Some R&D Info to Show What we Yanks are Doing

slappy_dunbar · Dec 19, 2014

A number of members here know FrankenTurbo. We're the hybrid turbo company that does business over in the Americas (not so much here in the UK, but I'm fine with that). For years I've kept a close eye on what you folks there try on your platform, and have learned a good bit. But I'm a tinkerer myself -- that's what got me into this racket -- and we conduct a bit of our own experimentation from time to time as well. So I thought I'd share what we're doing and welcome members' responses.

For starters, I'm going to address the common perception that our "numbers" are somehow immaterial because they come from us, using our cars on our equipment. Well, it's true that we measure power to the wheels and we use the American-made DynoJet system, neither of which practices translate well to Europeans. But I can do at least ONE thing: and that's show you how one of your cars performs on our test equipment. So take a look here and tell me if you see a car that might surprise you:

You're seeing correctly. That's a LHD European spec S3 with a BAM engine. And it's being baselined on its stock K04. The numbers to the wheels came in at 281tq/230hp. That's a good result from a K04 car, especially in light of the warm summer conditions. Here are the data logs we collected during the test:

The warm ambient air had its impact on maximum airflows, but overall the car delivered power right in line with what I'd expect. A chipped S3 is good for 230 wheel horsepower. That's our Americanized interpretation of it anyway.

So I'm going to put this test forward as a baseline for comparison as we move forward with testing. Whether people in this thread feel the numerical value is accurate matters less than having a reference point. And so I'm starting with that.

Thx

antwan64og · Dec 19, 2014

Show us what you got !

Hows the big twin pass FMIC holding up? Conventional thinking was that the pancake pipe was a choke point

Jenno007 · Dec 20, 2014

Any chance you could do a dyno run with one of the software packages you offer, without any tweaks to the software. Just so we can see what results you can get out of the box

antwan64og · Dec 20, 2014

Jenno007 said:
Any chance you could do a dyno run with one of the software packages you offer, without any tweaks to the software. Just so we can see what results you can get out of the box

FYI they do hardware packages and you can include software to match that hardware, so its not comparable really jenno

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F23.html

beachbuggy · Dec 20, 2014

If you want to base line it, why not run a stock map from a euro bam on the car, dyno it then post the results because your chipped map is very subjective still.

I get your point, but an original map base line is a far better starting point than a tuned one that "could" be made to fit..

And as this in the Uk and for comparison itll be a truer refection to measure..

Jenno007 · Dec 20, 2014

antwan64og said:
FYI they do hardware packages and you can include software to match that hardware, so its not comparable really jenno

http://www.frankenturbo.com/new/F23.html

That's exactly what I'm talking about... I want to see the results of those packages using the software provided without any adjustments to the software so you know what it's like "out of the box" so to speak. For us who cannot get a custom tune

antwan64og · Dec 20, 2014

Jenno007 said:
That's exactly what I'm talking about... I want to see the results of those packages using the software provided without any adjustments to the software so you know what it's like "out of the box" so to speak. For us who cannot get a custom tune

If you get tge Eurodyne package you can tweak it yourself.....
http://www.eurodyne.ca/shop/volkswagen/stage-3-maestro-tuning-suite-awp/

Jenno007 · Dec 20, 2014

antwan64og said:
If you get tge Eurodyne package you can tweak it yourself.....
http://www.eurodyne.ca/shop/volkswagen/stage-3-maestro-tuning-suite-awp/

Reread what I said... I want to know what results you can get WITHOUT any tweaking.

Obviously being able to tweak the tune is a bonus, but it's nice to know what you get from the base f23 tune without having to do anything

slappy_dunbar · Dec 21, 2014

beachbuggy said:
If you want to base line it, why not run a stock map from a euro bam on the car, dyno it then post the results because your chipped map is very subjective still.

...an original map base line is a far better starting point than a tuned one that "could" be made to fit..

And as this in the Uk and for comparison itll be a truer refection to measure..

Look, I understand this thread is subject to a form of peer review process. In the scientific community a paper is written, published & reviewed. Some readers see the merits, others see the flaws. But flawed or not, the dyno reading and the associated data logs serve as a good reference point. I consider that information to be a solid basis for comparison. And I have to go with my own standards on this because frankly I want to move forward, rather than chase theoretical ideals. That's not to say I discourage others from testing with their own standards. In fact, I encourage it.

Anyway, I'd like to kick things off by addressing this question:

antwan64og said:
Hows the big twin pass FMIC holding up? Conventional thinking was that the pancake pipe was a choke point

This makes me think you've been following our test results for our Mk4 test car. Dubbed the "FrankenWagen" it is a 2002, wide-band ECU, VW Jetta. While not quite as easy on the eyes as an A3 or S3, it does share a good bit of mechanical commonality. So I set out to answer a question that I've been asked countless times: "Hey, what mods do I need to support [your] hybrid turbo?" And given the fact this Jetta was delivered to us in bone-stock form, we had a clean slate to work from. Here is what we had to say about our work on another forum:

I wanted to see just how cheaply you can get performance modding done. So we shopped for a Mk4 in decent shape, and settled on this little number:

No, not the 1000+ hp monster on the lift back there! It's the black stallion smack dab in the middle of the picture! Say hello to the FrankenWagen. It's a 2002 Mk4 Jetta, bone stock, with an AWP motor and 5spd manual. It came from the factory with a BorgWarner K03-052 turbo, also known as the K03s.

