S3 - Understeering in wet

Ignition1 said:
:D Let me know how you get on with Audi on that.

"Hi - can I test drive an S3 with mag ride? I wanted to throw it round corners at speed to see if it understeers?"
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Don't see why not - It was more or less what I asked for when I borrowed the RS3 for the weekend (adding I want to see what launch control is all about):friendly wink:.
 
0B1001001 said:
And for my next trick, I've learnt how to suck eggs... just kidding :D

I have an excellent understanding of understeer (what with all the practice I get now...); it's not a difficult concept.

And as @veeeight says, I'm talking relative, not absolute, grip.
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Apologies if I am trying to teach an old dog new tricks. I'm sure plenty of you are pretty hot drivers - young and old.

I'd say 70% of it will be tyre related and the rest just due to having a AWD car that pushes the car through corners a bit more and/or having 300bhp on tap.

Without driving my one in the wet (or dry as it happens as I've yet to take ownership), I can almost guarantee that it's grip issues with the poor tyres. I never noticed any degree of understeer in the dry with the demo.... and I was giving it what for on the country roads.
 
Flatoot said:
Apologies if I am trying to teach an old dog new tricks. I'm sure plenty of you are pretty hot drivers - young and old.

I'd say 70% of it will be tyre related and the rest just due to having a AWD car that pushes the car through corners a bit more and/or having 300bhp on tap.

Without driving my one in the wet (or dry as it happens as I've yet to take ownership), I can almost guarantee that it's grip issues with the poor tyres. I never noticed any degree of understeer in the dry with the demo.... and I was giving it what for on the country roads.
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No problem - it's impossible to know what anyone knows on a forum!

Whilst not exactly the same tyres, we're talking Goodyear Eagle F1 AS2 225/45/17 on my Golf vs. Goodyear Eagle F1 AS2 225/40/18 on my S3... and in the dry on a smooth (oh, and flat) road, it grips like treacle!
 
0B1001001 said:
No problem - it's impossible to know what anyone knows on a forum!

Whilst not exactly the same tyres, we're talking Goodyear Eagle F1 AS2 225/45/17 on my Golf vs. Goodyear Eagle F1 AS2 225/40/18 on my S3... and in the dry on a smooth (oh, and flat) road, it grips like treacle!
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I've driven loads of cars that are magic in the dry but awful in the wet. Most of this can be put down to the tyres. A softer silica based tyre will undoubtedly grip better in slippier conditions (rain or snow).

Also, you have to take into account that the car setup is what it is.... you can't dial in to a 'wet mode' as much as this would be a good feature. For example, the most basic level of 4 wheel racing - karting - will see you change to deep tread/soft a margarine wet tyre, add on more camber/castor angle, wider track at the front end, and also loosed up the chassis where possible (through slackening off seat stays or changing to a more flexible rear axle. That's before you start thinking of how to adapt to the track conditions as taking a wider line through corners often sees less rubber and more grip.
You can't do any of that in a road car. You can't change your current tyres (within reason, unless you drive everywhere with a spare set in the boot), and you can't adjust your line.

I've yet to drive a road car that sticks to the road as well in the wet as it does in the dry. Some react better than others, and these tend to be the ones with a slightly higher profile tyre which offer more flexibilty and in turn, grip in the wet.

I'd be seriously surprised if, as some are suggesting, there is a setup or design flaw in the S3 that makes than a disaster in the wet. If you're determined to drive fast in the wet, then you'll have to compromise some grip in the dry and go for a softer tyre that won't last as long.

Anyway, that's my tuppence worth.
 
The S3 has poor grip and understeers in the dry easily too, relative to some other cars.

Watch the track video with Steve Sutcliffe in the RS3 around Llandau, it too suffers from the frustrating terminal Audi understeer (in the dry) - again there are other cars in that video with better set up geometry.



I also have a YouTube video on here in another thread demonstrating poor grip in the dry with the S3.

Yesterday, I was driving, back to back, a modded RS6 pushing out over 650PS (running road tyres), with my S3, around the same roads corners and roundabouts. Despite the RS6's added bulk and weight, it did not suffer the terminal understeer as displayed by the S3. And yes, I know I go on about this, but the humble Mercedes Citan diesel van held the corner better than my S3 yesterday.

The standard AO Conti CS5's are awful on the S3, but the Conti's have just come top in the evo magazine 2015 summer tyre test. Maybe they weren't testing the AO version, but I'd be surprised if there was that much difference. Maybe it's just the poor S3 setup that makes pairing it with the AO Conti's especially bad. The front end of the S3 is just not set up as you would want a hot or hyper or premium hatch to be.

