Best upgraded in tank fuel pump

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Jenno007

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Hi guys,
I'm quite sure my standard fuel pump is struggling a little as when I try and start with 1/4 a tank the engine needs to turn over a few times before it fires up. I have read here how that can be a sign of the fuel pump going.

Since I want to go hybrid in the future I'm considering either.

A) upgrade standard pump to a high flow pump so I don't need to upgrade when I go hybrid.

B) replace with oem pump and when I go hybrid install an inline pump where the fuel filter goes. I see badger 5 sells some clips that make installing an inline pump really simple.

I prefer option A to be honest but I want to know if there are any in tank pumps that will just slot in and not need much/any modifying. Most of the threads just end up recommending an in line pump, but since I need to replace the current pump I would prefer not to have to get the in line pump as well.

Just after your thoughts on this. Cheers.
 
Option B...

Regardless of future plans you need a stable in tank pump... These are old cars and they are starting to fail... Have seen a fair few recently...

Even though I run an inline pump I am still planning to replace the intent... I am under no illusion that it's on borrowed time...

A question I get asked a lot these days is "my intank is failing shall I just fit an inline pump".... To which I reply Fitting an inline is not a cure for an intank that failing... A failing pump is still a failing pump...

I realise this is not what you asked but it's relevant and others will read this thread so just needed to get it out there :)

<tuffty/>
 
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... There is no real upgrade to the quattro intank either regardless of the interneterised info out there... They generally suffer from pick up issues when lower than half a tank... OE pump is a 4bar one out the box... Read the pump replacement thread in the FAQs and then just replace the intank with a normal pump and be a happy chappy...

<tuffty/>
 
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<tuffty/> said:
Option B...

Regardless of future plans you need a stable in tank pump... These are old cars and they are starting to fail... Have seen a fair few recently...

Even though I run an inline pump I am still planning to replace the intent... I am under no illusion that it's on borrowed time...

A question I get asked a lot these days is "my intank is failing shall I just fit an inline pump".... To which I reply Fitting an inline is not a cure for an intank that failing... A failing pump is still a failing pump...

I realise this is not what you asked but it's relevant and others will read this thread so just needed to get it out there :)

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

I was reading through your post thinking you had completely misunderstood until the last line :p

Can I ask why you wouldn't go for an upgraded intake pump to replace the OEM one that is likely to go sometime soon. Since it needs replacing why not put a better one so you don't need an inline pump? It just seems like less work. I have changed the fuel filter before so I think installing an inline pump would be very easy work, just maybe not necessary?

Also I completely understand that if I get an inline pump I'll still need to replace the intank pump, that much is obvious.

EDIT: Sorry didn't see your second post..

Do you know much about the genesis "upgraded" pump?
 
The link in the FAQs says that there are two fuel pumps, I think I read you post somewhere else that there is only one? Maybe edit that so people aren't confused in future?
 
Jenno007 said:
I was reading through your post thinking you had completely misunderstood until the last line :p

Can I ask why you wouldn't go for an upgraded intake pump to replace the OEM one that is likely to go sometime soon. Since it needs replacing why not put a better one so you don't need an inline pump? It just seems like less work. I have changed the fuel filter before so I think installing an inline pump would be very easy work, just maybe not necessary?

Also I completely understand that if I get an inline pump I'll still need to replace the intank pump, that much is obvious.

EDIT: Sorry didn't see your second post..

Do you know much about the genesis "upgraded" pump?
Click to expand...
As already stated and stated in the link to usrt it's fwd only. No one I am aware of makes one for quattro cars hence the online option taken by everyone. Some on hybrids manage to get away with a new oem pump assuming they are low 300s.
 
Okay I will follow your advice and replace it with an OEM pump. I did a quick search on eBay for the product number (993-745-117Z) and found this:

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/VDO-AUDI...r_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item23380ecf21

It is from Riga, Latvia (never heard of the place) which worries me... Does it seem okay to you guys?

It costs $170 + $20 shipping which is a lot cheaper than the next cheapest $250 + $20 from the UK. They look identical however...

I know the saying is buy cheap buy twice but to me it looks like I'm getting the exact same thing for cheaper.

Yay or Nay?
 
Jenno that pump wont work with the s3 pump housing properly, its for FWD and the quattro pumps have 2 pick ups for the split tank.

The only correct drop in pump seems to be the new Deatchwerks pump specifically for 4wd pumps. That flows 265lph.

Forget a pump flowing bars, its measured in LPH. Litres per hour.
Stock S3 pump flows 110LPH
Stock A3 pump flows 90LPH

You can use a generic intank pump and modify your stock housing to accept it or just go for an inline pump which is less messy
 
antwan64og said:
Jenno that pump wont work with the s3 pump housing properly, its for FWD and the quattro pumps have 2 pick ups for the split tank.

The only correct drop in pump seems to be the new Deatchwerks pump specifically for 4wd pumps. That flows 265lph.

Forget a pump flowing bars, its measured in LPH. Litres per hour.
Stock S3 pump flows 110LPH
Stock A3 pump flows 90LPH

You can use a generic intank pump and modify your stock housing to accept it or just go for an inline pump which is less messy
Click to expand...

