My new C5 S6 Avant - V8 family car

and back on





i still had the cambelt tool kit i bought for the A4 and most of the tools did fit this too








and there we are all timed up








so left it like that as checked the clock and was 11.30pm





just before i went i gave the viscous a last bash in the vice with an old belt locking it off





and success, foot on the bench and it finally cracked. looks like it was locktighted on





then had to cycle home at midnight. i live right out on the countryside and it was blacker than black out there tonight

lol yea they're from the bloke that did the cambelt before me. did double check them

Another cycle ride down there this morning





i'd been using Jordans timing marks so far and i just wanted to double check it all for piece of mind, the locking tool from my 3.0 wasn't quite the same the threads were smaller, but the sholder did fit in if you held it just about





once i was happy it was 100% timed up, which it was, i could fit some of the mounts back on, 1000 times easier with the viscous off



then a few minutes trying to work out how the longest aux belt in the world runs



and could get it back together



front pannel back on a fill up with fresh G13



Last time i saw Jordan he gave me some phillips bulbs for the xenons so i thought i'd fit those while the headlights were out



new on the left



and in



then i could start putting back together



went to put the bumper on but the horse shoe clip for the headlight washer jet pipes has gone missing.......



searched everywhere, spent ****** ages, but no joy, and its just an open pipe so wouldnt be able to put any washer fluid in it, had to resort to cutting it off and bunging it up, then unplugged the motor too. will bet another one sorted sometime



so could get the bumper back on



And all finished





purrs sweet as a kitten, and so far no leaks

Well well what a day! started off early for an airport run as the mother in law was going home to Florida



250 mile round trip, its it first long trip and with it being door to door motorway journey it would be a pretty good test on what it will do on a run. all I'd been doing so far is shunting around and it had been returning 12mpg over a tank (actual), which i was happy with. it shows 15-16mpg on the trip computer so it actually does about 20% less than the trip shows when on lpg.
I've not yet used a whole tank to work out actual mpg, but the trip computer is showing 25mpg over 200 miles so far, so at a -20% guestimate that should be 20ish mpg, bank on what i was hoping for. will take that at 55p/litre

then things went a bit south......

we went to lakeside on the way back for a bit of towie spotting and after we left i had an engine management light pop up, i had my phone Bluetooth dongle so plugged in and came up with this



quick google said it was the vvt not being in sync with the exhaust and inlet cam. some said dirty oil sometimes causes it, more commonly its the chain sliders wear and crack. usually starts as a rattle on startup then gets worse and worse then they break. I didnt know these even had vvt, but turns out they do, the chain guides move up and down to make the bottom run of the chain shorter between the two cams, changing the timing. those who dont know, the front cambelt only runs the exhaust cams, a chain at the back runs the inlet off the exhaust cam, like most 5v vags.

engine was still running spot on, no rattleing or anything else apart from the light. so carried on home, stopped at the unit to pick up my bike i'd left there yesterday, all fine, got home got changed and was going to pop to my dads down the road to use his vagcom to see if i could get a more indepth report of fault code. started it up and sounded like a tractor, turned it off, started again and the same so turned it straight off. ****!

there wasnt alot i could do but investigate, the drivers side cam cover is pretty easy to remove so whipped that off on the driveway.





and sure enough what do i find, a broken chain guide chewed up in the sprokets





looks like its the bottom one as the top was cracked, but still in place.

i phoned up audi for a price on new chain guides and they said you cant buy them seperate, only with the VVT unit..... £419+VAT trade price!! WTF!