I appreciate that production cars have a degree of understeer dialled in for safety, but it's ridiculous on the S3. It makes for a one-dimensional drive, all you end up doing is managing understeer and waiting for when you can nail it out of the corner.

Nice interior, and lovely in a straight line and on the autobahn though.
 
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veeeight said:
The S3 has poor grip and understeers in the dry easily too, relative to some other cars.

Watch the track video with Steve Sutcliffe in the RS3 around Llandau, it too suffers from the frustrating terminal Audi understeer (in the dry) - again there are other cars in that video with better set up geometry.



I also have a YouTube video on here in another thread demonstrating poor grip in the dry with the S3.

Yesterday, I was driving, back to back, a modded RS6 pushing out over 650PS (running road tyres), with my S3, around the same roads corners and roundabouts. Despite the RS6's added bulk and weight, it did not suffer the terminal understeer as displayed by the S3. And yes, I know I go on about this, but the humble Mercedes Citan diesel van held the corner better than my S3 yesterday.

The standard AO Conti CS5's are awful on the S3, but the Conti's have just come top in the evo magazine 2015 summer tyre test. Maybe they weren't testing the AO version, but I'd be surprised if there was that much difference. Maybe it's just the poor S3 setup that makes pairing it with the AO Conti's especially bad. The front end of the S3 is just not set up as you would want a hot or hyper or premium hatch to be.

I appreciate that production cars have a degree of understeer dialled in for safety, but it's ridiculous on the S3. It makes for a one-dimensional drive, all you end up doing is managing understeer and waiting for when you can nail it out of the corner.

Nice interior, and lovely in a straight line and on the autobahn though.
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Track tests are mostly rubbish and smack of misinformation. Take everything they say with a large pinch of salt. Real world driving is what 99.9% of us undertake on a daily basis, with potholes, grit, grime, tractors, pedestrians, cyclists etc etc.

As for your statement that the S3 is ridiculous, I can only assume you are driving the car in the wrong manner, as I had the S3 demo from my local dealer for 24 hours, and gave it absolute stink over the Scottish highland A and B roads. I never came across a situation where I thought, uh oh, massive understeer - heading for a heather clad ditch!

You can get pretty much any high performance car to understeer if you carry enough entry speed to a corner. It's the laws of physics and the forces that are having to be dealt with by the tyres that's the leveller. Simply slow your entry speed and then feed the power on gradually and equally as your mid and exiting the corner. It's not difficult and as I said, I never experienced this awful handling that some are saying the S3 is capable of. Quite the opposite in fact. It was bolted to the tarmac and I felt the active alterations of 4wd system compensating when traction/braking was required at opposite corners of the car.

If you think the S3 is only good in a straight line, then with all due respect, I confidently predict you need to assess your driving style :playful:

PS, no car manufacturer "designs in" understeer for safety reasons - it's inherent and a natural consequence of carrying too much speed into a corner. Controllable understeer is what you want your designers to be factoring in..... as in, the car can be brought back under control relatively easily. Far too many cars, when you have understeer and lift, the back end catches up with you.
 
Of course car manufacturers design in understeer for safety.
This has been going on for many years, if not decades.

1. It's more instinctive for a driver to lift off when under steering to bring it back into line, this is what the vast majority of the public would do when a car gets out of shape. Most (new) drivers would not know to steer in the opposite direction to counter an oversteer situation.

2. With the front crash safety and crumple zones, you have a better chance of sustaining less injuries going head on (understeer) than you have swiping sideways (oversteer) - safety.

All production cars have understeer inherently dialled into them. Even rear wheel drive production road cars.


And I wondered just how long it would take before the "you're driving it wrong" brigade arrived ;)

Let's see. You've had the S3 for 24 hours, I've lived with mine for 16 months, and you're in a better position to tell me about the handling characteristics of the S3? :lmfao:
 
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So car manufacturers' deliberately make a cars handling poor, to enhance safety? I'm glad you're not designing any car I'll be driving in the near future :culpability:

What they probably do do, is realise that understeer is a natural consequence of a cars weight on it's front tyres, versus the speed it is carrying into a corner, squared with the limitation of grip that can be obtained, both mechanically and non-mechanically (ie, from tyres) ... therefore, they don't pile on loads of engineering solutions to the front end which would ultimately make the back end skittish.
As I said, in an earlier thread - I don't mind a bit of understeer in my cars (or when I raced karts) as I know how to factor this in when approaching a corner.... I just add in a degree of more lock in my angle of steering to compensate.

As for the track test - well, a RWD car (such as the M135i), will always good round a track quicker/better as RWD drive cars are better than FWD cars in that sort of situation (hence the reason 100% of single seater race cars are RWD).