Thanks for your reply. I'm guessing your comments are about the Genesis pump? I have decided against that now that I realise it won't fit my S3.

Just had a look at the pump you mention. http://www.deatschwerks.com/products/fuel-pumps/9-655-1025-detail

I must say, I like the idea of that then I won't need an inline pump in future, I'm just worried about fuel starvation. Can you comment on the reliability of them? Everyone above seems to think an inline pump is the go.
 
Its recommended for race cars to always have 2 pumps as extra insurance.....

A new OEM pump should suit your purposes well.
If you need more fuel than that then you'll probably be needing forged rods too so the price of an inline fuel pump will be a drop in the ocean
 
I have no intentions of chasing 500hp so that isn't an issue. I will be getting forged rods before I even get a stage 1 map, so it isn't really about the cost of an inline fuel pump (although I save money where I can). I think it is more about the fact there will be wires underneath the car.. I am currently viewing tuffty's thread (aka the modifying bible) to see how he has installed it.

Also if there are two options that give the same result, I will take the easier option. But the fact you mention two pumps as extra insurance has me leaning towards oem + inline. Also I can't find any reviews on the Deatchwerks.

Tell me antwan64og, since you have obviously heard of the Deatchwerks before, if you were chasing say 300-400 hp (well within it's capabilities), would you go for that or the OEM + inline.
 
Well if you're going for the inline option then most everyone would advise you renew your OEM pump anyway if its old as most are tired after 100,000 miles.

The fuel pump lottery is anyones guess. You'll find numerous stories of the Walboro 255 pump failing but that doesn't tell you about all the 1000's thst don't fail.

Personally I chose an ITP331 intank pump made by Sytec for my FWD A3. Sytec and Walboro are the same so I get the pros/cons with that.

For reliability and cost not an issue a new OEM pump and an inline pump looks like a good bet.
 
Well as it sits I'm currently going for either
a) new OEM + inline down the track when I go hybrid
b) Deatchwerks now and then that should cover me for a hybrid

Since you first mentioned the Deatchwerks I thought I would ask you what you thought, but to be honest I think I will be going OEM + inline as it is what everyone is recommending, but I really like the idea of buying an intank pump now and that will cover me for the future.
 
bit the bullet and brought the Deatchwerks. I decided I will give it a go, if I don't like it I can always get an OEM pump. But if it lives up to it's hype I shouldn't need an inline pump in future when chasing more power. Once it is fitted I will do some tests so when people are in this situation in the future, they can decide what course of action to take
 
Jenno007 said:
bit the bullet and brought the Deatchwerks. I decided I will give it a go, if I don't like it I can always get an OEM pump. But if it lives up to it's hype I shouldn't need an inline pump in future when chasing more power. Once it is fitted I will do some tests so when people are in this situation in the future, they can decide what course of action to take
Click to expand...
Good read in this thread. I have now linked the fuel pump site so please can you update here and let us know how easy it is to fit and if there are any issues.

I'm going hybrid myself so was going to ask the exact same question lol.
 
The Deatchwerks pumps have a 3yr no fault guarantee so you're covered from that point.
They do a 300LPH intank pump for the Evo 10 and they've been shown to reliably support 600whp.

At least its another option for S3 owners anyway
 
Callum-TT said:
Good read in this thread. I have now linked the fuel pump site so please can you update here and let us know how easy it is to fit and if there are any issues.

I'm going hybrid myself so was going to ask the exact same question lol.
Click to expand...

I will, the website has installation instructions and I had a quick read through them. It looks like a really easy job, they even mention priming the pump which the thread in the FAQs doesn't. So it seems quite detailed.

antwan64og said:
The Deatchwerks pumps have a 3yr no fault guarantee so you're covered from that point.
They do a 300LPH intank pump for the Evo 10 and they've been shown to reliably support 600whp.

At least its another option for S3 owners anyway
Click to expand...

I have no doubt about their flow, the only concern I have is the pickup when I have a low tank of fuel, and under hard cornering.

Just say I have the throttle floored and there isn't enough fuel getting to the engine, can the ECU detect this through Lambda or any other means and go into limp mode to protect the engine?
 
Aslong as the pumps uses tge stock pick up points starvation shouldn't be an issue any more than with a stock pump.

People had issues with starvation with FWD VAG MK4's when they tried running a Walboro 255 intank with a filter sock flapping about in there.

The stock style pump housing has a mini surge pot of fuel, the car uses this reservoir first under hard cornering regardless of what the rest of the fuel in the tank is sloshing about doing.

Its not really recommended to run any fuel tank low with an intank pump since its designed so the fuel sloshing about cools the fuel pump.
 
Ah I didn't know that, I usually fill at a 1/4 a tank regardless. Thank you for the information.

Does anyone have any idea why when your fuel pump is starting to go, the engine needs to turn over a few times before it will fire up on a low tank. Obviously fuel is draining from the engine when the car is off, but why does this only happen on a low tank? And how is this a sign of the fuel pump going. I would have thought it would either work or not, no middle ground.
 
antwan64og said:
Jenno that pump wont work with the s3 pump housing properly, its for FWD and the quattro pumps have 2 pick ups for the split tank.