Looked on ebay and you can get just the siders for about 20quid. but not convinced on the quality as no makes are given.

as it was the lower chain guide that had lost a chunk i had to get the vvt unit out, needed a looking tool to compress the trensioner to get the chain off, stuck at home i was limited to what i could find, but managed it with a bit of studing




and got the inlet cam out. the exhaust is still timed up perfectly with the rest of the engine.



then got the vvt chain tensioner unit out and thats when things got worrying. the whole lower guide was missing at the chain had run on the bare metal. hence the horendous noise on the last start up.



and it had spun it a bit too.

this was very very worying for me at this point as that would have dramatically changed the timing on the inlet compared to the crank! if it advanced or retarded it either way too much then valve to piston comtact means ducked head.

by this time it was dark, ****** driveway!



the engine still turns over by hand ok, no snags or getting stuck, i can't really do a compression test as the inlet cam is out and the chains still over the exhaust cam.
I dont know why this has happened so suddenly. it did 250+ miles with 3-4 stops and starts, then dies on the next start up. All i can think is that they were already cracked and with the turning of the cams lining up the cambelt yesterday it dislodged it a bit. its a good job there's such a thing as bad luck or I'd have no luck at all!

more worringly i can only find half the pieces of old guide. these should both be the same



going to get it towed down the unit tomorrow and assess the situation and try and get a compression test done. bent valves really is a 50/50 at this point.

i did recheck the cambelt end and all the timing marks are spot on that end.

Got my dad to tow me down to the unit today as id had enough of driveway mechanics. he said his 115bhp passat struggled a bit with the 1800+kg S6 behind it :lol:

ahhhhh back in the unit



tools still out from the other day



and a boot full of bits..... and the transport home



i wanted to try and do a compression test by putting the piston to bdc and connecting the pressure gauge and turning it over to see if it would get one pump before the exhaust valve opened to give a reading, but couldn't because the chain would flail around and lock up, so far ive been able to get to all the bolts with a socket and rachet easily, all except this one. not bad going



but when i took the cap off i still cant get the chain off



i tried rotating it by hand but the air escapes past the rings before i get a cycle lol



so all i'm left able to do is get a new tensioner set and fit then give it a try, even if it is all ****ed and i need a new head i still would renew the chain guides anyway.

With progress haulted that end i thought id drop the sump and see if i could find the rest of the tensioner in the sump. i drained the oil out into a bag to use again





whipped out the 500 bolts and the pan came down





there was a bit of a wierd metallic colour in the oil left over, not swarfy, just sparkley. i'm not sure if its the oil itself or the shavings from the cam chain guides.





The oil is only a couple of thousand miles old, but there is a lip around the sump plug so you never actually drain all the oil, the sludge is left in the pan, so could be years old



cleaned the sump compleatly out ready for refitting when ready





the hunt for chain guide pieces wasnt that successfull

only the 6 little pieces at the bottom were in the sump, so seems we're still quite a bit short



whilst under the car though i noticed some coolant dripping coming from the front, you can see a few drips about to come off the left hand corner of the sump lip in this pic



took the alternator out so i could get my head up there and it looks like its coming from that same front area it was before dripping off the bottom of that thermostat water pipe. i'm confident its not coming from the thermostat seal, so there could be a pinhole or something in that water pipe, or elsewhere alltogether. needless to say the whole front end and cambelt need to come off again



at this point two of the big torx bolts that go into the end of the chassis legs rounded off and i knew it was time for down tools and go home before i set fire to it.


Tasks now are to make a decision on what vvt tensioner to get, TPS trade price is £419+VAT!! ive seen a guy on ebay doing genuine ones new in the box for £215 delivered, or there are alot of pattern ones for around £60. its quite a difference. if anyone knows of any repeatable suppliers let me know.

also i need to find all the torque settings, and chain timings for these engines, Autodata only go as far as the rocker covers, and haynes dont do a manual for the A6, let alone the V8 engine. I've been told bentley had it all, but not easy to get :/

Back to work tomorrow so time to cool off a bit from the car!