Not saying you're opinions on the S3 are not valid..... just not accurate. I only needed 24 hours to assess the level of performance of the S3 and I can confidently say, based on my 30 odd years of driving and being involved in various forms of motorsport, that it's a fully fettled, terrific all round car, that may not boast the quickest lap time on a track, but sure as hell whips most other similarly priced cars in it's range and price bracket.
 
You've magicked up a set of words of your own to say that "manufacturers make car handling poor to enhance safety." That is definitely not what I said nor implied. Please don't put words into my mouth.

And, the S3, unfortunately, has a poorer front end setup than many similarly priced, and lower priced, front wheel drive cars on the market today. The lack of a sharp turn in is one characteristic that springs to mind.

There are many many other owners and threads on here, that also describe the poor steering, handling and suspension of the S3 as standard. And the improvements to be had by fitting aftermarket components.

But for some people they can live with them, other factors (eg a nice interior) outweighs the flaws.

There are better setup cars for grip, handling and steering than the S3. The Fiesta ST springs to mind, as does the Golf R.

Is the S3 an all rounder? Yes.
Is it compromised in some areas? Yes.
Does it excel in other areas? Yes.
Are there better handling hot hatches out there? Yes.
 
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veeeight said:
Let's see. You've had the S3 for 24 hours, I've lived with mine for 16 months, and you're in a better position to tell me about the handling characteristics of the S3? :lmfao:
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Oh, and you posted a link to a Youtube video for which the boy will have driven the S3 for what - an hour tops? But his opinion is ok as he's a dude on the internet? Time driven in a car shouldn't matter - it's where you take that car, and as such, most reviews I've seen on the S3, saw in real world conditions, it rocks!
 
Flatoot said:
Oh, and you posted a link to a Youtube video for which the boy will have driven the S3 for what - an hour tops? But his opinion is ok as he's a dude on the internet? Time driven in a car shouldn't matter - it's where you take that car, and as such, most reviews I've seen on the S3, saw in real world conditions, it rocks!
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Steve is an ex-BTCC driver, or doesn't that count ;)

He is on a short handling circuit, endlessly repeatable conditions, back to back testing.
It's quite clear the RS3 cannot hold the same trajectory as the other cars, due to the characteristic Audi understeer.

And of course time in a car matters, or rather, mileage matters. I was seduced by the S3 over a weekend, and bought one. However with more miles under the belt, in all sorts of different road conditions, all the flaws and compromises have revealed themselves over the miles and different road conditions that you cannot possibly hope to cover in a weekend.
 
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veeeight said:
You've magicked up a set of words of your own to say that "manufacturers make car handling poor to enhance safety." That is definitely not what I said nor implied. Please don't put words into my mouth.

And, the S3, unfortunately, has a poorer front end setup than many similarly priced, and lower priced, front wheel drive cars on the market today. The lack of a sharp turn in is one characteristic that springs to mind.

There are many many other owners and threads on here, that also describe the poor steering, handling and suspension of the S3 as standard. And the improvements to be had by fitting aftermarket components.

But for some people they can live with them, other factors (eg a nice interior) outweighs the flaws.

There are better setup cars for grip, handling and steering than the S3. The Fiesta ST springs to mind, as does the Golf R.

Is the S3 an all rounder? Yes.
Is it compromised in some areas? Yes.
Does it excel in other areas? Yes.
Are there better handling hot hatches out there? Yes.
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What you said was that manufactures design in understeer to make them safer. But understeer is not safe. Full grip throughout a corner coming from all 4 wheels is safe. But that's not achievable. So they would rather leave the front end to understeer than sharpen it up and make the back end unpredictable. That's a whole different world away from actually designing a car to understeer. No one in their right mind would start from a blank design and say, "I want this car to understeer".

Sure, there may be cars that turn in quicker, hold the line better, for longer. But are you driving on the open roads, or are you taking your car round Silverstone on a daily basis?

But to come back to your original statement, you said the handling of the S3 was 'ridiculous'. I stand my by response in that I don't feel you know what you're talking about - with all due respect.

Stop buying into the nonsense that's spouted by these so called experts who test drive cars and throw them up on the web.
 
Flatoot said:
What you said was that manufactures design in understeer to make them safer. But understeer is not safe.
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Understeer is safer than oversteer (when first displayed mid corner) in the hands of your "average" driver. That is the premise of "designing in understeer" into modern cars. Making sure that the first response to this is to understeer. Even RWD BMW's understeer initially in these situations.

Push the throttle mid corner, and it is preferable for a car to understeer, than the back to whip around for the majority of drivers. Both in the sense of correcting it, and the consequences of how you hit an obstacle.


