3 weeks in and struggling with the steering
- Thread starter perazzi
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Lifeless and without feel, yes, correct.
Putting it into dynamic just adds friction without any further feel.
It's the Audi way.
Putting it into dynamic just adds friction without any further feel.
It's the Audi way.
Do you know the feel of the steering is the one gripe I don't have. I turn the wheel and it goes round the corner. I can't tell th difference between the drive select settings - in all cases the same thing happens, I turn the wheel and go round the corner 
. Is it me or is everyone else a wuss?
. Is it me or is everyone else a wuss?It's like this on the Audi A4, A5, A1 as well from the one's I've driven. My 04 plate golf was the same also. Only car I think I've ever had really good feedback from is Ford. Even the last 3 series I drove felt a bit lacklustre in the 'steering feels' department, apart from when you tend to lose the back end.
True, you will find a lot of whiners on this forum, and not many people who encourage you to buy one of the cars they tend to own, lol.Do you know the feel of the steering is the one gripe I don't have. I turn the wheel and it goes round the corner. I can't tell th difference between the drive select settings - in all cases the same thing happens, I turn the wheel and go round the corner
perazzi,
I agree, one of the best things about my previous B8 A4 was how smooth and responsive the steering was and which appeared to build and improve on the 8P standard. I find the latest A3 steering resistant and a little jerky whatever the settings. Audi appear to have gone backwards with this one I think but still a great car.
I agree, one of the best things about my previous B8 A4 was how smooth and responsive the steering was and which appeared to build and improve on the 8P standard. I find the latest A3 steering resistant and a little jerky whatever the settings. Audi appear to have gone backwards with this one I think but still a great car.
Notchy /Jerky:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/steering-issues.233350/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/notchy-steering.181976/
Steering goes from light to heavy mid corner:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-a3-ride-handling-honest-opinions.240977/page-3#post-2423904
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/what-dont-you-like-about-your-a3.233458/page-2#post-2332339
The standard rack is "better" than the variable ratio rack:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-or-rs3.247001/page-2#post-2491675
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/sick-s3.241623/#post-2427473
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/steering-issues.233350/
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/notchy-steering.181976/
Steering goes from light to heavy mid corner:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-a3-ride-handling-honest-opinions.240977/page-3#post-2423904
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/what-dont-you-like-about-your-a3.233458/page-2#post-2332339
The standard rack is "better" than the variable ratio rack:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-or-rs3.247001/page-2#post-2491675
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/sick-s3.241623/#post-2427473
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Yes steering lacks feedback, and with S3 progressive steering taking a corner can go from light to heavy mid corner if you change force on the wheel or rate of turn significantly mid corner.
I am sure the steering is reacting to your movement rather than behaving oddly/badly but once you get used to it I actually quite like it, but I might be in a minority here.
That said I find dynamic steering a little jerky but in comfort settings it's absolutely fine especially if you leave throttle response in dynamic...IMHO
I am sure the steering is reacting to your movement rather than behaving oddly/badly but once you get used to it I actually quite like it, but I might be in a minority here.
That said I find dynamic steering a little jerky but in comfort settings it's absolutely fine especially if you leave throttle response in dynamic...IMHO
I was genuinely looking forward to the much-touted improved steering on the new A4.
Seems Audi had other ideas.
Seems Audi had other ideas.
Never really understood the whole steering complaints thing. Wheel turns, car goes.
'Not getting any feedback through the wheel' What does that even mean.
This isn't any sort of rant, I'm actually curious. What should it feel like ? Handling etc I get but I've never given any thought to steering (As long as it works) ever
'Not getting any feedback through the wheel' What does that even mean.
This isn't any sort of rant, I'm actually curious. What should it feel like ? Handling etc I get but I've never given any thought to steering (As long as it works) ever
This isn't any sort of rant, I'm actually curious. What should it feel like ? Handling etc I get but I've never given any thought to steering (As long as it works) ever
There are so many things you should be able to "feel" through the steering system, and a good system will give you feedback on lots of things.
I can tell when one tyre is under inflated compared to the other, on a car with good steering feedback. On the Audi, no.
