S3 OR RS3

Reading the top gear article, I think this sums the Type-R up perfectly. "It’s a very good car, but the styling is too childish for a hatch that’s not affordable by the people it most likely appeals to".
 
It's becoming a crowded market that's for sure. After living with a Focus for a few weeks the RS version would have to be a bit more refined in terms of the cabin and controls to get me to buy one. R400 Golf does sound intresting however....

Think strong GFV's, reasonable finance rates and dealers wanting to hit targets have helped people get in to S3's on reasonable monthly payments.

Try financing a Megane RS on PCP - hence why they don't sell many. I remember reading an EVO car of the year article banging on about how great the Megane is but even with the motoring press banging on about it - no one bought it! EVO were very upset it wasn't a sales success.....
 
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They're just moronic tests. So one lap in each car and they declare one as the best. Really? After just one lap? You have the laugh at the pomposity of some of these motoring journalists. They're not world class drivers yet on a track, doing one lap they feel they can declare one car is better than another as a result of their mediocre driving skills.

And they still ignore the quite important fact that about 90% of buyers of these cars will never see a track in their lives.
 
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Um

1 flying lap for timing is a valid comparison.

And Steve Sutcliffe is a former racing driver.
 
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veeeight said:
Um

1 flying lap for timing is a valid comparison.

And Steve Sutcliffe is an ex racing driver.
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It is in it's t**ts valid. Maybe he had a bad lap in one of them messed up a corner, screwed up a downshift. Who knows, you'd need at least 10 laps of each and then compile the lap times.

Steve who? That says it all mate.....
 
veeeight said:
Steve Sutcliffe, ex BTC, yes, probably before your time :)
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He (was?) running and paying for his own hot hatch for a while. Not sure if he still has it.

It was an A45 AMG. Says a lot....
 
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@Pulp84 Can you please let Mrs. Pulp know that I'm impatiently waiting for my paper brochure for the new A45, tell M-B UK to pull their finger out :p

(And I hope you're feeling better after your recent nasty incident) :(
 
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veeeight said:
@Pulp84 Can you please let Mrs. Pulp know that I'm impatiently waiting for my paper brochure for the new A45, tell M-B UK to pull their finger out

(And I hope you're feeling better after your recent nasty incident) :(
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@veeeight - MB marketing are very slow getting stuff out to dealers. Mrs Pulp says order it online and you should get it a bit quicker than popping in to a dealer.

Mrs Pulp has put us down for an extended test drive of the new A45 when some get to the UK. However, staff discount is only 3.5% for AMG's so it depends on the monthlys.

All OK after my accident - thanks for asking :) Just trying to decide what company car to go for next as a replacement.....
 
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s3_trev said:
Yes really. Read what I said again. Hint: its not just about cost.
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You said, you agreed with the conclusion of the top gear article that the styling was "too childish for a hatch that was not affordable by the people it most likely appeals to".


So there are two aspects, 1 is the styling (subjective), the other is the false sweeping generalisation about affordability.
 
veeeight said:
The best fish are the ones with a proper mechanical trick diff in the front axle. ;)

AMG A45 :D
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I know slightly OT and although my preference is for AWD over FWD, mechanical diff or not, I think if we are referring to the best option, for enthusiast drivers, I still think you can't go past a RWD, with a mechanical LSD..... :sunglasses:
 
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jassyo06 said:
"There's always a bigger fish" as they say, the new Type R is the "Newish/bigger Fish" and the next "EVEN" Bigger Fish" will be the Focus RS 320 bhp AWD,Then the next one will be......?lf only we could afford to keep up?
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veeeight said:
The best fish are the ones with a proper mechanical trick diff in the front axle. ;)

AMG A45 :D
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These are both true....
There will always be something better handling/faster/more power etc etc.

Also....a torque sensing diff makes a huge difference.
The open diff Audi fit is frankly rubbish coupled with the useless TC
 
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S3Alex said:
The open diff Audi fit is frankly rubbish coupled with the useless TC
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Yes totally agree.

The one thing I will say in favour of the TC/ESP in the 8V compared to the 8P is that the programming is slightly different, it allows, even when fully on, more freedom before it activates. I can drift quite easily around roundabouts in the wet without the nanny cutting in, like it used to regularly on the 8P. And then in Sport mode, more sideways is possible.