Thanks for the replies, it really does suck big time! in both time and effort, but mostly expense

I've spent the day looking at it more and the genuine ones i found on ebay at £215 are actually for the 20v 4cyl engines. they look exactly the same but the part numbers are everso slightly different, 20v - 058 109 088 vs 40v - 077 109 088. (well 088 is bank 2, 087 is bank 1). so it looks like i can only use ones from 4.2, the guides themselves are the same but there must be something different in the tensioners. and you cant get genuine guides on their own

which leaves me with either some unbranded ebay ones for £100odd, or genuine main dealer one for £500, a weeks wages

unless anyone can give me any other info on reputable ones, or somewhere else for a genuine one elsewhere than trade on TPS looks like i'm going to have to bite the bullet.

Also i've had no luck getting the Torque setting for the cams and bits as of yet, don't really want to pay £100 for a bentley manual and use it for a few numbers! i havn't go elsawin either. i've got Autodata but theres not much in there for this engine inside.

I didn't know that oil baffle came off separately to the oil pump, if it does i'll give it a go as the sumps not back on yet (i suppose thats something else i could of looked up in the bentley manual!)

great info, I'll get back under there tomorrow and drop that baffle waffle out to see if anything else falls out.

p.m. coming regarding numbers

just got off the phone to TPS for some proper prices, £405+vat for the tensioner, £51+vat for a chain, £19+vat each cam seal.

****!

Cheers mate. i've just spent 700quid on parts so i guess £9.99 isnt going hurt too much lol

Right, a plan has been hatched. There was just too much uncertainty on the ebay tensions, some people had good experiences, some had bad. I've spent alot of time looking into it and noone could give a definate answer on a credible supplier, so with that doubt i had no choice but to go Genuine TPS. i only want to do this once so i got the tensioner, chain, 2x cam seals and a tensioner gasket, on trade = £700. yes seven-****ing-hundred! and thats just one head.

I still dont know 100% that my inlet valves are ok. the problem I've had seems very common (although I'd never heard of it) and most have been run for a while with no guides, proper rogered tensioner and still been ok. there has been a couple of threads where bent valves have happened but seems quite rare (but you know how lucky i seem to be lately )

the plan of action is to leave the engine all intact, cambelt wise and oil wise, so when i get the new tensioner i can slot it in, with the old chain still on the exhaust cam, and time it up with the inlet cam refitted, then do a proper comression test on the engine, all 8 cylinders, and hopefully they will be ok.

If they are ok then i'll whip the cambelt off, cams out, fit the new tensioner, new chain, and new cam seals and time everything back in properly. i managed to find a second hand locking kit so thats on its way so will be able to time the cambelt in the dealer way. while the exhaust cam is out I'll be able to see better if any of the broken cam guide is down the oil return.

if the valves are dead then I'm going on holiday for a bit......

I found out from DGSdale (who has been very helpfull with the torque setting and procedures) that the baffle plate around the oil pump comes off easily, so whipped that off to look for any more valve guide





i could see right up to the back of the drain pan and felt up all round and no sign of any more pieces floating about there. i was going to clean the strainer while in here, but it was spotless, a credit to the previous owners and regular quality oil changes, the whole inside of the engine is clean really.



next was to drill out those ******* front panel bolts, i always have trouble with these being ****ing tight of all the A4s ive stripped too. i found out why when i got the heads out, they're striated of the back of the bolt head, and on the washers, so they lock on



once the heads were off the threads were only finger tight, not even stiff.



stuck the long bolts back in



and folded the front back off



This isnt needed to do the chain, but im still chasing that water leak

at least the viscous came off nice and easy this time



and stripped out



to my supprise under the thermostat i had just replaced was completely dry but it was still coming out the bottom of the alternator, quite alot! when i looked closer the alternator bracket is actually oil cooler and oil filter housing all built into one



and covered in new coolant





and i actually found the leak, its still leaking as the blocks still full of water as the thermostat is closed. its the join between the block waterway and this oil cooler



i'm sure its coming from the '13' link pipe on the right hand side, probably the o-rings '12'



i just hope to god i can get this out without having to drop the engine! its a heffing great unit and its right against the chassis leg.



i've left it on for now as i want to keep the oil system complete to do the compression test and not fill all the bearing up with air.

one thing i did want to check was the passenger side tensioner, in every thread ive read its always been bank 1 that fails for some reason and rarely bank2. but wanted to check it



it looks as good a new, no cracks and not alot of ware





when i take the cambelt off i think i will remove this side too just to be sure and check the lower guide, but it looks ok, thank ****.

the new bits should be in tomorrow and i can see what my money gets me...

well picked them up today






I'm on my last night shift tonight so will start getting some answers tomorrow.