Sure, there may be cars that turn in quicker, hold the line better, for longer. But are you driving on the open roads, or are you taking your car round Silverstone on a daily basis?
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I am driving on the open roads daily, and is a continual frustration at every bend, corner and roundabout. Other people aren't bothered by this, but I am. Some S3 owners are happy with the level of grip offered to them, and never ever will discover the suspension foibles of the S3.


I stand my by response in that I don't feel you know what you're talking about - with all due respect.
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With all due respect, you said you "felt the active alterations of 4wd system compensating when traction/braking was required at opposite corners of the car."

This is rubbish. It's a Haldex system, you cannot possible feel the AWD doing anything during braking, as it complete dis-engages, and the S3 becomes a front wheel drive car. There is no AWD or 4WD activity in those situations.

Why do I use the word "ridiculous"? Because for a £40k hot/hyper hatch, I expect better handling and steering characteristics than what is offered out of the factory as standard. I do not expect to have spend more on aftermarket to "upgrade" components to make it behave as well as a lower priced Fiesta ST.


Again - if you don't like reviews and reviewers, there are many owners on here that report poor handling and suspension traits on the S3 - if you care to search.
 
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veeeight said:
Understeer is safer than oversteer (when first displayed mid corner) in the hands of your "average" driver. That is the premise of "designing in understeer" into modern cars. Making sure that the first response to this is to understeer. Even RWD BMW's understeer initially in these situations.

Push the throttle mid corner, and it is preferable for a car to understeer, than the back to whip around for the majority of drivers. Both in the sense of correcting it, and the consequences of how you hit an obstacle.

I am driving on the open roads daily, and is a continual frustration at every bend, corner and roundabout. Other people aren't bothered by this, but I am. Some S3 owners are happy with the level of grip offered to them, and never ever will discover the suspension foibles of the S3.

With all due respect, you said you "felt the active alterations of 4wd system compensating when traction/braking was required at opposite corners of the car."

This is rubbish. It's a Haldex system, you cannot possible feel the AWD doing anything during braking, as it complete dis-engages, and the S3 becomes a front wheel drive car. There is no AWD or 4WD activity in those situations.

Why do I use the word "ridiculous"? Because for a £40k hot/hyper hatch, I expect better handling and steering characteristics than what is offered out of the factory as standard. I do not expect to have spend more on aftermarket to "upgrade" components to make it behave as well as a lower priced Fiesta ST.

Again - if you don't like reviews and reviewers, there are many owners on here that report poor handling and suspension traits on the S3 - if you care to search.
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I never mentioned anything about the 4wd system under breaking (you putting words in my mouth now -haha). I said that the drive and/or breaking is electronically accounted for by the shift of power to other (opposing corners) of the car, to produce grip. This is what a clever 4wd system does. You can feel the rear corner breaking if you go into a corner too hot to compensate for loss of grip at the front.

Bottom line is, if you want to stick to the road like glue, go buy a McLaren P1. If you want a car that is a brilliant all-round car, then buy the S3 for £31k (not £40k as you state above).

Anyone that thinks the handling of the S3 is nothing other than above average, is bonkers! Upgrading a car's components to give you a limited increase in grip is a waste of money. Fine if you're racing and trying to find half a second in lap time. But back in the real world... adjust your driving to compensate, and enjoy the long list of other benefits that the S3 has to offer over the likes of a ****** Ford Fiesta!!

:end of discction:
 
Flatoot said:
I never mentioned anything about the 4wd system under breaking (you putting words in my mouth now -haha).
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Here are your words, in black and white :)
Flatoot said:
I felt the active alterations of 4wd system compensating when traction/braking was required at opposite corners of the car.
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This is what a clever 4wd system does. You can feel the rear corner breaking if you go into a corner too hot to compensate for loss of grip at the front.
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Unfortunately, Haldex is not a clever 4WD system, and it does not contribute to any braking any rears. It disengages the rears.


Yes, I can drive around the limitations of the S3's understeer (I do all the time), but why should I have to, in a £40k car? I don't have to in many other cars.


Upgrading a car's components to give you a limited increase in grip is a waste of money. Fine if you're racing and trying to find half a second in lap time. But back in the real world... adjust your driving to compensate, and enjoy the long list of other benefits that the S3 has to offer over the likes of a ****** Ford Fiesta!!
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Well, you should 'ave a word with all these "bonkers" owners then, who have upgraded to good effect, to make it drive at least as well as a Ford Fiesta :D
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/coilovers-for-the-8v.241997/
 
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veeeight said:
Well, you should 'ave a word with all these "bonkers" owners then, who have upgraded to good effect, to make it drive at least as well as a Ford Fiesta :D
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/coilovers-for-the-8v.241997/
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I wasn't referring to what happens under breaking, I was talking about the electronics adjusting/compensating for loss of grip at differing corners (torque vectoring).