OK, let's start with an exhaust system. And if needs to be cheap, well there's no better place than Ebay for that. For example, here's a good one:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/390677908210

A full turbo back system for only a whisker more than two hundred bucks? Done!

So what else can we do? How about an intercooler? Well, we've certainly done plenty of testing of various intercoolers over the years, and we haven't shied away from cheap ones. Here's one I was particularly impressed by on our Franken-TT test car:

And this bad-boy is cheap. Here is is for less than two hundred, again on Ebay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CXRacing-Universal-25x11x3-1-Side-2-5-Inlet-Outlet-Turbo-Intercooler-Mustang-/251248916558?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a7f9a384e

Sold!

So we've now spent $400 on the upgrades. Let's find out how they work. For that we asked our friends at ForceFed Engineering to keep an open mind and start wrenching. Here's the exhaust beside the stock system:

In it goes...

As you can see in that last picture, the system sits a bit askew in the exhaust chase, but otherwise, an hour's installation work nets us our first modification.

Next came the intercooler. This is a large unit, necessitating removal of almost all of the crash bar for the bumper. Since the test car is for off road use, that's not an issue. But for any daily driver, that's a consideration. Fair warning on that. Here goes the install:

ForceFed's Ed Wolsey knew the installation had to be simple and inexpensive. One big advantage at work was the "Same-Side" configuration of the intercooler. The proximity of this intercooler's ports to stock meant we could keep the piping very close to stock. Only the pancake pipe and the rubber hose feeding it was removed. Ed's piping connected right up to the stock turbo outlet pipe and to the stock throttle body inlet hose.

And here sits the FrankenWagen, all ready for the dyno:

Total costs of the mods so far? Well, allowing for about $200 in charge piping, we're looking at a big fat $600 from factory stock. Not too bad for a <$4000 car. But what about the power potential? That gets covered in our next post.

At that point the car still had its stock K03 turbo and stock ECU. So before we put it on the dyno we arranged for tuning support from a couple of the companies we work with over here. One of them, Eurodyne, is sort of known in Europe. The other, Motoza, focuses on North American-market cars only. When we tested the two companies' K03 software, our results kicked up a pretty good fuss on vwvortex. The car performed very, very well with these cheap modifications. And it clearly was well-prepared for increased boost. Here's the link to the thread...and the lively discussion it caused:

http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...owdown-Showcase!-Eurodyne-Stg2-vs-Motoza-Stg1

Jenno007 · Dec 22, 2014

Geez Doug I don't know how you do it, but you always manage to get a lot of upset people in your threads voicing their opinions

Just curious, you said you did a little bit of tweaking with the eurodyne. How long did you spend tweaking the timing and boost?

slappy_dunbar · Dec 22, 2014

Jenno007 said:
Geez Doug I don't know how you do it, but you always manage to get a lot of upset people in your threads voicing their opinions

That's me. The provocateur.

Jenno007 said:
Just curious, you said you did a little bit of tweaking with the eurodyne. How long did you spend tweaking the timing and boost?

That base file was actually quite close to what I'd want. It had a slight dip in boost after onset, but that would likely smooth out with some adaptations. I will warn you, though, I don't believe Maestro is compatible with wide-band 180hp European cars :chargrined:

. But I am told a handful of BAM-engine vehicles are using it. It's a shame there isn't some equivalent for Europe. This level of tuning capability is great for the enthusiast-level user. Anyway, it's lucky for you guys that the independent tuners there in the UK take up that slack.

Jenno007 · Dec 22, 2014

Haha I'm in Australia so I'm out of luck for a custom tune without a piggyback or equivalent

antwan64og · Dec 22, 2014

slappy_dunbar said:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...owdown-Showcase!-Eurodyne-Stg2-vs-Motoza-Stg1

Urggh...... too much drama over there Doug.

A full 3" exhaust, Wellycooler, ko3s with Xs-power manifold was tuned to 221whp by our resident skeptic recently
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/relentless-ko3-manifold.231716/

Keep the testing going Doug

badger5 · Dec 22, 2014

antwan64og said:
Urggh...... too much drama over there Doug.

A full 3" exhaust, Wellycooler, ko3s with Xs-power manifold was tuned to 221whp by our resident skeptic recently
http://www.audi-sport.net/xf/threads/relentless-ko3-manifold.231716/

Keep the testing going Doug

Resident sceptic.. lol
Realistic tester of products, no BS approach you mean

lol

antwan64og · Dec 24, 2014

slappy_dunbar said:
I'd much rather discuss positive things such as what's possible on K03-framed turbos. Who else thinks this thread could be good for that?

So Doug talking ko3 frame....