I can tell when the road surface changes on a car with good steering feedback. One the Audi, no.
I can tell when the front of the car is approaching the limits of grip
I can tell when the front to the car has overcome the limits of grip - and here's the important thing - just how much to back off to regain that grip. With the Audi, you only know through other senses (sight, sounds, bum feel) and then, too late, the steering goes light.
I can tell when the car is going light through dips and crests as it happens on a car with good steering feedback. On the Audi, again, the other senses tell you first, then you realise the steering has gone light.
On a car that has entered understeer or oversteer - the counter steering needed is gauged on a good car, by the slip angle and how much grip the fronts have. On the Audi, again, the other senses tell you first, and you end up trying to correct something that has happened in the past.
Around a bend - with a car with good feedback, you can tell exactly what the tyres are doing, how much grip they have, how much more they have, when they are approaching the limit etc. On the Audi - it's pretty blunt, with virtually no feedback of that sort.
Some cars you get in, and you feel that the steering is directly connected to the front wheels. On the Audi - it feels like it has gone through multiple rubber bushes, there is no direct connection, nor direct precision to the steering.
All this before even starting to talk about turn-in characteristics.
I like a car that you can drive just as fast at night, as you can in the daytime. As your sight is deprived at night, that's one less sense you have, and on a car with good communicative steering, you can indeed drive at night without being disadvantaged. Try an unlit twisty narrow B road at night, and you'll soon find that you're lacking a degree of precision, or feedback, as to what the car is actually doing under your feet.
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Cheers got it , turns out I have considered some of those things without really thinking about it. I guess I thought there was some magical feel I was missing or something
I wrote this back in April re EPAS and Hydraulic. It will go some way to explaining why many modern cars are devoid of much feedback from the steering system.
Re Hydraulic vs EPAS
There are fundemental differences between hydraulic and EPAS, 2 big areas are friction (a lot more friction in EPAS than hydraulic, more moving parts), and inertia.
These 2 things can be overcome to match a hydraulic system by good calibration & programming of the EPAS system, but this is the exception, rather than the norm.
The inherent inertia of an EPAS system is responsible for the "lack of feel" and "accuracy" and "feedback" so often levied at EPAS, (you have to slow down a motor and reverse it, speed it up again, imagine the quick steering and counter steering required going around a bend on the limit) - again, with good design and calibration/programming, you can get EPAS to emulate a good hydraulic system - again, this is the exception rather than the norm.
And then we come to road feel, what the surface is like, feedback for grip etc. Because the EPAS motor is now compensating for the additional friction inherent in the system, filtering is now involved. And it is this that can also filter out the wanted sensations.
With a hydraulic system you're just opening valves to let pressurised fluid pass - a lot more instantaneous, less friction and less inertia involved - and no filtering.
It can be done (getting EPAS up to the standard of Hydraulic) - but requires considerable effort on the part of the manufacturer, sadly for most mass market cars little time is spent doing this. Porsche is a notable exception.
In addition - with mass market models, very often the initial calibration is done on one model, with very little time afforded to variations of that model (different wheels, different tyres etc.) - so you end up with the EPAS calibration being optimised for one specific model in the range, which doesn't necessarily suit the variants.
from:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-a3-ride-handling-honest-opinions.240977/page-3#post-2423684
Re Hydraulic vs EPAS
There are fundemental differences between hydraulic and EPAS, 2 big areas are friction (a lot more friction in EPAS than hydraulic, more moving parts), and inertia.
These 2 things can be overcome to match a hydraulic system by good calibration & programming of the EPAS system, but this is the exception, rather than the norm.
The inherent inertia of an EPAS system is responsible for the "lack of feel" and "accuracy" and "feedback" so often levied at EPAS, (you have to slow down a motor and reverse it, speed it up again, imagine the quick steering and counter steering required going around a bend on the limit) - again, with good design and calibration/programming, you can get EPAS to emulate a good hydraulic system - again, this is the exception rather than the norm.
And then we come to road feel, what the surface is like, feedback for grip etc. Because the EPAS motor is now compensating for the additional friction inherent in the system, filtering is now involved. And it is this that can also filter out the wanted sensations.