Anyone who would care to invalidate their manufacturer's warranty by fitting aftermarket products, in a forlorn hope of obtaining a fraction more speed or grip, is a worry to me and is completely missing the point on what an Audi is all about. Take yourself off to the Ford showroom and buy yourself an ST and go hang out with the rest of the boy racers/cruisers. An Audi is about polished refinement and functionality, coupled with performance and in the case of the S3, high residuals.

If I was looking for a race car for the road, I'd buy a race car for the road. Not buy a sports car for the road and spend £10k making it handle better. I've got better things to do with my money/time and to be quite frank, if you think you're not getting enough grip out of the S3 in standard stock trim, then you are probably driving too ****** fast for the conditions anyway. :racer:
 
Yes understeer is the 'safety solution' as 90% of the people don't know how to drive and aren't interested in learning, but if i buy a sports model (and I don't mean a sports car), especially one with 300bhp. I don't expect to the have the same under-steer characteristics of some FWD white-goods. If i want to want an understeering pig I'll go buy any number of Japanese or Korean cars.

Our roads down under are different to the UK, our round-abouts are 20km/h affairs and we don't have the same undulating B-roads so you notice the 'bounciness' only ever now and again. Which means the handling is ok, nothing brilliant, nothing special and the rest of the car compensates for that.

But as others have said if this was a A3, oh well its fine for what it is, but for an S3 - I thought it should have handled a little better and I don't think it would have taken much of an effort on Audi's part to achieve it.
 
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Flatoot said:
I wasn't referring to what happens under breaking, I was talking about the electronics adjusting/compensating for loss of grip at differing corners (torque vectoring).

Anyone who would care to invalidate their manufacturer's warranty by fitting aftermarket products, in a forlorn hope of obtaining a fraction more speed or grip, is a worry to me and is completely missing the point on what an Audi is all about. Take yourself off to the Ford showroom and buy yourself an ST and go hang out with the rest of the boy racers/cruisers. An Audi is about polished refinement and functionality, coupled with performance and in the case of the S3, high residuals.

If I was looking for a race car for the road, I'd buy a race car for the road. Not buy a sports car for the road and spend £10k making it handle better. I've got better things to do with my money/time and to be quite frank, if you think you're not getting enough grip out of the S3 in standard stock trim, then you are probably driving too ****** fast for the conditions anyway. :racer:
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Your exact words were 4WD system compensating when traction/braking was required.

The Haldex does no such thing.
The electronics do no such thing.
There is torque vectoring braking on the car but this only works on the fronts - not on the rears.

As for "too fast for the conditions" this is the whole point of this thread. Too fast for this particular car in the conditions would be more accurate. Other cars manage just fine in identical situations.

Performance is nothing without control.


If you want to buy an Audi because it meets your needs, that's great.

For some (myself included), for a Audi S car, it's too compromised away from great handling and steering.
 
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mfl said:
But as other have said if this was a A3, oh well its fine for what it is, but for an S3 - I thought it should have handled a little better and I don't think it would have taken much of an effort on Audi's part to achieve it.
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This sums it up,well. We know the MQB platform is capable, and it's a shame Audi didnt go that last 20% to make this great.
 
Quality conversation guys......

great to hear the different views and highlights why we all have different favorite cars/set ups as we are all human after all, otherwise we would all be driving round in standard 1.6 Astra's and be happy as Larry

P.s Would love to get the view of the Audi designers and get them to give an overview of their design intent & strategy
 
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veeeight said:
If you want to buy an Audi because it meets your needs, that's great.

For some (myself included), for a Audi S car, it's too compromise away from great handling and steering.
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You probably don't meet the Audi target audience in that case. Perhaps an Astra VX or Focus ST? Something that lends itself more to a trip the Demon Tweeks website and a bit of a shopping spree.

Audi S3's are more destined for the middle class, refined gent. This is where Audi see their demographic. I have had plenty of classic 'hot hatches' that many would say, were better handling cars than an S3... Renault 5 GT Turbo and Peugeot 205 1.9 GTi are the most notable. Sure, I had a whale of a time chucking them round the back roads when in my early 20's and indeed, may have gone and chucked on a stiffer ARB or springs.
But now in my mid 40's.... I'm not in the least bit interested in getting 99.9% out of my car. I'm not racing my mates round the streets or country roads any more. I'm more sensible. Have grown up. If the road is wet, I don't want to push the car beyond it's limits. I don't want to endanger myself or my family who may be present. But I know the S3 will do everything I ask of it at this stage of my driving career (if you can call it that). That much was apparent on a 24 hour test drive which ticked all the boxes.... refinement - check, blistering torque and acceleration - check, good looks that blend in well and don't make me look like a boy racer - check, great handling in all weather conditions (particularly snow when I've fitted my winter tyres) - check.

