HALDEX issue?

PhatGit · Mar 18, 2017

Hi guys

After a bit of advice. Been getting a lot of front wheel spin lately in all conditions. Traction control light doesn't come on when this happens. Also seems to be under steering a bit more than usual as well. Tyres are in good condition with around 5mm tread. There is no noticeable different noise when this happens and it doesn't happen all the time.

Car is a 64 plate S3. Not noticed this up until the last three or four weeks.

Was going to take it in to the stealer, Leeds Audi is about 2 minutes walk from work, but don't seem to want any business at the moment. Can't get it booked in with them, and showed no interest in selling the sister-in-law a car (ended up with a new Mini Cooper for £14k with a far better spec inside than my S3! Also a really nice drive and nippy for a 1.5).

So, before I try and get it booked in somewhere else, does this sound like a HALDEX issue? Or any other obvious cause?

Thanks

A.ShawnS3 · Mar 18, 2017

Definitely an haldex related issue. Currently having the same issue with my car, Audi replaced the haldex pump on my car and still hasn't fixed it, when the car is on a ramp you can see the prop shaft working and spinning along with all 4 wheels but on the ground it don't seem to be working. My dealer are still trying to figure what's wrong with it.

Rob2k68 · Mar 18, 2017

A.ShawnS3 said:
Definitely an haldex related issue. Currently having the same issue with my car, Audi replaced the haldex pump on my car and still hasn't fixed it, when the car is on a ramp you can see the prop shaft working and spinning along with all 4 wheels but on the ground it don't seem to be working. My dealer are still trying to figure what's wrong with it.

Hmm could be the rear diff clutches, Haldex ECU or the transfer box. Had a nightemare with mine 6 months or so ago.

davc · Mar 18, 2017

Mine is playing up as well.

The Gen 4 was a more reliable system in my view and I never had any issues with my 8p.

PhatGit · Mar 19, 2017

Cheers guys. Looks like some time off to get it in a steeler that is interested. Gotta say, I'm not feeling the love from Audi at the moment and increasingly feeling we are paying a premium for quality that doesn't exist.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 10, 2017

Tried a launch last week.... and left the longest set of 11's you've seen - not happy!
I can spin it up at will anywhere up to 60mph now - going in to audi for transmission / brake fluid changes and haldex (pump) investigation on 19th
:sob:

2 years old and my first issue - so could be worse

A.ShawnS3 · Apr 10, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
Tried a launch last week.... and left the longest set of 11's you've seen - not happy!
I can spin it up at will anywhere up to 60mph now - going in to audi for transmission / brake fluid changes and haldex (pump) investigation on 19th

2 years old and my first issue - so could be worse

Just got my car back after having gearbox replaced which has cured the problem, issue was with the transfer box. Get them to test that before you spend money on the fluid changes tbh.

RedRS3Reilly · Apr 10, 2017

Had exactly the same problem 6 months ago, 99% sure the transfer box is fecked,

Rob2k68 · Apr 11, 2017

Took mine to VRS who were excellent when I had my Haldex woes rather than a main dealer due to all of my mods. Worked through the obvious, pump and ECU then moved onto bigger more expensive things!

M1ke H · Apr 11, 2017

Had an issue with mine recently which started as a noise every time the clutch was depressed. I had started to wonder if it was the clutch release bearing, it was that sort of noise! Took it to the dealer for the Master Tech to have a listen to. He was as puzzled as me, but we spoke about water pumps, tensioners and a whole host of stuff it might possibly be, but he asked me to book it in and allow them three days.

I booked it in for what was then a couple of weeks time due to the need for a courtesy car for three days etc...

In the meantime, the sound changed from not being when the clutch was depressed, but to when it was being released and irrespective of whether the car was in gear or not. By now the noise was definitely coming from the rear axle.

To cut a long story short, the dealer called me at 7:00pm on the first day telling me the car was fixed! I couldn't get down at that time so went to pick it up first thing the next morning. I had a long chat with the Master Tech who told me he had been talking to Audi UK about it, and on the verge of ordering a new 'rear axle', when they advised him that he had to carry out the Haldex software update before doing anything further. They did this, and to his, mine, and everyone's surprise it does seem to have resolved the issue.

