Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

antwan64og said:
Thats interesting that Bill and John both like to use hybrid alpha N as load on turbo engines.

Some people mainly advocate hybrid alpha N for N/A motors with wild cams and supercharged engines if needed as boost is pretty linear with throttle.

i learn something new everyday, the emerald tuning suite looks quite nice.

Sometimes tuning works well just by how it "feels", I tweaked the carbs on my bike till it felt better and got I it dyno'd it was spot on.
Click to expand...


It is interesting isn't it? I'm finding all this stuff fascinating so far.

I've not pestered Bill too much as I know he's a very busy man, but I spoke to John at Emerald (Jonno on here wth the red a3!), who advised that both he and Bill would use TPS/RPM with MAP comp when mapping a K6, even though the ECU is capable of doing speed density also (MAP vs RPM)

I'd be interested to hear Bills thoughts if he gets a minute to read the mountain of rubbish I'm posting :laugh:
 
Its all interesting, MS has the option for barometric correction but the MAP compensation table looks soooo simple.

Can you post a pic of your fuel table, just interested in what units it uses.
 
antwan64og said:
Its all interesting, MS has the option for barometric correction but the MAP compensation table looks soooo simple.

Can you post a pic of your fuel table, just interested in what units it uses.
Click to expand...
none.. just an 8 bit number 0-255
scaled in another menu.. micro seconds per something or other from memory
 
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antwan64og said:
Thats interesting that Bill and John both like to use hybrid alpha N as load on turbo engines.

Some people mainly advocate hybrid alpha N for N/A motors with wild cams and supercharged engines if needed as boost is pretty linear with throttle.

i learn something new everyday, the emerald tuning suite looks quite nice.

Sometimes tuning works well just by how it "feels", I tweaked the carbs on my bike till it felt better and got I it dyno'd it was spot on.
Click to expand...
there are 2 camps in terms of considering alpha n and map compensation right or wrong approach.. Its what allan @ dta told me to use back when noah was a lad, and I've used it since effectively. Works for me.
 
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Looking good Nick

Must be a lovely feeling and sense of achievement doing it yourself! Can't wait to learn and do mine :)
 
badger5 said:
there are 2 camps in terms of considering alpha n and map compensation right or wrong approach.. Its what allan @ dta told me to use back when noah was a lad, and I've used it since effectively. Works for me.
Click to expand...

Then it's good enough for me :) !

If the emerald is capable of speed density (which it is), and the likes of yourself, and even the people who make the ecu still prefer to use alpha N with map compensation, then there has to be some merit to it.

Making map tweaks up to 14 psi, then finding that it still fuels bang on at 18psi must be one of those reasons why the map compensation is a good setup!

StaceyS3 said:
Looking good Nick

Must be a lovely feeling and sense of achievement doing it yourself! Can't wait to learn and do mine :)
Click to expand...

It's awesome mate. Really really rewarding, even if I didn't make and wire up a custom loom, just getting it running them improving it is a great feeling.

The first time I opened it up and managed a full pull through the revs with decent fuelling was awesome, and getting the hard cut Rev limiter (set very low initially) was absolutely ****** terrifying!

I've not driven it since Monday though, once I confirmed the date with Bill in just 2 weeks time I went straight home and pulled it all apart to give it a decent check over and refresh a few things to make sure it's absolutely 100% for mapping :)
 
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badger5 said:
there are 2 camps in terms of considering alpha n and map compensation right or wrong approach.. Its what allan @ dta told me to use back when noah was a lad, and I've used it since effectively. Works for me.
Click to expand...
:iagree: Nothing's changed. Both methods work, it's up to the tuner to use what they're most comfortable with.
*thumbs up smiley, which I can't find*
 
Prawn said:
I am still waiting to speak to my boss, who is never around, so I can confirm a day off and get back to Bill about booking in a date!

I'm going to spend the next week or two working on maps on the road, because I really want to fully learn and understand it all fully, then I'll be heading to Bill to put the car on the dyno and be judged for my first attempt at mapping, then hopefully, after some inevitable **** taking, he'll take pitty on me and work some Badger magic on it and make it fly :D

Then @Gops can send me some of those nice stickers he had made ;)
Click to expand...