If I was looking for out and out performance, I'd have bought myself a 3 year old R8 or a 2nd hand 911. But I didn't.

Some of you guys are looking for far too much out of your cars I think.... 0-60 in 4.8.... 300bhp.... luxurious interior... great residual.... street cred... decent mpg. Live with the understeer..... it's probably all in your mind anyway :alien:
 
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Love it :D


First it was "You're not driving it right"

Second it was "You don't know what you're talking about"

Third it was "You don't meet the criteria of an Audi Customer"

Now it's "You're expecting too much from an Audi S3"


Brilliant! :D

Straight out of the Apple/Audi Customer relations handbook. You really couldn't make this up :D
 
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Sheesh is this perennial debate still going on?

For those that don't like a particular characteristic of a car, drive to compensate - or go and buy something else!

Oh, and please stop using track tests as evidence of real world ownership of the S3 because it isn't. It's no different in real terms than my XF-S was to a standard XF - it's a mass market model, with a few tweaks designed to meet mass market requirements. It isn't designed specifically for leafy suburbs, or wet roundabouts in Swindon - it is designed to meet the most of the requirements for most of the people in most of the world. If you are in that 5th or 95th percentile of whom it doesn't fully meet your requirements - find something that does, or fix the bits that don't work!
 
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Track test are just that - track tests to benchmark whatever you are looking to benchmark.

It's also important to also recognise the type of track - power track (eg: Knockhill) or handling track (eg: Llandau). It's as valid or invalid as you want to make it.

Other benchmarks are as valid or invalid, depending on your take on them:

0-60 times (real world application?)
30-50 or 50-70 in gear times are much more applicable in the real world, but people love to quote 0-60 times :)

The usual cry, of course, is that people usually resort to "I'll never drive my car on the track, so it's irrelevant". Which is fine, but a track test does usually show up flaws quicker than just a drive on "normal" roads. And the converse is also true.

I usually find that people love to promote track tests and media reviews when their car is shown in a good light. When their car doesn't do so well, all track tests and media reviews are immediately pronounced as rubbish or irrelevant. :D
 
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veeeight said:
Love it :D
First it was "You're not driving it right"

Second it was "You don't know what you're talking about"

Third it was "You don't meet the criteria of an Audi Customer"

Now it's "You're expecting too much from an Audi S3"


Brilliant! :D

Straight out of the Apple/Audi Customer relations handbook. You really couldn't make this up :D
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I'm sorry to pee on your chips as the saying goes, but I neither work for Apple or Audi, so couldn't give a monkey's about my particular customer relations. I'm not looking to curry favour with anyone as it happens. But come out with sweeping statements like the handling of the S3 is 'ridiculous' then I'm afraid you need to prepare yourself to be shot down in flames. The reason being, that quite obviously, your statement is flawed in so many ways.

veeeight said:
Track test are just that - track tests to benchmark whatever you are looking to benchmark.

It's also important to also recognise the type of track - power track (eg: Knockhill) or handling track (eg: Llandau). It's as valid or invalid as you want to make it.

The usual cry, of course, is that people usually resort to "I'll never drive my car on the track, so it's irrelevant". Which is fine, but a track test does usually show up flaws quicker than just a drive on "normal" roads. And the converse is also true.
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This is a particular bug bear of mine. Folk have fallen foul of the Jeremy Clarkson syndrome. Let's take a sports car, get lots of fancy artistic camera angles of it being driven round a corner, with me getting it broadside and lighting up the tyres. This is not how people drive their cars. Nor is it how we want to have a review on a particular car shown to us (one that allows us to make an informed decision that is).
A lot of the reviews I watch of cars, these guys are horsing round a track saying, wow, bit of oversteer there, but of understeer there blah. Yeah, do you base your opinion on woman in the same way mate? If she doesn't blow on the first date, is she consigned to the scrapheap?

Track test, shmack test. Go fullfil your egotistical Tiff Niddell showboating to someone that gives a hoot.

Ridiculous handling? No. End of debate.
 
Ridiculous?

Yes, for a £40k "S" Car, performance without the control & handling to match.

A real shame Audi didn't go that last 20% to make it handle at least as well as a Golf R (also MQB platform).