The only concern I have is as to what if any unseen damage may have been done, given the racket it was making, but have been assured that as it was reported and resolved under warranty (expires in two months) any consequential damage/repairs necessary will be carried out under warranty without issue.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 11, 2017

@M1ke H is your car stock or modded?

M1ke H · Apr 11, 2017

As it left the factory (give or take several thousand miles...

).

Rob2k68 · Apr 12, 2017

M1ke H said:
Had an issue with mine recently which started as a noise every time the clutch was depressed. I had started to wonder if it was the clutch release bearing, it was that sort of noise! Took it to the dealer for the Master Tech to have a listen to. He was as puzzled as me, but we spoke about water pumps, tensioners and a whole host of stuff it might possibly be, but he asked me to book it in and allow them three days.

I booked it in for what was then a couple of weeks time due to the need for a courtesy car for three days etc...

In the meantime, the sound changed from not being when the clutch was depressed, but to when it was being released and irrespective of whether the car was in gear or not. By now the noise was definitely coming from the rear axle.

To cut a long story short, the dealer called me at 7:00pm on the first day telling me the car was fixed! I couldn't get down at that time so went to pick it up first thing the next morning. I had a long chat with the Master Tech who told me he had been talking to Audi UK about it, and on the verge of ordering a new 'rear axle', when they advised him that he had to carry out the Haldex software update before doing anything further. They did this, and to his, mine, and everyone's surprise it does seem to have resolved the issue.

The only concern I have is as to what if any unseen damage may have been done, given the racket it was making, but have been assured that as it was reported and resolved under warranty (expires in two months) any consequential damage/repairs necessary will be carried out under warranty without issue.

Interesting, you wouldn't happen to know what software version you went from and to would you ?

M1ke H · Apr 12, 2017

@Rob2k68 Away for Easter at the mo, but may be able to find out when I get back.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 13, 2017

So spoke at length to Audi yesterday and have agreed that fluids won't resolve the issue - so I'll be saving on all that.

They know my cars modded so we'll see what happens.

I'm going to print off some of the posts above for them to look at first. How cool to provide a forum based diagnosis that they can confirm. Could save a fortune on investigative time.

Will advise after 19th.

Rob2k68 · Apr 13, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
So spoke at length to Audi yesterday and have agreed that fluids won't resolve the issue - so I'll be saving on all that.

They know my cars modded so we'll see what happens.

I'm going to print off some of the posts above for them to look at first. How cool to provide a forum based diagnosis that they can confirm. Could save a fortune on investigative time.

Will advise after 19th.

Hope it goes well - mine had Haldex pump, ECU software then the transfer box!

Only ever done one launch could have had issues for months only discovered it when it wouldn't put the power down on the dyno.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 15, 2017

Rob2k68 said:
Hope it goes well - mine had Haldex pump, ECU software then the transfer box!

Only ever done one launch could have had issues for months only discovered it when it wouldn't put the power down on the dyno.

Was that all warrantee covered Rob?

Rob2k68 · Apr 15, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
Was that all warrantee covered Rob?

I didn't even try mate just went to an independent VAG specialist.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 29, 2017

So....

It was indeed the transfer box that developed a 'fault'...
I was also told that the Haldex pump had (audi words) 'gunk' in it !!

So the work's been done and all is back to how it should be (as my IG vids show).

Almost two weeks after tho, I received a call from Audi U.K. (Via my dealer) saying that their super computer has logged a 'mod flag' and that my car is no longer warranty covered.
I informed them that there are cars / owners on here that have encountered the exact same issues on 100% stock cars - so it can't be down to my remapped ECU / TCU and that if I had another warranty claim (I used a faulty window motor as an example) that they refused to honour I'd take them to court to resolve it.
I fully accept that if my turbo explodes then that's potentially my own doing and fully understand their stance on it but for a non-affected part I will fight them all the way.