Hehe feel free to take them from the glovebox! :)
 
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Gops said:
Hehe feel free to take them from the glovebox! :)
Click to expand...

Fanx G :hearteyes:
sparrow said:
:iagree: Nothing's changed. Both methods work, it's up to the tuner to use what they're most comfortable with.
Click to expand...

Alex - reading about your recent findings at the dyno day, am I correct in thinking that your ECU was tuned using Alpha N without any form of MAP compensation? It'll be interesting to see what gains are possible when that's altered. Will you be changing to speed density? or just adding in MAP compensation?

So, after Monday nights highly successful test drive, It rained loads on Tuesday, so there wasn't much point in going out and experimenting with boost profiles!

Instead, I got the heater on in the garage, and did some work on it instead.

First task was to pull a load of bits off and make a mess:



This bracket was very much in the way of the new catch can location, so I drilled the spot welds, and pulled it off:



Then a few coats of zinc primer on the bare metal, and some satin black to colour it:



I was keen to make sure the bonnet strut didn't come into contact with the catch can when installed, so I sparyed a thick layer of satin black onto a piece of polystyrene, offered it into position, then closed the bonnet and looked for whitness marks:



You can JUST see the tiniest of whitness marks in the paint here. This confirmed that so long as I was 10mm down from the inner edge of the wing mounting height I'd be fine:



I offered the catch can in, drilled 2 holes, and added Riv nuts to the inner wing to mount it:



Next up I cut the end off my existing turbo intake, and laid out the bits as I planned to have my new inlet route:



Then offered it into the engine bay:



Hmmmmmmmmm, not sure if the filter is big enough? :shrug:

I then offered the filter into place with the catch can and made sure (again) that everything would fit:





Attention then turned to making the TIP more solid. It's always flapped around previously, and only stayed put because the filter was jammed up against the inner wing.

I started by fitting a Mikalor clamp around the pipe, and making a few little templates to see if I could secure it somewhere:



This idea seemed best, so I transfered the shape into steel:



Then a few modifications were made to sit the pipe where I wanted:



This goes into a spare hole on the cam covered that I ran a tap through:



Somewhere along this process, I whipped the inlet manifold off, and stuck it in the dish washer :laugh:

Victoria came home around 18:30, made me a coffee, and thanked me for doing the washing up and putting the dish washer on :hearteyes:

10 minutes later she came back out to the garage - ''Hang on, There wasn't much washing up last night, WHAT'S IN THE DISH WASHER!?''

:laugh: :scared2: :laugh:

Haha, she was fine with it though, because shes awesome!



Next up I needed to make a new heat shield, as previous attempts had been poorly secured, and had either cracked, or broken off entirely.

Always one to recycle, Dad had given me this old stainless tray from his catering days:



Which nicely formed the start of this:



After a bit more cutting and some bending:



I ran a tap through all the threads on the new cam cover too, so avoid any of the powdercoat causing issues:



I think that's about it for now on the hardware site of it! I've done a little more work on the map I have so far, using the graphical functions to spot anomolies and smooth things out, but until I've got the car back together I can't test those changes, and I don't want to make too many changes without testing inbetween.

Hopefully, a productive weekend lies ahead!
 
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Prawn said:
Alex - reading about your recent findings at the dyno day, am I correct in thinking that your ECU was tuned using Alpha N without any form of MAP compensation? It'll be interesting to see what gains are possible when that's altered. Will you be changing to speed density? or just adding in MAP compensation?
Click to expand...

Yes, my car was originally mapped on Alpha-N with no compensation. It's the safest method, as there's no risk of sensor failure causing the engine to go bang. However, that safety has compromises, such as less power.
To be honest, the car has enough power as it is. However, it's a great learning experience, as you're discovering.

I'm actually booked in to Stealth to spend some time on the rollers to switch on MAP compensations in a couple of weeks. They did the original map, which was very good.
 
that's a handy bit of kit you have there nick for cleaning your engine hardware ;)

new cover looks message better than the tired old one!
 