With a hydraulic system you're just opening valves to let pressurised fluid pass - a lot more instantaneous, less friction and less inertia involved - and no filtering.
It can be done (getting EPAS up to the standard of Hydraulic) - but requires considerable effort on the part of the manufacturer, sadly for most mass market cars little time is spent doing this. Porsche is a notable exception.
In addition - with mass market models, very often the initial calibration is done on one model, with very little time afforded to variations of that model (different wheels, different tyres etc.) - so you end up with the EPAS calibration being optimised for one specific model in the range, which doesn't necessarily suit the variants.
from:
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/s3-a3-ride-handling-honest-opinions.240977/page-3#post-2423684
Can relate to all that, from my younger days. Clearly its me not pushing the car enough, although my missus wouldn't agree at all.
Ford have had epas on the fiesta for years and no-one has complained about lack of steering feel in those cars, the st being praised for the amount of feedback it gives. So the system can be made to work...
I'll concede that the steering in my S3 doesn't feel quite as good as my old MK2 TT but I've never felt it change resistance mid corner and I regularly switch between steering modes depending how I feel. I've settled on Auto for normal use and Dynamic for nipping on. I used to like comfort mode but now feel it's too light.
I can honestly say the steering doesn't bother me at all, I've just adapted to its feel.
I can honestly say the steering doesn't bother me at all, I've just adapted to its feel.
G-S3
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I think the steering is good on the S3. Might not have the last details in feel like an M3 but it's far from rubbish. Also haven't noticed any changes mid corner. I think some people just like moaning! Really that worried about 'feel' buy an A3 turbo diesel for the daily drive and an Ariel Atom for the weekends.
No, I don't like moaning, but if you think the steering on your S3 is 'good', I'm getting a good understanding of your experience.
Your final sentence would appear to sum up your experience of reality as well.
Your final sentence would appear to sum up your experience of reality as well.
Dynamic is a hateful setting. Initially when I got the S3 I preferred it as I like a heavy "feel". That weight is caused by artificial resistance but I preferred it to comfort.
But the more I got to know and understand the cars limits I found one major flaw with the setting. Drive along a road at spirited speeds you adjust your inputs to the resistance of the wheel. You then come to a sharp bend say which requires you to scrub significant speed and then your inputs become too much because the variable system has detected a slow bend and makes the steering much lighter / easier. It becomes inconsistent which takes away some of the pleasure from the car.
I have now found the Auto setting to actually be a nice compromise. It deals with the above example much better.
The new TTS / RS3 suffers from the same issue too. Only Audi's I have driven that don't demonstrate it are the RS6 and the old R8.
But the more I got to know and understand the cars limits I found one major flaw with the setting. Drive along a road at spirited speeds you adjust your inputs to the resistance of the wheel. You then come to a sharp bend say which requires you to scrub significant speed and then your inputs become too much because the variable system has detected a slow bend and makes the steering much lighter / easier. It becomes inconsistent which takes away some of the pleasure from the car.
I have now found the Auto setting to actually be a nice compromise. It deals with the above example much better.
The new TTS / RS3 suffers from the same issue too. Only Audi's I have driven that don't demonstrate it are the RS6 and the old R8.
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No. You detect reality. That you may like the steering in your S3 is perfectly fine, as it is with Halegavin.
It is not, however, 'good'. It's actually sh*t.
It is a step backwards from the 8P, which was never great to begin with but at least you could detect the onset of loss of grip, through understeer slide through to AWD slide and be able to judge the steering inputs to recovery.
Like driving a circuit through an Xbox.
It is not, however, 'good'. It's actually sh*t.
It is a step backwards from the 8P, which was never great to begin with but at least you could detect the onset of loss of grip, through understeer slide through to AWD slide and be able to judge the steering inputs to recovery.
Like driving a circuit through an Xbox.
I don't own an S3 presently. I own an 8P A3, which is utter trash in terms of feedback*, but then are most of the other cars of today.... 3 Series F30 I drove the other week was just as awful, same goes for Golf R, Mercedes A Class, etc etc, list goes on...
