Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

A bit of both mate :laugh: I've recently started a new job, and we've booked our wedding, so there is much going on there at the moment. As well as trying to get things in place for the garage as I've not had time yet this year. Hopefully the garage shall make some progress in the next month.

Also some fairly important car stuff that I'll write about pretty shortly when things happen :)
 
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In slightly depressing other news, I’m going to a trackday on Saturday at long last!


Only I’m not going in my car!


I’ll be going to Bedford GT with Daz to spend a day fiddling and experimenting with his S3 to see what’s working on it, and more importantly, what’s not.


It’ll be strange being at a trackday without the A3, but hopefully I won’t feel like a complete spare part as Daz has very kindly said he’ll let me drive a session to see what I think of the car :)
 
Were going to take the s3 within an inch of its life!!! And car SHARE not just a session silly prawny.
Be extremely interesting for all on your view of the s3 no doubt!!!
i want to have a great fun SAFE day out!!!
Stop making it sound like work!! :)
 
Nope
No point in haldex
At all
Be fun driving a bus round the track tho eh!!
 
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So, after Donington last year it was pretty apparent that my discs weren’t looking too happy.

They were looking even LESS happy when I removed them on Friday:





Just as well these turned up then!





Reyland 335 x 28mm J hooked discs.

I’m well aware that the Reylands are a cheaper option, and that they’re not curved vane, but I’m keen to give them a try and see if they will work for me.

The friction surfaces of the compbrake rotors were 6.5 and 5.5mm, outside and inside respectively. With an air gap of 16mm.

The main problem as I see it, is that the grooves machined in are very deep, and run right to the edge of the disc, meaning there is a very thin section at the end of each groove, and that’s exactly where they have cracked.

Each disc had 3-4 of these cracks, both front and rear, so they really were absolutely ruined, hence me not tracking the car at all this year.

Here you can see how thin the ‘plates’ are on the compbrake disc:



This is apparently to keep weight down, and also apparently they are designed primarily with rally use in mind, with a large air gap for maximum cooling and less chance of the vanes getting clogged by debris on stage.

The Reyland rotors have ‘plates’ of almost 9mm thick each side, with a 10mm air gap.



Whilst this means they are heavier, it hopefully means that there will be more metal to dissipate heat, and far less chance of cracking hopefully.

The old discs were looking REALLY crappy generally when I came to remove them:





I removed all the bolts to separate the discs from the bells:



I loosely wire brushed all the bobbins and bolts first:



Before soaking them overnight and all day Saturday in white vinegar, something I’d been told is excellent for cleaning and removing corrosion etc:



After a good soak, I spent a further 3 hours carefully wire brushing and cleaning up each individual bolt, bobbin, and nut. This was NOT fun.

With them all cleaned, I put them in groups into a paint can lid, and sprayed them liberally with silicon PTFE lubricant which dries and leaves a PTFE coating. Whether this will last, or be fried off immediately I’m not sure, but it seemed worthwhile when assembling anyway:



Then, as it was raining, I assembled the discs, bells, and bobbins, and torqued them all to 11lbft as recommended by AP:





Rich, who maintains the autotech TT recommended to me last year that after building up a disc, make sure it is freely floating by rattling it to ensure it moves freely on the bobbins.

I did this on the first disc, and it rattled nicely:



I tried on the second one, and it was silent. Eek.

By a process of elimination, I worked my way around the disc, and it was fairly easy to feel which of the 12 bobbins wasn’t moving freely. It would float if forced, but not freely at all.

I undid the troublesome bobbin, and as expected, I found a tiny bit of corrosion proud of the face on just one side. This was only around 0.2mm or so, but it was enough to lock up the disc.

I filed it back, and recoated in the PTFE spray, and torqued up the bolts, and this time, the disc floated and rattled nicely. Job done.
 
Hi Nick :hi:
Thought I'd join up here now that I've got an Audi. Hopefully find time to put up a thread soon, even if it is just going to sit in the garage.
Good to see some updates on the car.
 
Hi Alex, great to see you on here! This thread is far more up to date than any other you'll find for my car also, I tend to keep it all here then occasionally update the others.

Really looking forward to having another 8L track car doing the rounds, and yours is certainly a good one with a fantastic history :)

Looking forward to seeing a thread soon :racer:
 
Think you have got your moneys worth out of those discs Nick, Can't imagine they would have lasted much longer before a failure occured.
The new ones look a lot more sturdy, plenty of meet on those.