I really like the look of your filter haha


Can't wait to see it back together and on the rollers!
 
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Prawn said:
So, 17 year old plastic is brittle....Who knew?
Click to expand...
I did!
DSC 1155

DSC 1254
 
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No desire for a heat shield / filter holder?

Is there a phenolic spacer on your inlet?

Gasket match the inlet manifold if you get bored, I swear dpwn the car
 
antwan64og said:
No desire for a heat shield / filter holder?

Is there a phenolic spacer on your inlet?

Gasket match the inlet manifold if you get bored, I swear dpwn the car
Click to expand...

Desire for a heat shield? Never had one, not too fussed of I'm completely honest! Its always made great power without.

There is a phenolic spacer yes, and to answer your 3rd question, I think I could definitely benefit from some port matching! 200%
 
I don't think the heat shield helps per se, it just cleans up the bay a bit.

It probably took me 5 hours to port match the inlet manifold, the car definitely pulls better midrange to up top. My crappy ko3 was pretty maxed out already but it did mean I pulled the max airflow from earlier in the rev range to redline.

Free horse power anyway.

On the ko3 TFSI the Americans pick up 10hp from porting the exhaust manifold but thats more effort getting it all apart.....
 
The issue on mine with regards to ports is that the phenolic is a gasket copy, so it's actually larger than the head ports and creates a step. I've never checked to see how the mani lines up to the phenolic, but to do it right I'd need to start a fresh with a small port phenolic I think and blend it all in.

Did some more driving yesterday, and worked a little on boost.

I also figured out the data logging side of it, so now I can do this!

 
badgerwagen had its phenolic and cyl port matched to loose the lower edge step and dowelled to the head and SEM so everything lines up. The devils in the detail... ;)
 
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One day I'll get round to such measures, these are all jobs to go on the list when I'm finally moved into the garage properly once it's decorated :) I got a white board over the weekend from Luke, so I'll have somewhere to write my to-do list shortly!

So, back to the weekends progress.

After I finished making my heat shield, I decided to clean it up a bit.

I had the idea of running the flap wheel over it lightly to give it a brushed finish:



I think we can all agree - that looks ****. :(

So I painted the top side of it, and left the underside shiney to reflect better:



Next up was the shiney new cam cover and gasket:



Old one off, and everything looked pretty good inside still:



New one into place, looks pretty bright!



Coilpacks cleaned up and dropped in:



Coilpack loom stripped back and checked, all the wires looked OK with no signs of cracking or damage from heat, so I rewrapped it all in non adhesive loom tape:



Next up I cleaned up my phenolic spacer:



And installed that along with 2 gaskets:



And then on with the freshly painted inlet:



Followed by the fuel rail, with petroleum jelly on all the seals to stop them from drying out:



Andy noticed that the fuel feed line was in a pretty poor state:



Eek:sign omg:

So that was replaced!

I cut down some bolts, and fitted the black painted heatshield, you can hardly see it!

Even up close it's basically invisible. Charge pipe bracket also installed here:



All that was left, was to get out my shoe horn and squeeze in the largest air filter I've ever seen, and it was done!





 
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First test drive was Sunday, when i took it out to a little local meet with Tony and Luke, which turned out to be fairly rubbish :laugh: but entertaining all the same:



Then in the afternoon I did some more driving, and some work on fueling and playing about with boost delivery.

AFR corrections still recording fairly high numbers:



It's driving very well, but there is still a long way to go to refine it to a point where I'd be happy. I'd like to get as close as I can before it goes on the dyno though, just for my own education really.

I did manage to figure out the logging software though, and recorded a few logs.

This is the second log I took, where I was experimenting with trying to get boost to rise progressively after spool.



Green trace is RPM, Yellow is AFR, and Red is Boost.

Boost rises to 1 bar at spool up, then rises steadily to 1.3 bar at 7k rpm, with a tiny level out around 6k. Duty cycle at 7k was at 55%, so there is plenty of scope to ask for more :racer: Inlet temp seems pretty reasonable too, peaking at 29 degrees after repeated pulls, with no meth or water injection.