Though I'm sure it will still fight like crazy when you introduce Quaife - like yours :p

This is why I'm especially keen to drive the new A45, I really want to see how they have managed to stop the ESP fighting with the LSD in that car :)
 
That's good news that they've reined it in a bit.

The fundamental problem is the way it works,and may well account for Audi not fitting a torque sensing diff in the first place,as the two do fight with each other on slippery surfaces.
Audi's system applies braking to the wheel that's slipping,and the diff doesn't get on with that very well,as I think it senses the brake drag as a bit of grip.

Anyhow...the new ECU works in a different way,and senses lateral G as well as wheelspin,and instead of using braking,what it does is to reduce torque by retarding ignition,and can also reduce fuelling.
It has 6 preset maps for TC,from aggressive to mild,all governed by how much wheelspin and lateral G is permitted at each stage.
It doesn't fight with the diff,and even on the most aggressive setting,is pretty much unnoticeable in use.
 
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veeeight said:
You said, you agreed with the conclusion of the top gear article that the styling was "too childish for a hatch that was not affordable by the people it most likely appeals to".

So there are two aspects, 1 is the styling (subjective), the other is the false sweeping generalisation about affordability.
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Facepalm. Dont let it annoy you dude.
 
I'm not.

But if you want to stand by false generalisations, that's your downfall :D
 
mfl said:
I know slightly OT and although my preference is for AWD over FWD, mechanical diff or not, I think if we are referring to the best option, for enthusiast drivers, I still think you can't go past a RWD, with a mechanical LSD..... :sunglasses:
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Off topic indeed - here is my opinion:

You have flung AWD into one category, the truth is not as simple.

Front engined RWD is the best for composed, involving drive.
Mid/rear engined RWD separates the men from the boys.
Torsen AWD is better than or equal to FWD with diff.
FWD with diff is better than Haldex "AWD".
Haldex AWD is better than FWD without a diff.

Summary; Haldex isn't my favourite.
 
CraigI said:
Off topic indeed - here is my opinion:

You have flung AWD into one category, the truth is not as simple.

Front engined RWD is the best for composed, involving drive.
Mid/rear engined RWD separates the men from the boys.
Torsen AWD is better than or equal to FWD with diff.
FWD with diff is better than Haldex "AWD".
Haldex AWD is better than FWD without a diff.

Summary; Haldex isn't my favourite.
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Absolutely right.

But then it gets even more complex as we all have different preferences.
Mine,for covering ground quickly,all weathers,all road conditions is torque sensing diffs and 4WD

Haldex has it's problems,but coupled with a torque sensing diff,and proper(i.e.not Audi's version) TC it works well.
4WD properly implemented is much better than FWD or RWD for traction and covering ground.


So now the can has been opened....
 
....... it's almost impossible to get those worms back in ;)


As supplied by Audi, I don't like Haldex in "locked" form, around corners or twisties. The fact that it's locked, with no centre diff like Torsen, means that you are effectively driving the rear wheels at the same revolutions as the front wheels. Not a good thing to be doing.

So around a corner, this is completely unnatural/wrong, is forcing the rear wheels to do something they aren't supposed to do, and it upsets the handling/balance of the car.

Additionally, if you're already in understeer in the damp, then all Haldex does is to push you into more understeer!
 
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I think the Haldex sport/race controller helps and a very clever ECU that interacts with it is even better but my gripe is that all of these are aftermarket additions and whilst I'm not saying that everyone would want them,some modifications to the oem spec would go a long way to fixing most of the issues.

After all,Haldex diffs have been used in the supercar section of rallycross very successfully in prior years.
 
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Yep, Rallycross and WRC applications are great for Haldex, as the excess slip can be accounted for on the loose surfaces.

But in the roadgoing car (eg S3, RS3 TT etc) - on grippy tarmac, the only way they have to stop the transmission wind up is to disengage it frequently, eg: when you apply the brakes!

So, an AWD system is really a part time AWD system in the case of Haldex. :)
(despite what some people will have you believe) !
 
