2.0 TDI oil pump / balance shaft failure?

You can re-install the old balance shaft module and not replace the idler gear if:

1) The crankshaft or crankshaft drive gear has not been removed or renewed
2) The idler gear has not been loosened.

This is stated in the Audi factory repair manual (ElsaWin). It's probably presumed that the backlash won't change if the exact same balance shaft module is installed and none of the gears have been changed.

And to this question "Question, can I remove the oil pump to replace the shaft and hex key by removing the sump alone and not having to touch any of the timing belt and accessories (without having to remove the bumper and gubbings)? It is a BRD 170 Quattro"

In theory it's probably possible to replace the balance shaft and hex key without removing the front bumper, but in practice it might be very difficult. The reason is that you have to time the balance shafts to the crankshaft correctly. Normally this is done by locking the crankshaft in TDC with a special locking tool and then locking the balance shafts in a certain position with another special tool when doing the install. This way the timing will be correct. If you don't remove the bumper (and everything else needed to uncover the timing belt and drive gear), you can't lock the crankshaft in TDC. This means you can't use the special locking tool for the BS-unit either.

I suppose you could mark the gear positions very carefully and then get the timing right, but personally I would go the extra mile and do it right (I just did this job before christmas). Removing the bumper and placing the lock carrier into service position is not really that big of job, provided you have a Haynes manual and preferably the WinElsa manual also. And it really pays to read the instructions for the whole job beforehand at least a couple of times (I read them probably 5-10 times :)) so you know exactly what tools and parts you need and what to expect.

And also, it's very handy to do your timing belt at the same time as this job.

- jussi
 
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You can re-install the old balance shaft module and not replace the idler gear if:

1) The crankshaft or crankshaft drive gear has not been removed or renewed
2) The idler gear has not been loosened.

This is stated in the Audi factory repair manual (ElsaWin). It's probably presumed that the backlash won't change if the exact same balance shaft module is installed and none of the gears have been changed.

And to this question "Question, can I remove the oil pump to replace the shaft and hex key by removing the sump alone and not having to touch any of the timing belt and accessories (without having to remove the bumper and gubbings)? It is a BRD 170 Quattro"

In theory it's probably possible to replace the balance shaft and hex key without removing the front bumper, but in practice it might be very difficult. The reason is that you have to time the balance shafts to the crankshaft correctly. Normally this is done by locking the crankshaft in TDC with a special locking tool and then locking the balance shafts in a certain position with another special tool when doing the install. This way the timing will be correct. If you don't remove the bumper (and everything else needed to uncover the timing belt and drive gear), you can't lock the crankshaft in TDC. This means you can't use the special locking tool for the BS-unit either.

I suppose you could mark the gear positions very carefully and then get the timing right, but personally I would go the extra mile and do it right (I just did this job before christmas). Removing the bumper and placing the lock carrier into service position is not really that big of job, provided you have a Haynes manual and preferably the WinElsa manual also. And it really pays to read the instructions for the whole job beforehand at least a couple of times (I read them probably 5-10 times :)) so you know exactly what tools and parts you need and what to expect.

And also, it's very handy to do your timing belt at the same time as this job.

- jussi
So to clarify please, according to audi factory manual I shouldn't really be using an exchange balance shaft to fit in module?

Sorry to be a bit slow :confused:

May as well just complete my humiliation, can you explain what effect backlash would have if I had some, would engine self implode or start vibrating or noise or something else? In other words how would I know if I did have backlash
 
So to clarify please, according to audi factory manual I shouldn't really be using an exchange balance shaft to fit in module?

Sorry to be a bit slow :confused:

May as well just complete my humiliation, can you explain what effect backlash would have if I had some, would engine self implode or start vibrating or noise or something else? In other words how would I know if I did have backlash

Actually, changing the balance shaft which drives the oil pump (via hex key), won't itself have any effect on the backlash. The idler gear is not connected to either of the balance shafts directly, but it is on an axle of its own. It just meshes with the crankshaft and balance shaft gear. The balance shaft which has the drive gear (which meshes with the idler gear previously mentioned), doesn't itself drive the oil pump either. Rather it drives the slave balance shaft via another set of gears (inside the BS-assembly) and the slave balance shaft drives the oil pump. So, in summary changing just the balance shaft, which drives the oil pump shouldn't itself effect the backlash of the idler gear.

If on the other hand you were to change the entire balance shaft assembly, then you would have to replace the idler gear with a new one (with the coating, which sets the backlash).

And the Audi manual doesn't have any information about changing just a balance shaft, because officially you have to change the entire balance shaft module (which seems a bit daft). Audi doesn't even sell any spare parts for the assembly as far as I know. But they do sell the assembly mounting bolts, which should be renewed when doing the job.