Flatoot said:
Go fullfil your egotistical Tiff Niddell showboating to someone that gives a hoot.
Click to expand...

Actually, it was you who waded into this thread with both feet, with your misinformed and incorrect knowledge about the AWD system on the S3, and started telling everyone else they weren't driving it properly. :D
 
veeeight said:
Ridiculous?

Yes, for a £40k "S" Car, performance without the control & handling to match.

A real shame Audi didn't go that last 20% to make it handle at least as well as a Golf R (also MQB platform).

Actually, it was you who waded into this thread with both feet, with your misinformed and incorrect knowledge about the AWD system on the S3, and started telling everyone else they weren't driving it properly. :D
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You can drive one out of the showroom for £31k or there abouts. Don't let that stop you inflating the price up by 25% though. The extras don't make it a better performing car (although it could be said mag suspension is a wee bit of an upgrade.

I would have to look at your comments on the transmission and the fact it only influences the front wheels. I suspect this is s***e but don't have the interest to go digging into it.

Bottom line - you said the handling is ridiculous. Whether it's 3k or 30k you spend on your motor, the handling is as far from being ridiculous as day is from night. Ridiculous is a 2CV. Ridiculous is a Fiat Panda. Ridiculous is a Bedford van. Not an S3.

You are confusing an S3 (a tweaked and upgraded S-Line let's be honest) for something far more expensive in the Audi range. I'm sorry it doesn't let you take sodden hairpins at 70mph, or take a tight enough apex through your local roundabouts. Spend your £40k on a Caterham if that's what you're after.
 
£30k for a base model
By the time you've added some sensible options, £35k

Haldex is a part time AWD system. It doesn't do any of the things you say you experienced.

Yet again, we have someone on the forum, who has driven the car over 24 hours, but thinks they are in a better position to comment on the S3 before actually owning it, and discovering all its foibles and flaws.

The S3 is an underwhelming drive for me (apart from the straight line performance and traction) and its handling and steering leave a lot to be desired for a hot/hyper/premium hatch - no matter how you cut it.

Others are delighted by it, and it suits their needs.
 
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veeeight said:
£30k for a base model
By the time you've added some sensible options, £35k

Haldex is a part time AWD system. It doesn't do any of the things you say you experienced.

Yet again, we have someone on the forum, who has driven the car over 24 hours, but thinks they are in a better position to comment on the S3 before actually owning it, and discovering all its foibles and flaws.

The S3 is an underwhelming drive for me (apart from the straight line performance and traction) and its handling and steering leave a lot to be desired for a hot/hyper/premium hatch - no matter how you cut it.

Others are delighted by it, and it suits their needs.
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The fact remains that the base model, which is perfectly acceptable and light years ahead of a ST or whichever car of your choice that you think s****ts all over the S3, is £31,500. So please stop trying to justfify your position by adding on an additional £8.5k to the price tag.

I'm happy to accept your stance if you retract your statement on the S3 being a ridiculous handling car. Otherwise, you're just making yourself look ridiculous. What's the history between you and your S3. Did she leave you for a guy with a bigger shlong or something? Some serious hangups you got going on there.
 
And who buys a base model S3, without any meaningful options?

Unless of course, you want an S3 just for the sake of saying that you own/drive and S3. ;)

Actually, a Fiesta ST out-performs a S3 in the steering and handling stakes. It's also much more fun to drive.

I used the word "ridiculous" about understeer, and in the context that a car costing £35k, and promoted as a Audi "S" car, can be put to shame in terms of lateral grip, by much so-called "lesser" cars.

Let's revisit where I first used the word "ridiculous" in this thread:
"I appreciate that production cars have a degree of understeer dialled in for safety, but it's ridiculous on the S3. It makes for a one-dimensional drive, all you end up doing is managing understeer and waiting for when you can nail it out of the corner."

You are incorrectly trying to hang a single word used in a specific context, on something more. A shame you can't see past that.
 
veeeight said:
Ridiculous?
Yes, for a £40k "S" Car, performance without the control & handling to match.
[ /QUOTE]
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What is an "S" car? Its a model designation isn't it, just like GLX, RS, GTI, Ghia, Eco,

I have never seen a design specification that says all cars with a 'S' badge on the back need to meet any particular set of requirements, other than the designers. If we were talking about a GT car or a Not sure what your benchmark is veeeight? Is it your perception of what "S" means, or is a specified criteria somewhere?