Finished a night shift and headed down there again for a bit of audi-ness



i picked up a second hand locking kit cheap



was supposed to come with the crank tool too, but didnt >:-( but fitted the bar anyway



the plan is to fit the tensioner and inlet cam back in as it is, so i can check the compression while its all still all timed up



and all timed up, the book states 16 links between marks but the general internet consensus is its actually 15.5 links, which it is



couple of rotations by hand and all lines up spot on, i put the old oil back in and the rocker covers back on and connected the battery back up, got the compression tester back on,



a big fingers crossed and turned it over.........................................









an impressive 15+bar accross the board thank god for that the valves are ok, the engine is ok

so all the cams can get back in, new chain and seals. first of all i wanted to get to the oilcooler mount off so i could see what was actually leaking coolant. and get the seals on order, then crack on with the top end again.

oil back out again



and that pipe is still leaking



i found the only bit that was holding the front panel on the drivers side was an aircon pipe, a the system was empty again, must have a leak somewhere, i undid that and could swing it around for better access to that bottom mount



this black hard pipe was in there solid, i couldn't move it out



took the oil filter off to get better access, its ****** huge!



and found a little tab under the manifold holding the hard water pipe in

started trying to get the oil cooler/filter mount off but was struggleing with the one under the exhaust manifiold. i know you need to to take the engine out to get the manifolds off so had to try with some universal joints



but i couldn't get on to the bolts. i stripped out the cambelt backing plate, thermostat and all the water pipes to try for better access



glad to see the thermostat wasn't leaking at all



found this little (big) stowaway here too



and then with a better view it dawned on me, this alternator mount i originally thought was a easy removal, then turned out to be the housing for the oil cooler and oil filter too....... turns out its ALSO THE ENGINE MOUNT!!! You've got to be kidding me??



so basically the engines got to come out :doh: my dads borrowing my engine crane this weekend so had to improvise with holding the engine, i fitted the stabilizer back on the front of the engine, and propped it up



dropped the front anti roll bar and the driverside front subframe



and after alot of swearing and ****ing about i finally got the lump off! had to jack the engine up and down in all different positions to get to the bolts, god knows how i'm going to get it back in. alternator mount/oil filter housing/oil cooler housing/engine mount mofo!





and the culpruit for the leak, this pipe here. the oil pipes behind it butt flat against the housing, not leaks no problem, but the coolant has this stumpy plastic pipe between it, asking for trouble





Also while the cams were out i went fishing for more cam guides and found some more big bits



and i'm pretty sure i have just about it all now, which is a relief



so i'm a bit stuck now as i cant do anything untill i get a new seal set for the oil cooler filter bla bla housing



its the '12's o-rings and '13' pipe i need, will have to phone around and see how easy thats going to be in the morning



boy have i got alot of stuff to put back together!!



but i'm stuck now until i find seals as that mount is the very first thing that's got to go in

With the o-rings and pipe not here till tomorrow i was kind of stuck as thats the very first thing to go on.

i got my Elsawin through today.



had a little play with it its deffo £9.99 well spent, its basically a haynes manual on steroids x10! got some great info in it

headed down the unit again and the obligatory start shot



first thing i wanted to check was the passenger side tensioner was ok. just for piece of mind. its all different this side, cam chain at the front behind the cambelt



tensioner tool back on and could release the inlet cam



and out, it takes alot of wiggling and trying




tensioner is fine thank god! couldnt handle another 500quid one!