I'm not exactly sure of the effect of having an incorrect backlash, but most likely it will result in premature wear and failure of the crankshaft gear, balance shaft gear and/or idler gear. Your engine probably wouldn't implode immediately, but some kind of expensive failure would probably occur at some point in the future. And I have no idea whether or not there would be audible noise or other discernible symptoms from the incorrect backlash.

And no reason to feel humiliated, the questions were entirely jusitified ;)
 
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Thanks Jussis feel a bit more comfortable now. Had my exchange shaft turn up today
 
Are you going to be doing the job yourself or having it done by a garage?
 
Hi guys i have a BPW engine, should these be ok? Reading through these threads gives me nightmares!!!
 
Quote from page 3 of this thread...

"BPW engine code and, therefore, the spur gear oil pump drive - so you should be OK!!"
 
another quote from this thread...

According to ETKA (the Audi parts catalogue), the early BPW (VIN No up to 8E -6-080 171) has the chain drive for the oil pump whilst BPW engines fitted to cars with VIN Nos after 8E -6-080 172 have the gear drive for the oil pump.
 
"quote from page 3 of this thread...

"BPW engine code and, therefore, the spur gear oil pump drive - so you should be OK!!" "

Your're alright in terms of not having the chain driven system, which has a tensioner that fails, causing the chain to slacken, which will eat the sprockets, lower the oil pressure and result in lost oil pressure and engine failure eventually.

But the BPW engines still have hex key problem. Basically the hex key which drives the oil pump wears and starts to slip in the balance shaft. This results in loss of oil pressure. I have the same engine on mine and I just fitted an upgraded balance shaft and new hex key as a precautionary measure. The hex key had already failed once with the previous owner, but luckily he was able to stop the engine quickly without additional damage. He only changed the hex key, which isn't a permanent solution.
 
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"quote from page 3 of this thread...

"BPW engine code and, therefore, the spur gear oil pump drive - so you should be OK!!" "

Your're alright in terms of not having the chain driven system, which has a tensioner that fails, causing the chain to slacken, which will eat the sprockets, lower the oil pressure and result in lost oil pressure and engine failure eventually.

But the BPW engines still have hex key problem. Basically the hex key which drives the oil pump wears and starts to slip in the balance shaft. This results in loss of oil pressure. I have the same engine on mine and I just fitted an upgraded balance shaft and new hex key as a precautionary measure. The hex key had already failed once with the previous owner, but luckily he was able to stop the engine quickly without additional damage. He only changed the hex key, which isn't a permanent solution.

I've got a BPW engine and have put a remanufactured balancer shaft and longer hex shaft as a precautionary measure. When the old one was removed it was worn and I am sure it would have only been a matter of time till it went.
 
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does any body know if there is any place that can change my shaft and key preferably supply and fit around the area of RAF Coningsby ( LN4 4SY ) as I am due to go on a course there next month and could try and tie it in with getting this done?
 
Not happy, I've just seen the shaft that's come out of my balance shaft unit, 90k miles and it's perfect not a sign of wear/play at all. The key was replaced about 5k miles ago for harder one and that old key had some wear on it which leads me to believe that it's not the hex key hole in shaft but the hex key itself that's the problem with these.

£350 down for no reason, suppose I have price of mind now (kmb shaft in place) and can relax when driving the dam money pit.
 
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Like you say mate at least its done now and you have piece of mind. I am now defo getting it sooner rather than later just trying to find somewhere to do it and with me being at lossiemouth it is hard finding somewhere to get it done local.
 
Yeah just to rub salt into my wounds also had the turbo replaced today as precaution before impending remap. They just showed me it and guess what, "not sure why you're changing this mate it's in perfect condition" doh, it's just not my day is it. Anyone want to buy a used bv43 turbo !!!!?
 
Can i ask who supplied and fitted the balance shaft for £350? When i priced up the job it was around £650 all in.
 
Can i ask who supplied and fitted the balance shaft for £350? When i priced up the job it was around £650 all in.

£225 for kmb shaft plus £125 labour at midland VW. Having turbo fitted at same time so is a lot cheaper than it normally would be.

I have had a lot of work done here so they did say they would sort me out on this.
 
£125, thats a great price, atleast you havent paid £420 for the labour like ive been quoted!
 
MB services ( the ones kmb recommend ) just above Sheffield charge £350.

Which do you have, is it gear driven or are you having a conversion fom chain
 
Yes, contacted them a few weeks ago. I wish i was handy with the spanners, would save me a fortune!
 