I'd like to confirm that my dealer has been exceptional from order to now, 2 years in.

The end
:hi:

GSB · Apr 29, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
So....

It was indeed the transfer box that developed a 'fault'...
I was also told that the Haldex pump had (audi words) 'gunk' in it !!

So the work's been done and all is back to how it should be (as my IG vids show).

Almost two weeks after tho, I received a call from Audi U.K. (Via my dealer) saying that their super computer has logged a 'mod flag' and that my car is no longer warranty covered.
I informed them that there are cars / owners on here that have encountered the exact same issues on 100% stock cars - so it can't be down to my remapped ECU / TCU and that if I had another warranty claim (I used a faulty window motor as an example) that they refused to honour I'd take them to court to resolve it.
I fully accept that if my turbo explodes then that's potentially my own doing and fully understand their stance on it but for a non-affected part I will fight them all the way.

I'd like to confirm that my dealer has been exceptional from order to now, 2 years in.

The end

The dreaded "TD1" code. I was listening to the smoking tire podcast recently, and they were talking to the owner of a company that tunes McLaren cars, offering triple turbo kits that go all the way up to 1200hp, using the McLaren ECU to control it all. They had to a fair bit of clever hacking to do this, and inserted several thousand lines of new code into the program so they could run an extra turbo without losing all the other good stuff like traction control and active aero. Coming back to the point though, part of the conversation reflected upon how manufacturers are coming up with more and more ways of preventing and/or detecting third party tampering with the code in the ECU's. The leaders in the field at that particular endeavour? There are two. One, you'll be unsurprised to find out, is Audi. The other (weirdly) is John Deere Tractors.

John Deere are currently the subject of a big legal case in the states that could have huge repercussions for the tuning industry as a whole. Essentially, John Deer seem to be arguing that while you own the vehicles, the software that runs them is propriety copyrighted material that you only have a license to use for the lifetime of the vehicle. If they succeed in arguing thier case, then the ECU code is subject to the DMCA copyright laws, and hacking into it becomes a federal offence. This would make hacking any cars ECU illegal in the US, and what's illegal in the US has a habit of becoming illegal by extension everywhere else.... Even if the law doesnt extend to the UK, things like VCDS will be under threat, since its an American product.

Rob2k68 · Apr 30, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
So....

It was indeed the transfer box that developed a 'fault'...
I was also told that the Haldex pump had (audi words) 'gunk' in it !!

So the work's been done and all is back to how it should be (as my IG vids show).

Almost two weeks after tho, I received a call from Audi U.K. (Via my dealer) saying that their super computer has logged a 'mod flag' and that my car is no longer warranty covered.
I informed them that there are cars / owners on here that have encountered the exact same issues on 100% stock cars - so it can't be down to my remapped ECU / TCU and that if I had another warranty claim (I used a faulty window motor as an example) that they refused to honour I'd take them to court to resolve it.
I fully accept that if my turbo explodes then that's potentially my own doing and fully understand their stance on it but for a non-affected part I will fight them all the way.

I'd like to confirm that my dealer has been exceptional from order to now, 2 years in.

The end

I think I'd take that mate the transfer box new from Audi is 1.8k on its own but with you all the way on non related systems. Surprised they didn't do a 'scan' prior to any remedial work though.

DrMal · Apr 30, 2017

GSB said:
The dreaded "TD1" code. I was listening to the smoking tire podcast recently, and they were talking to the owner of a company that tunes McLaren cars, offering triple turbo kits that go all the way up to 1200hp, using the McLaren ECU to control it all. They had to a fair bit of clever hacking to do this, and inserted several thousand lines of new code into the program so they could run an extra turbo without losing all the other good stuff like traction control and active aero. Coming back to the point though, part of the conversation reflected upon how manufacturers are coming up with more and more ways of preventing and/or detecting third party tampering with the code in the ECU's. The leaders in the field at that particular endeavour? There are two. One, you'll be unsurprised to find out, is Audi. The other (weirdly) is John Deere Tractors.