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Lol golf r horrible to drive haaaa. I own one. Its handling is tremendous on the twisty winding B roads. You couldn't have driven it properly. Well aware the s3 8v isn't as good handling wise but it's not stopping me ordering one
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I'm not gonna get into a fight with anyone here about the steering feel, some like it others don't ..........big deal, nothing new there.
I will say however that if you need your steering to tell you when your losing grip your driving too bleedin fast!! Slow down, enjoy the ride
You're confusing handling with steering feel. And 'feel' in general.
The 8VS3 handles well, way better than the 8P (usual 'bouncyness' on a 'B' road as you up the pace in both) but it steers soullessly.
There is nothing coming back through the big round thing that you hold onto to encourage further, or lesser inputs from your feet.
I'm not moaning for the sake of it, it's just bad.
Well, my personal opinion...after many years and miles on sportsbikes I can tell you there's much more ways to get a feel for grip and speed, if you rely on steering so much when you're pushing it you're missing so much other feedback.
I'm not gonna get into a fight with anyone here about the steering feel, some like it others don't ..........big deal, nothing new there.
I will say however that if you need your steering to tell you when your losing grip your driving too bleedin fast!! Slow down, enjoy the ride
Firstly, thanks for the good natured comment, and to an extent I agree. But.
It's important to me to know the adhesive limits of my car (for argument's sake, let's say on a track, but knowing them can only help on a road) and importantly, what happens after those limits have been exceeded?
I'm three steps behind reacting if I'm suddenly looking forward out of a side window. Steering feel would have had me making different inputs to avoid this.
I'm not being arsey, it's just how it is.
Yes, it's one of many senses available.
However, the S3 steering, compared to say the Fiesta ST is a particular letdown.
Other manufacturers seem to be able to get it right for a car with aspiring performance and sportiness, it's a downright shame it's not a positive feature in the majority of Audi's.
It all leads back to the S3 being a family hatch with a big engine. Let down by the suspension and steering. Nothing more.
However, the S3 steering, compared to say the Fiesta ST is a particular letdown.
Other manufacturers seem to be able to get it right for a car with aspiring performance and sportiness, it's a downright shame it's not a positive feature in the majority of Audi's.
It all leads back to the S3 being a family hatch with a big engine. Let down by the suspension and steering. Nothing more.
My mistake, I meant to say feel, the feedback is poor indeed. I found it on the many test drives I had with the S3 which didn't leave me feeling much about the car after. Nontheless it ticks the box for me in virtually every other department so despite this I've ordered one.
No, I'm not.
I'm missing one of the vital input ingredients. Like one of the five senses. If you don't get that, well....
Some would disagree with your interpretation of the S3 handling "well".
Without magnetic ride, it's poor. With it, it appears to be improved, but there are far better alternatives in the handling stakes out there.
Now I'm not going to make any judgements on reality or experience, I shall leave that to others.....
I understand what you mean, I just don't understand why it holds you back or affects your enjoyment so much. I think you should give it a bit more time as its obviously different to your last car.
I get that some folk don't like the steering, that's fair enough but others can work with it and there's probably plenty that don't really care as long as it goes round a corner, I say give it more time or cut your losses.
Oh, I'm in for the journey. I've bought it to own at the end of the contract. I'll have a remap in a year, sort the handling for not too much and evolve into the car; drive round it's flaws. (Maybe there'll be a 'fix' for the steering in the future. REALITY CHECK: there won't!)
It's a great place to sit. Engine has potential. Looker, in my eyes in Missano and suits all of my needs.
I'll manage. (and remain frustrated at what could have been)
In the many videos I've seen of the S3 getting spanked round tracks vs various other cars there's certainly been grumbles about the lack of feel but I don't recall any decent tester saying they'd get a better lap time if it wasn't for the steering, it's been more about the perceived fun factor. I don't think it affects its ability but you might not gel with it and that sucks.
What can I say other than it's a well known Audi trait.
What can I say other than it's a well known Audi trait.
Hey, I can only handle one fight at a time.....
Steering AND Handling.***!
I'm a newbie to this part of the forum, gimme some time to settle in.