Get on the blower to midland VW ask for jody. He will try to talk you out of doing it unless it's actually failed ( as he did with myself, I wish I listened now!!!) but will do it if you insist. They can modify the shafts themselves but we're happy to fit the kmb one i had. Like I say was cheaper as its being done same time as other work and oil / oil filter change
 
Cheers mate, just had a look on google maps and midland vw is just over an hour away from me...how long does it take them to change just the hex drive?
 
Btw I did mention the £350+ vat cost to him and his reply was to laugh and say not sure where these garages get there pricing from? So I imagine that his price for full job is not going to be as much as that by any means
 
Sure you are aware but which ever you choose requires sump off so oil and filter change cost needs to be considered.
 
Yes, only changed oil and filter less than 2k miles as well!
 
Well I'm doing my 4th oil pump conversion at work on a 2.0Tdi now

The first was on my own car just for pre caution and I'm glad of it! (BRD)

2nd on a 2005 A6 BRE TDi 60k turbo was ok

3rd on a 2006 A6 BRE 2.0 TDi 140k Killed Turbo

4th on a 2008 A4 Cabby 2.0 TDi 75k Killed turbo unsure engine code


Doing my 4th and I noticed the sump had been off before

And look what I found

Turbo is dead
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1422405548345426


The balancer shaft without the ring is from the 2nd oil pump conversion I did, the one with the ring around the balancer shaft is the one I'm currently doing

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1422405607431572


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ImageUploadedByTapatalk1422405663498909



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As you can see the balancer shaft with the ring around it is actually re engineered
Yes it is the one I ripped out of the one that has done 75k on it

I highly recommend doing a 1.9 conversion instead of re engineering the pump.

I'm now sure who the previous owner is as its a customers car and also I'm not sure who re engineered it as I'm pretty sure pro max in Ireland extend the Allen key way and this one that has been re engineered has the same length Allen key way as a genuine one so I can't comment on if it was pro max.

Pm me in the Birmingham area of you are interested in a oil pump conversion
 

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The balancer shaft without the ring is from the 2nd oil pump conversion I did, the one with the ring around the balancer shaft is the one I'm currently doing

As you can see the balancer shaft with the ring around it is actually re engineered
Yes it is the one I ripped out of the one that has done 75k on it

I highly recommend doing a 1.9 conversion instead of re engineering the pump.

I'm now sure who the previous owner is as its a customers car and also I'm not sure who re engineered it as I'm pretty sure pro max in Ireland extend the Allen key way and this one that has been re engineered has the same length Allen key way as a genuine one so I can't comment on if it was pro max.

Pm me in the Birmingham area of you are interested in a oil pump conversion


Hi Darren,

just to be clear - the shaft on the right (with solid key and gold ring around keyway) has been remanufactured...yes ?

There is no wear on the solid (and presumably hardened - photo 498909) hex key....yes ?

Are you saying the remanufactured "keyway" is worn ?

Apologies for questions but thats what happens when I check the forums before breakfast :)

.
 
Hi Guys,
I have tried to speak to Audi now on 2 occasions to see if they can tell me what set up my car has , they say they can't tell me .
Mine is a 2007 56 plate BRE 140.
The no DPF one, it's had a remap B4 I bought it and I've done 115k so far full sudi servicing apart from 3 before I owned it. Could anyone tell me what mines got ?
Reg number can be supplied by PM,
Thanks,
Si
 
Hi Darren,

just to be clear - the shaft on the right (with solid key and gold ring around keyway) has been remanufactured...yes ?

There is no wear on the solid (and presumably hardened - photo 498909) hex key....yes ?

Are you saying the remanufactured "keyway" is worn ?

Apologies for questions but thats what happens when I check the forums before breakfast :)

.
Yes the key way is worn and the hex shaft has slight wear on it
 
Hi Guys,
I have tried to speak to Audi now on 2 occasions to see if they can tell me what set up my car has , they say they can't tell me .
Mine is a 2007 56 plate BRE 140.
The no DPF one, it's had a remap B4 I bought it and I've done 115k so far full sudi servicing apart from 3 before I owned it. Could anyone tell me what mines got ?
Reg number can be supplied by PM,
Thanks,
Si
Guessing wise not a chain drive driven pump as they are fitted on earlier ones up to 56 I heard
 
Thanks for the reply mate ,
So I should be ok then ?
Apart from dropping ghe dump no other way to tell from chassis number or anything ?
The gear unit still has problems with the balancer shaft

If I remember correctly
Earlier models with chain and balancer shaft issues

Later models had problems with balancer shaft

There is a way to tell with the dip stick if you have a search on the forum
 
Just to add to this thread. My mates 2000 registered A4 1.8t suffered with a failed oil pump last week. Took out the entire engine by cracking the head gasket.

Didn't know this problem was with petrol models?