Karl.
 
not convinced the thicker disk section and reduced non curved vane rotor cooling will be "better" for cooling... More disk metal section, more heat build up, and less encouragement of airflow up through the rotor itself.

badgerwagen rotors holding up very well. 3 quali and races in, all looks mint.
Pagid pads lasting well too.
 
They're consumable items albeit expensive ones.

Funny thing with improved motorsport parts is everytime you upgrade you find the next weakest link
 
thats the bit most folks dont 'get'

Brakes are consumable..
If used in anger they will wear and fail.. don't use them as hard they last longer.. lol They only slow you down anyways..... :p
 
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I think I’ve perhaps expressed that wrong in terms of the cooling.

My understanding is, that with the compbrakes, due to having much less metal they are super heating very quickly, to the point where they are cracking at the weak points at the end of each groove. Hopefully the Reylands won’t suffer this same fate with a thicker disc taking longer to heat up, although it will of course get hot and retain heat also, so who knows?

I’m under no illusion that the smaller air gap and lack of curved vanes will be ‘better’, it’s just hopefully a different approach that might work, and if it doesn’t, It’s not cost the earth to find out.

I didn’t want to risk Compbrakes again, as although they’re no doubt a good product for their intended use, they obviously don’t work for me :( I don’t know too many people who are destroying a set of discs in 3 trackdays

I think if I could go to a larger wheel / disc / caliper they could run much cooler, and both discs and pads could last longer. I think they’d also last longer if I had a lighter car, and didn’t run it on slicks. It was the change to slicks that really started to show up the extreme brake useage.

Still, I’m going to see how these Reylands go, and if they work then it’s a significant cost reduction in running costs. If not, it’s back to the drawing board and I might look into something else. Time will tell.

I got the discs fitted on Monday night, and took them out to bed them in.

The cooling setup as it is currently:



Discs on and calipers cleaned up a little:





New pads, Mintex F2R again:





Bobbins cleaned up pretty nicely:



I went out for a drive to bed them in, I think it’s safe to say I got them pretty warm!





Last night I headed out to the West Meon Hut for the PistonHeads Pub Club meeting, it was a pretty decent turn out, with some cool stuff there :)

 
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not convinced the thicker disk section and reduced non curved vane rotor cooling will be "better" for cooling... More disk metal section, more heat build up, and less encouragement of airflow up through the rotor itself.

badgerwagen rotors holding up very well. 3 quali and races in, all looks mint.
Pagid pads lasting well too.


What Pagid pads did you go for this time Bill?
 
They have come up looking like new nick!
Great work
I think the grooves on those compbrakes were ridiculously big and deep.
Think you stand more chance with the j hooks as you say they are full thickness at the ends.
If you keep killing discs i think you will have to consider those 18's mate.
Whats the biggest disc your caliper will take that fits under an 18?
 
They have come up looking like new nick!
Great work
I think the grooves on those compbrakes were ridiculously big and deep.
Think you stand more chance with the j hooks as you say they are full thickness at the ends.
If you keep killing discs i think you will have to consider those 18's mate.
Whats the biggest disc your caliper will take that fits under an 18?

I have to ask myself how prawny kills breaks when the likes of me and the TT dont..
compbrake ones on badgerwagen working fine.
their groove depths used to me only 0.7mm and wore them out uber fast. they got increased to 1mm so acted like wear indicators.. when gone, they were end of life

For very heavy track use I have not yet seen or come across any setup which is "ever lasting".... Use em to extremes they will overheat and fail..

Drive faster, dont use them so much. :p win win
lols
 
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I reckon he kills you under braking though bill :whistle2:

Plus his car must be heavier than yours
Maybe not the tt??
 
I have to ask myself how prawny kills breaks when the likes of me and the TT dont..

Drive faster, dont use them so much. :p win win
lols


Id like to know that one too Bill :( it's often said that people kill brakes by braking too gently for too long and generating excess heat, but I think you'd probably agree that doesn't sound like me?

I'd really love to know what it I'm doing that kills them SO badly, and how I can perhaps change it.

My only thoughts are the moment are that im carrying an extra 200kg over you and the TT (+100kg car + always have a passenger), and I'm almost always on slicks which do put more stress through everything.

Still, I wish there was a simple answer, apart from drive faster :laugh:


Not expecting any discs to last for ever certainly, I think they'll always be an annual replacement, but I would like to get more than 3 days from a £400 set of discs!

Reylands will get a thorough testing at ADI!
 