The top left of the pull is 12.6:1 AFR as it spools around 3k, tapering down to 11.1 at 7k. Slightly rich for sure, but at least it's safe whilst I'm learning.

For now, it's tucked away in it's new home again :)

 
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so how much is bill going to be doing here? ?? seems a pointless journey atm!! :)

I wish I understood more about all this but I guess you are pleased with the way it's going so far.
you haven't bent or broke anything which is good lol

is it turning into one of those things you wished you had done years ago?
 
Only recently just joined and am reading this bit by bit, seriously impressive! I think I may have actually seen this car on a ramp at bills in February when I was getting my leon mapped?

A 1 min 17 at Combe is ****** good! I managed a 1.24 in my cupra on a "stage 2 custom" map by bill and michelin supersports and I was very happy with that!

Oh and I think it's the first page of this thread where you mention doing sub 9s at the ring with only 230 odd bhp? Well thank you for showing how crap I am cos I'm still at 9.02 with 272! :bye:
 
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daz-20vt said:
so how much is bill going to be doing here? ?? seems a pointless journey atm!! :)

is it turning into one of those things you wished you had done years ago?
Click to expand...

Far far far from pointless, I'm still at the very beginnings of this. Fuelling still needs lots of work, and I've not even considered timing yet which is probably the most important bit and the hardest to setup on the road.

It'll also be good to get some comparable data compared to the old me3.8 setup which we ran on Bills dyno just last month.

I've wanted to go standalone for a very long time, and I've been set on Emerald for the last 3 years, it was just a case of waiting for a few things to align to make it all possible :)

daz-20vt said:
also what's the phenolic spacer thingy you have
Click to expand...
Phenolic spacer - a thermally non conductive barrier between the head and the inlet manifold, stops heat tracking from the head back up to the inlet manifold causing heat soak :)
 
Irf said:
Only recently just joined and am reading this bit by bit, seriously impressive! I think I may have actually seen this car on a ramp at bills in February when I was getting my leon mapped?

A 1 min 17 at Combe is ****** good! I managed a 1.24 in my cupra on a "stage 2 custom" map by bill and michelin supersports and I was very happy with that!

Oh and I think it's the first page of this thread where you mention doing sub 9s at the ring with only 230 odd bhp? Well thank you for showing how **** I am cos I'm still at 9.02 with 272! :bye:
Click to expand...

Thanks Irf :) glad you're enjoying the read! I sometimes read back through the early pages and wonder how on earth I ended up here! Haha.

I've been going to Combe for a good few years now, so I know it reasonably well and feel at home there.
We got down to 1:21's on the ko3s at 208bhp to give you an idea, but some of the vag trophy cars are down to 1:18's on a ko3s still! When you start going quickly a few seconds becomes a really big chunk to find, so all the last 4 years of work have equates to around a 4-5s gain at Combe as an example track.

8:40 at the ring with 208bhp back in 2011, 08:21 in 2012 with 290bhp, and never been back since, although going by a few others I know who still go I think if we returned now it could be comfortably in the high 7's. Who knows, maybe one day we'll go back?

Nice to hear someone else is using their car on track :racer: come and say hello if we're ever on a trackday together :)
 
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...of which 10% is engine work, 20% building the garage and the rest fuel and tyres!
 
antwan64og said:
£30,000?
:respekt:
Click to expand...

:sign omg::sign unfair::sign ban:

We are not allowed to discuss such things :laugh:

My life appears to be changing, it's like being in the matrix!

Where I used to spend my evenings watching TV and browsing ASN, I now spend them on the netbook looking at things like this!



The above is a random little motorway pull in 3rd and 4th, don't read too much into it :laugh:

I started looking at the fuelling last night, and taking a few logs.

I still have much to do, but it's getting closer:



The above is a pull in 3rd, up a steep hill, on actuator pressure. I've added the orange trace, which shows ignition advance. There is slightly more advance in this map than previous. I know I shouldn't be playing with ignition too much at this stage, but I was uncomfortable with the high EGT's caused by the conservative spark table, and from my VAGcom logs I know the car previously ran 25 degrees of advance from quite early in the revs, at 1.5 bar of boost, so I've nudged the spark table up a little to wake it up, but keeping it pretty safe with ~23 degrees at 1 bar at the very top end.