John Deere are currently the subject of a big legal case in the states that could have huge repercussions for the tuning industry as a whole. Essentially, John Deer seem to be arguing that while you own the vehicles, the software that runs them is propriety copyrighted material that you only have a license to use for the lifetime of the vehicle. If they succeed in arguing thier case, then the ECU code is subject to the DMCA copyright laws, and hacking into it becomes a federal offence. This would make hacking any cars ECU illegal in the US, and what's illegal in the US has a habit of becoming illegal by extension everywhere else.... Even if the law doesnt extend to the UK, things like VCDS will be under threat, since its an American product.

When I last worked in automotive powertrain (7-ish years ago) I remember seeing a draft spec which, if the vehicle manufacturer (VAG) had decided to implement it, would have effectively created an encrypted and authenticated network between all of the ECUs in the vehicle. It had multiple layers of encryption and tied-in with the code checksum, so a dealer would have been able to make some changes, but the core code and calibrations would be inaccessible or if changed would render the entire CAN network inoperable. I know an agricultural equipment manufacturer had been looking at something similar. It didn't get implemented at the time, but with increasing connectivity, more complex driver assistance systems, and self driving systems on the way, code integrity will become more of an issue.

If I were in the aftermarket "chipping" business, I'd be concerned about the future. They were employing some pretty interesting methods ten years ago to get their hands on code. It was alleged where I worked that when one software engineer left, he took the specs, source code, binaries and memory maps for several powertrain systems with him and sold them on for a lot of money.

If the VMs do assert their IP and implement technical means to lock-out the aftermarket, things are going to look very different.

GSB · Apr 30, 2017

I suppose this level of complexity was inevitable, but there are some sinister things going on this field at the moment.

The new complexity makes the task of cracking into an ECU to change things very very difficult indeed, but, not impossible. As we've seen before the tuners will employ the latest generation of super geeks from MIT or Cambridge who are always up for a challenge to crack it, the game continues and it will be business as usual.

The John Deere case though, that's a slightly different kettle of fish, with the VM's looking to secure a slightly iffy legal precendent on the back of some pretty flimsy piracy prevention argument that as a side effect will make the mere act of cracking their codes (never mind actually changing them) illegal. This could be a big issue, and will effectively stop chipping and remapping dead. The only 'Tuners" left will be the likes of AMG, Brabus, Callaway etc. who are already either owned by OEMs or have a significant standing relationship with them.

There is a hope that it will fall flat though. The 'merkins consider personal liberty to be a God given inalienable right, and that extends to fixing their own cars. Despite this, the US EPA actually sought to include engine management software specifically in the DMCA so that it would be totally illegal for anyone to anything that might circumvent a vehicles emissions controls. A few months later though, VAG was discovered with its hand in the till and was already circumventing its own emissions controls when it knew the EPA was looking the other way. With a bit of luck that might become a compelling reason to maintain transparency in these systems.

Fingers crossed.

DrMal · Apr 30, 2017

We're going a bit off topic here @GSB, but your take on the US element to this is very interesting, hadn't heard about this before. I don't know why VAG decided not to implement the spec, maybe the industry wasn't ready for it at the time.

I think the game changer will be self driving cars. Eventually there will have to be some legislative/regulatory change if the driver stops being ultimately responsible for the vehicle while software is in control. I can't see VMs agreeing to that unless the integrity of all of the software is assured.

It is, and will continue to be, an "arms race" between the tuners and the VMs. Actually it's wider than that, it's a competition between VMs and anyone wanting to hack a car. Sooner or later the threat of terrorists hacking entire fleets of cars or someone deploying ransomware will become reality. We're faced with that emerging threat where I work now (medical technology).

GSB · Apr 30, 2017

DrMal said:
We're going a bit off topic here....