Test tracks are only benchmarks for test tracks. They are a) non-representative of real world driving (ie theres no oncoming traffic, and you can use the whole road for corner positioning) and b) allow cars to be drive in such a manner that would possibly be considered dangerous on a public road. Neither of which make them any use for anything other than track comparisions
 
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My S3 is an awesome car (and a gorgeous place to sit) but I'm classifying it as special needs on the handling front. The merest hint of rough tarmac, ESP kicks in; hump-backed bridges, ESP kicks in; damp roads, grip levels way down; undulating surfaces and some speed, better close your eyes on to that one, Mr. Passenger!

I've done over 17,000 miles now - some a great deal faster than others - including some pretty long stints (400+ miles in a day) and it's a supremely comfortable car (for me) and furiously fast in the right conditions (Glen Coe, smooth dry roads, sweeping overtakes on the outside of a bend, marvellous!) but I end up (relatively) tip-toeing in the wet. And remember, this whole never-ending thread I started over a year ago(!) often comes down to what's relative for each person and their expectations/experience.


I'd be intrigued to know if Audi actually sell any S3's with no options... pretty unlikely - list price for mine was £37k and I'd say that's about "normal".
 
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Nimbus265 said:
Not sure what your benchmark is veeeight? Is it your perception of what "S" means, or is a specified criteria somewhere?
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Just would like it to do what it says on the tin, an "S" car should be something better than an A3 Sport or S-Line in terms of dynamics. As it is, it has a powerful engine 300PS, bodykit, lowered suspension, but arguably worse damping and steering than an A3 with standard steering and sport suspension. As noted elsewhere, there are many others who find the spring and damper settings on the S3 not a great combination when pressing on.

bg1hKTb.jpg


I hate to say this, but I do find the humble 1.4 A3 Sport a much more rewarding drive!


Nimbus265 said:
thats interesting - never felt my ESP kick in at all....
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Honestly?
I do find the ABS and ESP calibration much too "trigger happy" on the S3, especially in the wet.
 
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veeeight said:
Just would like it to do what it says on the tin, an "S" car should be something better than an A3 Sport or S-Line in terms of dynamics. As it is, it has a powerful engine 300PS, bodykit, lowered suspension, but arguably worse damping and steering than an A3 with standard steering and sport suspension. As noted elsewhere, there are many others who find the spring and damper settings on the S3 not a great combination when pressing on.

bg1hKTb.jpg





Honestly?
I do find the ABS and ESP calibration much too "trigger happy" on the S3, especially in the wet.
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Yep honestly - perhaps yours has a fault - or I drive like a woose!
 
:lmfao:

I would never presume to suggest that :lmfao:

I too, like the OP, tend to have to tip-toe around in the wet, braking much earlier, and taking corners much more gingerly, than I would in other cars.
 
Nimbus265 said:
thats interesting - never felt my ESP kick in at all....
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OK, so that makes me think there's something wrong with my car again!

It kicked in this morning - T-junction, turned off into side road, slightly broken up surface (not loose gravel but some shallow pot-hole type chaps) and damp - not in any way gunning it as I accelerated away and noticed ESP flashing away... wonder if my Haldex is unwell?
 
I've just had my Haldex pump replaced, it broke

Test it out in a wet grassy field. :)

(The other symptom is a small amount of torque steer on the steering as you floor it in a straight line)
 
veeeight said:
I've just had my Haldex pump replaced, it broke

Test it out in a wet grassy field. :)

(The other symptom is a small amount of torque steer on the steering as you floor it in a straight line)
Click to expand...

Yes, I've noticed torque steer when I give it some silly beans in a straight line - right, where did I put that wet field? Might be easier to get Audi to look at it.
 
Some of the comments are certainly getting interesting, so apparently if you think that the handling of the S3 isn't stellar in some conditions your are in the wrong demographic, driving at dangerous speeds on public roads, endangering your family and race tracks don't prove anything.

I'd hate to think that the S3 were only intended for middle age gents, but as a public servant in his early 50's I may or may not fit into that category and the fact for me that people complain or are disappointed in some aspects of their cars is because the rest of car is that good.

Otherwise, you'd simply sell the car and move on.

The racetrack of course, is where you can have fun without endangering anyone, but I have never driven fast with family in the car. It is also here the handling characteristics are exposed.

But when you are travelling along a country road, that you have travelled on before, in your new S3 (at the speed limit) and the dip in the road makes you and your passengers bounce in their seats, where the previous time in our mk6 GTI, I didn't even notice it - it makes you think, the suspension just needed a little more work.

and just for some context, the 'hot hatch' category is only a relatively new in Oz, in my 20s the choice was what brand of V8 did your drive and then later if you didn't want a V8, was it a WRX, EVO or Skyline, Silvia choices. So for me the S3 wasn't stepping up from a 'hot hatch' but downsizing from a V8 (none of which were ever standard )
 
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