The reyland's look like they'll last better for sure, besides anything else, more metal means slower temperature changes and therefore gentler heat cycles in use, which should cause a lot less fatigue and lower peak temperatures. Add that to the lack of stress raisers around the outer edge and the thicker braking surfaces and they should last much better than your old set-up. I'll be interested to hear how you find they cool. I've heard a few times that curved veins don't add much when used on cars with forced cooling anyway. It'd be interesting to know what your wheel well temperatures are doing in a way. One difference between your car and the TT or Bill's is that your wheel wells are a lot more isolated in terms of through flow of air thanks to your splitter set-up. I've mentioned before that I think it'd be good to add some sort of escape route for air from your wheel wells, it might be that it helps brake temps at least a little, not just aero.

If all else fails :whistle2::

26d58ef02014e9408ad32a613dca661a.jpg
 
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Id like to know that one too Bill :( it's often said that people kill brakes by braking too gently for too long and generating excess heat, but I think you'd probably agree that doesn't sound like me?

I'd really love to know what it I'm doing that kills them SO badly, and how I can perhaps change it.

My only thoughts are the moment are that im carrying an extra 200kg over you and the TT (+100kg car + always have a passenger), and I'm almost always on slicks which do put more stress through everything.

Still, I wish there was a simple answer, apart from drive faster :laugh:


Not expecting any discs to last for ever certainly, I think they'll always be an annual replacement, but I would like to get more than 3 days from a £400 set of discs!

Reylands will get a thorough testing at ADI!

as per convo on fb last night, equate those track days to actual Track miles and the numbers speak for themselves.. You dont see racecars beating on their brakes for those miles without replacing wearable items.
 
Nick, just for reference how many miles on track did you get out of those discs across the 3 days?
 
This is apparently to keep weight down, and also apparently they are designed primarily with rally use in mind

lol, they told me their setups where specifically for track only and no way strong enough for rally use

My compbrake 330 rotors also got that surface cracking for while, but the cracking wasn't as extensive or deep though

Worn back to 'clean' metal by the time I'd worn the face down to mm or so from the groove depth
 
Nick, just for reference how many miles on track did you get out of those discs across the 3 days?

I worked it out with Bill last night and they've done around 650 track miles, plus 2 sprints at Curby.

When you look at it that way, it's not so bad. I do hammer the miles out on a track day and do around double what most people do usually.

lol, they told me their setups where specifically for track only and no way strong enough for rally use

My compbrake 330 rotors also got that surface cracking for while, but the cracking wasn't as extensive or deep though

Worn back to 'clean' metal by the time I'd worn the face down to mm or so from the groove depth

Odd how into can get twisted isn't it? It's entirely plausible that my info is wrong, although it came from a very reputable source. Mine had a bit more than surface cracking, you could see daylight through them! :laugh:
 
I know, it's most unfair :laugh:

It's still a lot of fun to try though! :)

Might have to get my BEST set of slicks mounted up. I've been saving a near brand new set for a special occasion :racer:
 
Odd how into can get twisted isn't it? It's entirely plausible that my info is wrong, although it came from a very reputable source. Mine had a bit more than surface cracking, you could see daylight through them! :laugh:

Straight out the mouth of the MD; the 'conversion' was specifically about splitting calipers, but in relation to the whole setups suitability on rally stage terrain

650+ miles, lol.

Thats more than the first 3 WRC stages for 2015 :respekt:

Think about what a rally car goes through vs a track car though ;)
 
Think about what a rally car goes through vs a track car though ;)


That's an interesting point for another discussion.

Whilst I don't claim to know the first thing about rallying, just the concept of 'track use' is a term that covers such a wide array of driving styles and levels of abuse it's unreal.

On the whole, I honestly believe that 90% of 'track cars' out there aren't driven anywhere even close to their capability. I've learnt over the last 4 years to totally ignore most people on groups or forums who say 'these are fine for track use, I use them' as you never really know if they're actually pushing the car to the same level.

These days, I pick and chose who I take advice from far more, and chose to listen only to those who I know have vast experience, or are actually out there doing it and lapping similar / quicker than I am in a similar car, like our friendly forum Badger who's given me vast amounts of help and advice over the past 4-5 years :)

I hope to have an update on the garage in the next few weeks, which hopefully in turn means that I can make some more major changes to the car over winter with somewhere inside to keep it and work on it 'after hours' so to speak :)
 
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"Rally car" is far too generic a term Karl, I'm sure some WRC cars or similar will use ceramics, but your club level astras and the like will be on steel discs just like the rest of us.

Anyway, we've gone off topic :laugh:
 
Proper rally cars (FIA/MSA/BTRDA) use steel discs
 
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