it only worn half as much as the side that broke which is strange



and back together





onto the drivers side with all my new bits



bare head



set the exhaust cam (this is why i needed that bar)



and all in,

well nearly, the torque setting is 5nm + 90degrees, 3 of the bolts didnt feel quite right when doing the 90degree turn. they were tight but didnt quite feel right.


i went home and had tea then popped and got a helicoil kit as i wasnt happy with those 3 bolts





and masked up the area i needed to work on, i decided to do all the bolts on the cam caps effected as no doubt one more turn will finish the others off too





drilled them with the 6.3mm drill bil supplied and tapped them out, all with a hoover sucking the swarf up





oversided thread





in goes the helicoil





and wallahh, super strong m6 steel thread, better than new








i was right to remove them as one did come out with a little friend.





and all back together, torqued up perfect





the audi parts will be with them 8.45am tomorrow, so I'll be there at 8.46am

So first thing today i went and got the seals and pipe for the oil cooler



stripped and cleaned the oilcooler



that'll be why it was leaking then :doh:



all back together



and on



engine mount and subframe back up with the anti roll bar



and the engines back in on its own steam



could then start to refit bits, backing plates, thermostat, alternator



had to compress the cambelt tensioner again, boy is this thing tough!



could then lay the cambelt back on



i had a bit of a problem now, the cam locking bar was supposed to come with the crank locking pin too, but they forgot :doh: they sent it first class but alas it didnt arrive today but i wasnt going to let that stop progress, so i went old school to find the true TDC



and found the sweet spot



i dont usually trust the timing marks on the plastic cambelt covers and the bottom oulley, theres too many ways they can fit, mm's out. but in this case it was spot on!

added my own tdc mark for ease.



now you lock the exhaust cams using the bar, but the cam pulleys are free to spin, no keyway. this allows the cambelt to tension between the cams. if you just lock the cams solid there is a set distance between the two pulleys and the water pump, and this may not be to an exact tooth on the cambelt, you compromise to the closest tooth. Also as the belt gets old and stretches the cams actually come out of time slightly. once the cambelt is tensioned you do up the cam pulley centre bolt and that locks the pulley to the cam on a taper.



gave it a few rotations by hand and re checked the timing marks id made. theres just so many!!

with that all good i could crack on





i couldnt resist stick the petrol bits on and give it a try, started with a good prime, then fired straight up





more bits in and i could bleed the collant system up





front panel on and lights in





bumpers and splashguards





got all the lpg stuff back in properly





and hidden away





and done!





all working





and all finished, with no spare parts either





although a few casualties





and with a 1am finish, its back





it might look a quick update, but i was down there 15 hours today!!!

So to carry on this, gave it a good clean and bling up, gave my mum's passat i'd been borrowing a spruce up too puts the wheel size in to perspective in this pic!



There was a little missfire on bank 1, the right hand exhaust pipe was a bit more farty than the left. i had heard from other threads that the new hydraullic tensioners can take a little bit to bleed through and fully extend. but it didn't stop, i wasn't getting any engine lights bit it was slightly missing on one side for sure. still ran ok.

but thankfully bone dry under there



plugged my phone into it and got



hmmmm, so vagcom'd it and got





hmmm, suggesting the timing is out (although i was certain it wasnt!)


luckily you can fit the cam bar on without taking the front end off, and as i thought it, i lined up the crank and the bar slid straight on, cambelts all perfect,



which only left the chains to be out slightly. luckily its on the drivers side so its only a case of whipping off the airbox and camcover off that side, didnt even jack it up. the exhaust was spot on in the centre but the inlet was just on its limit (the pointer has to be inbetween the notch)



Something i'd come accross on google when people had done a full rebuild before and got these codes come up was they'd got the tensioners mixed up side to side, drivers and passengers. they look identical, almost the same casting, but inside one side the plunger pushes up and the other side pushes down (as the chains pull different ways on). i knew i couldn't of mixed them up as i only had one off at the time....... but checked the part number and the new one is infact a bank 2 passenger side one :doh: so where it should be advancing the timing, its retarding it :doh:

the first time i tried taking the cams out it took me ******* ages! but with all the practice i can get the cam out in just a few minutes now!