Don't worry Doc, I don't think anyone's reading anymore... @sjbarneS3 had his car fixed, its warranty voided because he's tuned his car, and then he utterly failed to start crying and bleating about it like a child who's had his toys taken away, and instead conveyed a reasonably mature response to the news. Since this is an absolute first in worldwide internet car forum history, I suspect everyone else has slipped off with him held high on their virtual shoulders for the celebratory champagne and cakes, and left us nerds to it... Hello? Anyone there? Nope... it's just us Doc.

sjbarneS3 · Apr 30, 2017

GSB said:
Don't worry Doc, I don't think anyone's reading anymore... @sjbarneS3 had his car fixed, its warranty voided because he's tuned his car, and then he utterly failed to start crying and bleating about it like a child who's had his toys taken away, and instead conveyed a reasonably mature response to the news. Since this is an absolute first in worldwide internet car forum history, I suspect everyone else has slipped off with him held high on their virtual shoulders for the celebratory champagne and cakes, and left us nerds to it... Hello? Anyone there? Nope... it's just us Doc.

In all fairness I'd very much to keep this alive as I've heard of another 15/65 reg car (albeit STOCK) have the same issues I have had... proving it can't be down to the 'tune'

Tom.H · Apr 30, 2017

Didn't SEAT basically take the stance with the Leon chap that he'd broken the terms of the finance contract by modifying his car as it technically wasn't his property? (Not sure if yours is on finance mate but sure that's the route they went down)

He was also told he had to pay for the car in full within 28 days from memory!

sjbarneS3 · Apr 30, 2017

Tom.H said:
Didn't SEAT basically take the stance with the Leon chap that he'd broken the terms of the finance contract by modifying his car as it technically wasn't his property? (Not sure if yours is on finance mate but sure that's the route they went down)

He was also told he had to pay for the car in full within 28 days from memory!

Paid for pal

Tom.H · Apr 30, 2017

Ah good stuff

GSB · Apr 30, 2017

sjbarneS3 said:
In all fairness I'd very much to keep this alive as I've heard of another 15/65 reg car (albeit STOCK) have the same issues I have had... proving it can't be down to the 'tune'

Err... does it?

All it really says is that another car suffered a similar failure without putting an extra unwarranted lump of power through it. A sample of 1 car probably doesn't meet the standards where it can be considered statistically relevant though, so you can't draw that conclusion, yet. The flip side of that same argument would say that this particular AWD system has been mounted under several thousand well used Golf R's and S3's since 2012, and the there's a far bigger sample of them that are just fine...

Playing devils advocate for a moment though, you definitely can't claim that putting an extra 10, 15 or 20% torque through your transfer box is inconsequential to its chances of failure, since torque is a key design factor in all transmission designs.

Still, it'll be interesting to hear what failure this other car has suffered.

Mac135 · May 1, 2017

GSB said:
Don't worry Doc, I don't think anyone's reading anymore... @sjbarneS3 had his car fixed, its warranty voided because he's tuned his car, and then he utterly failed to start crying and bleating about it like a child who's had his toys taken away, and instead conveyed a reasonably mature response to the news. Since this is an absolute first in worldwide internet car forum history, I suspect everyone else has slipped off with him held high on their virtual shoulders for the celebratory champagne and cakes, and left us nerds to it... Hello? Anyone there? Nope... it's just us Doc.

On the contrary this is fascinating. Just catching up. Ironic that VM are working to protect their code in the ways you describe but seem to be able to do little with respect to protecting our investment in the car from thieves.

DrMal · May 1, 2017

The cynic in me says that somewhere deep in each VM there's someone trading-off the increased sales they make due to theft, versus the harm it does to their reputation if a car is seen by the public as insecure.

On another thread about the poor guy who was killed by thieves, there was discussion about anti-theft approaches that could counter that. The irony is that all of the main components are now present: a connected car, web interface through which you could issue a shut-down command, ability to retrieve location based on GPS, CAN connected modules. All it would need would be a strategy to gradually reduce maximum available torque to zero and you have a built in anti-theft system. Problem is, what's to stop others hacking in to it - and we're back to the argument about the need to secure a car's software infrastructure!

HALDEX issue?

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