for tube and fin, and you need a lot of resource to start making them. However, once you exceed a certain volume then they become cheaper per unit. This is why the OEM's will generally use them.

The best intercooler for the S3 is the Wagner tube and fin. A similar design is used in current shape S3/Golf R and they cool and flow a lot more than the 8P produced power wise. Toyo Sport are not a manufacturer but a brand and the name can be found on a number of products out of China. Some are actually very good, but the problem is there is no quality control and they vary from batch to batch.. We recently tested a well known brand cooler against the Wagner and although temperatures were similar, the Wagner waa nearly 40bhp which is quite astonishing - but not every car is going to see this difference.

Rick
 
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IMG 0681
Rick @ Unicorn Motor Dev. said:
Ok, a little miss information here.

Like for Like, Tube and Fin flow better and cool very similar to bar and plate. They are also significantly lighter. Bar and plate are used by most aftermarket companies as they are much easier to make, especially in small volume. Special tooling is required for tube and fin, and you need a lot of resource to start making them. However, once you exceed a certain volume then they become cheaper per unit. This is why the OEM's will generally use them.

The best intercooler for the S3 is the Wagner tube and fin. A similar design is used in current shape S3/Golf R and they cool and flow a lot more than the 8P produced power wise. Toyo Sport are not a manufacturer but a brand and the name can be found on a number of products out of China. Some are actually very good, but the problem is there is no quality control and they vary from batch to batch.. We recently tested a well known brand cooler against the Wagner and although temperatures were similar, the Wagner waa nearly 40bhp which is quite astonishing - but not every car is going to see this difference.

Rick
Click to expand...
That's fair enough , I have been advised to go for a welly cooler on my situation as the pro Alloy is holding the power back and it could be better , the core is wrong in the pro Alloy for big power as it's too small , that is coming from Alex at AKS and I know he knows his stuff as well , the Wagner is very good but at £700 it wants to be , logic says that if an intercooler is at the front of the car then it should perform better as it's the first to receive the airflow .Anyways I am pretty happy with the results so far
 
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