The only correct drop in pump seems to be the new Deatchwerks pump specifically for 4wd pumps. That flows 265lph.

Forget a pump flowing bars, its measured in LPH. Litres per hour.
Stock S3 pump flows 110LPH
Stock A3 pump flows 90LPH

You can use a generic intank pump and modify your stock housing to accept it or just go for an inline pump which is less messy
Click to expand...

flow output will depend on pressure head its pumping against of course. The the 110lph at 3bar pressure and 13.8v? There's usually a table showing their output but I have never seen one for an S3 std in tank pump.

An S3 pump on low duty (in filling a swirl pot install like badgerwagen) delivers at 13.8v a healthy 3.3l/m (198l/h) but this is of course no load.
 
Data i found online shows that
Oem pump MK4 S3/TT225 Pump
PSI bar LPH LPH
40 0.9 91 111
45 1.0 82 103
50 1.1 75 93
55 1.3 70 86
60 1.4 61 95
65 1.5 52 90
70 1.6 44 83


Fot the Sytec pump that drops into FWD MK4 cars ITP331

Sytec ITP331 OE LPH
1 Bar @ 3.8 L/Min 228
2 Bar @ 3.5 L/Min 210
3 Bar @ 3.25 L/Min 195
4 Bar @ 2.9 L/min 174
5 Bar @ 2.7 L/min 162
6 Bar @ 2 L/Min 120
Lock Out @ 7 Bar
 
Last edited:
Guys if the fuel supply cuts out while you're boosting, will the ecu go into limp more or will you lean out and ruin your engine?
 
antwan64og said:
Data i found online shows that

Oem pump MK4 S3/TT225 Pump
PSI bar LPH LPH
40 0.9 91 111
45 1.0 82 103
50 1.1 75 93
55 1.3 70 86
60 1.4 61 95
65 1.5 52 90
70 1.6 44 83
Click to expand...


I don't get this first table... 40psi = 0.9bar? I thought 1bar was ~ 14.5psi?

should I not be comparing these numbers like for like?
 
I don't fully understand it either, but I think it has something to do with the pressure of your fuel pressure regulator? But the first table also has two LPH figures... Very confusing
 
Jenno007 said:
But the first table also has two LPH figures... Very confusing
Click to expand...

I think that's due to the fact that the forum cant do tables properly, the first LPH is the flow of the normal A3/Mk4 golf I think and then the next column is for the S3/TT pump.....I think
 
The car splutters and stalls if you run out of fuel normally, like when you run the tank dry but if you are at wide open throttle like on a dyno and the pump dies it has been know to melt pistons.



Alex C said:
I don't get this first table... 40psi = 0.9bar? I thought 1bar was ~ 14.5psi?

should I not be comparing these numbers like for like?
Click to expand...


Sorry the forum messed up formatting

See the data halfway down the page for the Genesis Mk4 Pump its a repackaged TT225/S3 pump

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?4946130-REFERENCE-1.8t-Fuel-Lines-Fueling-FAQ

The other table was from another source, pretty sure the Bar reference is the boost shown in car during that testing.
 
Last edited:
Ah so if your fuel pump dies while WOT you're in a world of trouble :/
I don't think I'll be flooring my car until I've got the new pump..
 
any updates on the deatschwerks pump?

and I see numerous figures concerning S3 8L fuel pump flow.
If we agree that Bosch 044 is 300 lph, Audi S3 oem Fuel pump is ...?
 
I didn't want to get any updates yet because I'm having starting issues, and I'm thinking I haven't correctly seated the pump in the housing. This week I'm going to try refit the pump and hopefully that will fix it. My car has run a lot better though. When I go hybrid that will be the real test though
 
When the car is left overnight, I'm pretty sure fuel is draining out of the fuel rail. I get a stutter when I start the car in mornings. Playing with the pump today.. Hope it fixes it
 
Little test... Turn on ignition, count out 5 seconds then start engine... is this any better?

<tuffty/>
 
<tuffty/> said:
Little test... Turn on ignition, count out 5 seconds then start engine... is this any better?

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...
Exact same result. Car starts almost straight away, stutters, then idles fine.

I played around with the fuel pump housing today and then drove the car around the block, left it for a couple of hours, went to start the car and it turned over for a quite while then eventually fired into life.

Next time I will let it prime and see how it starts. I was devastated that it didn't just start straight away with how long I was playing with it today. I think I need to buy some proper crimping pliers and new fuel hose and try again...
 
Otherwise I'll buy a new pump and housing, then just get an inline pump when I get a bigger turbo.

Must admit, I'm a little upset about what you think/your experience of the CTS turbo kit. Although it's pricey, I was hoping I could get that and not have to worry about anything. Build the engine, bolt everything on, install an after market ecu, custom exhaust, custom tune and have a fast car!

I looked at the websites you recommended and it seems like I'll need to get a bit of fabrication for the downpipe and hot side piping given that the turbo won't sit in the same spot as the standard turbo
 
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