The other aspect there is clever mapping of the Haldex taking into account a lot more parameters than the road going system does.
Anyway we won't get that!

It certainly isn't full time and nothing at all at high speed when it disengages.
 
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S3Alex said:
Absolutely right.
So now the can has been opened....
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I certainly did let open the can...:astonished: but it made for a good read !
but just for context, I certainly have driven all the variety of FWD & AWD combos mentioned.... I'll just be a little more specific next time.
 
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mfl said:
I certainly did let open the can...:astonished: but it made for a good read !
but just for context, I certainly have driven all the variety of FWD & AWD combos mentioned.... I'll just be a little more specific next time.
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Yes it did....and I've had most of them as well over the yrs.

The transition between a tuned RWD Cosworth and a 4WD Escort was like night and day.....no more thinking would it grip or not,and sub 4s 0-60s on any surface.
Had me hooked.
 
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From a driving perspective, my favourite is currently the R8, with the Viscous Coupling arrangement. True rear wheel drive bias, and traction from the fronts when you need it.

It's one of the very few cars I've driven where you can turn a mild understeer mid corner, into a powered oversteer with ease and controllability. A true everyday supercar.
 
Guys I am not and expert like you but asking myself what is an RS3, I answer to myself that it is marketed as a "sport car", but it is a transverse layout with an haldex transmission on the same platform of the A3 1.2. End of story.

For that price I'd surely buy an used Porsche or similar.

A quick question about the engine: is it the same unit that equips the present RS Q3, the TT RS and (I suppose) the 8P RS3?

If yes, with a "cheap" S3 you are at least buying a brand new engine.
 
Yes, it is the same 2.5l 5-cyl as previously, but re-worked to meet EU6 emissions and a modest increase in power.

But- you are always going to be chasing engine technology to some extent, the new 'hot' thing is the new TFSI engine in the new A4, adaptation of the Miller Cycle.
 
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danilotto said:
If yes, with a "cheap" S3 you are at least buying a brand new engine.
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Aye, the metallic rustling noise is free as well. oh, and add the fake sound pumped into the cabin with the 4 pot.
But then if we all liked the same things life would be boring. Many have real hate for the S3 and it's driving characteristics, I have been driving a long time doing illegal speeds on public roads in far worse performing 'vehicles' (quite legally) and I can work around the very small issues and have a good time in it. And in the wet it's even better. I guess if you come from driving the types of things I used to have to 'control' with some road craft, the S3 is a major step up LOL. Are there better cars? Yes, Do I care? No, not really. Do others? Yes, continually, but hey ho. ;)
 
That's a bad blow to the RS3. It's whole MO is to be top of the VW group hot hatch club surely. And what's worse, the Leon Cupra we know can match the Golf R around the track on even less power and no 4WD! VW group seems to be all over the place here.
 
Roberto71 said:
That's a bad blow to the RS3. I
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Not really, unless you intend to track day one. Otherwise the test is irrelevant. Mega Pinch of salt - the reviewer was not balanced imho - just listen to his leading intro about the RS3 and S3.
 
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Except, that almost universally and consistently, all established reviewers of the RS3 say that the Golf R is the better buy.

Both in terms of value, and driving dynamics.
 
So why do you own a S3 if that's the truth and we are to base our opinions on what established reviewers think? What makes him established? How is this guy any more qualified than the next purely subjective reviewer?

Reviewers are welcome to their opinions, but I disagree having driven the cars in question on a road as I would use them. I also own the S3. The Golf R doesn't destroy the S3 as the reviewer claims. The rest is also subjective nonsense in my opinion, buy hey that's just my opinion and to me the only one that matters. I'll refrain from shoving it down everyone's neck for the next 6 pages of this thread though.
 
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As Foxtrot_Oscar said, the Review is hardly worth worrying about!

The RS3 is still an awesome Car & is worth Buying purely for that Fantastic Sounding 5Cyl Engine!

For most Average/Good Drivers, the RS3 will still be the Fastest & Safest Car on normal Roads!

No doubt that the New Civic R is a good Car, but with that Styling, it does look like its Crashed through Halfords!
It doesn't have the 'Status' or Class of the RS3, for people that are 30+!
 
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