Just adding this small amount of timing has made it feel much more urgent, and has also reduced EGT's considerably, so it's win win :)

As a contrast, here's a little pull, in 3rd, on the same stretch, with the N75 on.



Due to the way the map compensation is currently setup, the map corrects the ignition down at higher boost, so for the same RPM, it's now giving just 18.5 degrees of timing, keeping things safe.The AFR is also richer as part of the map compensation.

Because of the corrections, the car actually felt faster last night at actuator pressure. 23.5 degrees of advance at 14 psi felt more lively than 19 psi with 18.5 degrees, so it shows just how important optimising the timing is. Not something I will risk on the road at all, and better left to someone more experienced like Bill, on a dyno in a controlled environment.

I think we will also end up reducing the MAP compensations from where they are currently. It's set to pull 13 degrees of timing out at 1.3 bar of boost compared to the raw map, but in order to get back to the 25 degrees it used to run, this would mean requesting 38 degrees from the RAW map pre-correction, which just seems strange and too high to me.

You can also see that the fuelling isn't as good when the boost is increased. Despite the lumpy looking curve, it's still between 11.3 and 12.4, so a safe range, but not as smooth as it should be. I'm trying a map this evening with the MAP compensations for both timing and AFR target reduced slightly.

All in all, I'm finding this HUGELY enjoyable so far. I think it's something I could go on tweaking forever to be honest.

I found last night, that as I'm doing pulls at light throttle around town, and full throttle when loading, and ti's only adapting in certain areas at the moment, leaving the map looking odd.

Currently, load sites 12-14 all have higher values then the highest load site, 15, because a full throttle pull is entirely in load site 15, so that's been adapting well, but then if you back off to 90% throttle it ventures into unchartered areas of the map and goes rich.

I'd like to get the bottom line of the table (WOT) fuelling correctly, then interpolate backwards to take out the odd points in the map. It's all a learning curve, and I'm sure once it's set up on the dyno I'll continue fiddling on other maps for my own learning, but it'll be nice to know that when i need to use the car in anger, I will have a good known map I can load on and know it's bang on :) That dyno map will also form the basis of any future tweaks I want to make to the way it delivers the power.

Given that I'm 100% new to this, I'm amazed at how well the car is driving already, and how good it feels, and I'm very excited to think there there is lots more to come from it, both in terms of refinement and power.

I'm very much looking forward to taking it home to Plymouth over the christmas break to drive it again on the local roads where I grew up :)

Maybe we should try to oraganise a mini south west meet between christmas and new year? I know there are a load of members down that way :racer:
 
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One thing to possibly note is that 20 degrees timing on one ecu may not be 20 degrees on another ecu platform due to crank angle/trigger offsets. For one you'd ideally verify the timing, secondly you'll just be tuning to what the engine wants not arbituary values.

This why you can't just take an aggressive timing map from a similar set up on say an AEM ECU and whale on it if you throw megasquirt or whatever on a car.
 
Very true Ant. Probably most relevant when changing types / positions of the main pick up sensors.

Thankfully, it's not the case on mine, and with the correct ecu config a value of 25 degrees on me3.8 with 0 cf should directly correlate to 25 degrees from the k6 at any given point.

Back in my mini days crank sensor alignments often differed wildly due to the retrofit nature on a mini, and people were swapping maps and running into all sorts of issues as they were often +/- 10 degrees on sensor placement.
 
Prawn said:
I'm very much looking forward to taking it home to Plymouth over the christmas break to drive it again on the local roads where I grew up :)

Maybe we should try to oraganise a mini south west meet between christmas and new year? I know there are a load of members down that way :racer:
Click to expand...

YES.

I want to see this car in the flesh! I'm off work during the christmas break so would be well up for a little meet around then.
 
haha, still come along dude :) be good to catch up properly

We shall have to make plans for a little meet up and a drive on the moors or similar in the week between christmas and new years.

I've done it for the past few years with Pierre and others and it's always been a good laugh :)
 
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