and the old and new tensioners





you can see why i didnt notice :doh: so partly my fault for not double checking the part number and partly their fault for supplying a bank 2 tensioner instead of a bank 1 one.

went down to TPS this morning and unfortunately there's only a skeleton staff of phone operators in there on a Saturday, no managers or authority. he did say vw/audi wont take the part back as its been fitted and run. so will have to see what the managers say Monday...... ******, could be expensive!

Thanks. the knowlage and challenge bit i thrive on, the more **** gets thrown at you the stronger you come out the other side. Finding out the timing was all spot on after suspecting it is a real booster, knowing i was right.

The biggest hurt for me is anything to do with money! i hate spending it and the thought of having to spend out another £500 is haunting me big time. The first 500 was money i didn't realy have spare and a second lot certainly isn't! i will find out tomorrow what the score is with TPS.

As i pretty much knew they would, TPS said sorry there's nothing they can do. They weren't dicks about it but said that's the way it is, as soon as its fitted to the vechicle the cant send it back to volkswagon/audi, and even if they did they'd just send it back.

Its my fault really, they do look identical, but you should aways check the part number! They did me the fullest trade price they could and got it down to £450, but it still hurts ALOT so my bill from TPS the past month is running £1200+

taking me almost into this bracket

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Brand-New...b-Landrover-/252055717586?hash=item3aafb106d2



a brand spanking new crate motor! A proper S6 one with the bigger inlet and cams too! even you added up the price for the coil packs and all the sensors, you'd be on for that breaking it! oh and the 2 x £500 chain tensioners

So anyway i ordered the correct side chain tensioner and will be here in the morning. hopefully that will be the end of that then!

Challenges don't get to me at all, the better the achievement when you accomplish them, but i hate spending money

so another £500 later!



and you can obviously see why i made the mistake







so banged it back in. 15.5 links



turned a couple of rotations by hand and the bar slotted back in and the pointers dead centre on the inlet



and put it back together





Driven home and all seems ok so far :thumb:

Better news today. 80 miles done with the new tensioner in and it runs spot on, checked in vagcom and the cams and crank are perfectly in sync As the sump had been on and off and on and off i hadn't fitted a new liquid gasket, just used some halfords silicone untill i knew it didn't have to come off again. The slicone had been seeping a bit anyway



so dropped the oil again, i think this oil has been in and out 4 times now :lol:



dropped the sump again



i noticed something in the bottom, yet more cam chain guide! i must have been in the oil return somewhere



the bottom bits, i think that's defiantly it now :lol:



with all the bits that had been floating about, and the new tensioner guides bedding in, i thought it best to do and oil and filter change too, bit of a shame as it was only done a few thousand miles ago. Halfords came up trumps on the oil, £23 a can with the trade card



cleaned all the sump up again spotless



and back on with the proper VAG sealant



I didn't want to put the new oil in untill it dried so i did something else that had been bugging me. All the chrome i painted black was stonechipped up to ****!



I think vinyl or something would be better, but for now i just repainted them

sanded down again



wasnt going to take off the bumper, so just taped the headlight chromes off







also while it was up in the air i gave the insde of the wheels and the calipers a clean up

When i got the car the car the paintwork was atrousious, i machine poilished it back pretty well but the bonnet and roof have all sucked in again and dulled off.



So this time i flatted it all down with 2000 wet and dry paper untill smooth. some people call it colour sanding









and started buffing





i cut the rest of the car aswell as it had some marks here and there



and the results some reflection fun







by this time it was getting dark so had to give it an indoors wash off



and much happier with the results now. its not perfect, but you'd never be able to tell how it was origionally





There a big german car show my friends are in charge of on tomorrow locally so might go along to that as its all blinging again

its at stonham barns, off the A12, so not a million miles away