Biggest I can find available is with a billet 2283 compressor and TFSI turbine

The ko4 hybrid testing from a few years ago showed that cars usually surged with the bigger turbines.
There was one exception, Welly.

He had the huge 600mm FMIC (now known as the wellycooler) , a large port head and a free flowing 3" exhaust. This set up could breathe enough at low RPM to prevent surge without an unclipped turbine.

So following on from that.....
Do you think the above turbo would work (clipped turbine or not) with a ported wastegate if coupled with:
Large 600mm FMIC with 63mm piping
Free flowing ko3 manifold
3" exhaust
Large port head

Or you could add in large plenum intake manifold and cams to increase VE

On the flipside at what point does it become a mute point that you have a ko3 framed turbo if you have to modify the car that much to utilise the ko3 turbo when a T25/T3 set up may be comparable in cost.

Happy Christmas

beachbuggy · Dec 24, 2014

Few facts to set straight.

Compressors surge not turbines.

Clipped turbine only supressed spool past surge point before peak boost.

2283 in a k03 framed turbo is pointless, not and not needed as no benefit.

Porting the wastegate plays no benefit either, once its open enough to stop creep its doing its job, its there to control boost by venting pressure away from the turbine, so whether its 3mm open on a 22mm WG or 1mm on a 26mm its still releasing the same pressure/volume to maintain the turbine speed to make the required..

Im sure wellys surged but was mapped around..

antwan64og · Dec 24, 2014

beachbuggy said:
2283 in a k03 framed turbo is pointless, not and not needed as no benefit

Can you elaborate?

beachbuggy · Dec 25, 2014

You can get better results with a smaller wheel. . Just cos u can fit a 2283 doesn't mean it's the best..

superkarl · Dec 25, 2014

Dan do you not reduce pressure on the turbine itself with a larger wastegate, internal and external?
like the same way larger downpipe is generally better?

are you saying pressure at/in the turbine is the same regardless?

slappy_dunbar · Dec 26, 2014

antwan64og said:
So Doug talking ko3 frame....

Biggest I can find available is with a billet 2283 compressor and TFSI turbine

The ko4 hybrid testing from a few years ago showed that cars usually surged with the bigger turbines.
There was one exception, Welly.

He had the huge 600mm FMIC (now known as the wellycooler) , a large port head and a free flowing 3" exhaust. This set up could breathe enough at low RPM to prevent surge without an unclipped turbine.

So following on from that.....
Do you think the above turbo would work (clipped turbine or not) with a ported wastegate if coupled with:
Large 600mm FMIC with 63mm piping
Free flowing ko3 manifold
3" exhaust
Large port head

Or you could add in large plenum intake manifold and cams to increase VE

On the flipside at what point does it become a mute point that you have a ko3 framed turbo if you have to modify the car that much to utilise the ko3 turbo when a T25/T3 set up may be comparable in cost.

Happy Christmas

We've tried a variety of intercoolers, intake/exhaust cams & intake manifolds. We posted about that on the vortex when testing the "FrankenTT". Logs showed measurable improvements, but not what I'd describe as successful remedies. No, the first and best solution is to tune for boost levels that are supportable by the compressor wheel. The second best solution is to struggle for years testing different wheels/rotors until you get something that approaches what you'd call surge control.

superkarl said:
Dan do you not reduce pressure on the turbine itself with a larger wastegate, internal and external?
like the same way larger downpipe is generally better?

are you saying pressure at/in the turbine is the same regardless?

In my opinion -- at my current level of understanding things -- the wastegate specification is irrelevant so long as it properly controls the amount of work being done by the turbine rotor. Big or small valve, strong or weak spring, short or long rod travel... it doesn't really matter how a designer "tunes" the wastegate. It just has to be able to sufficiently control the turbo.

Now here's one dynamic that I'll admit goes over my head. Laminarity of flow. You see, I expect there is a way to calibrate the wastegate and turbine rotor for a maximal amount of work with a minimum amount of back-pressure. And that's by making the flow through the hot-side as laminar as possible. Smooth and organized versus turbulent. But really the common-sense approach is to simply re-size the turbine housing itself, which obviously will improve the efficiency of flow as exhaust masses increase.

antwan64og · Dec 26, 2014

slappy_dunbar said:
Now here's one dynamic that I'll admit goes over my head. Laminarity of flow. You see, I expect there is a way to calibrate the wastegate and turbine rotor for a maximal amount of work with a minimum amount of back-pressure. And that's by making the flow through the hot-side as laminar as possible. Smooth and organized versus turbulent. But really the common-sense approach is to simply re-size the turbine housing itself, which obviously will improve the efficiency of flow as exhaust masses increase.

These little turbos don't seem to exhibit traditional surge as such, like if you put a huge compressor wheel with a small turbine like with a GT2876r, where part throttle surges.

At a guess the tiny 41mm ko3 turbine inlet limits turbine flow creating back pressure and EGTs before the actual size of the wheel becomes a restriction. What that turbine inlet limits power theoretically to is anyones guess though, 350hp on pump gas??
A t25 turbo can go to 600hp in pump gas at a push, the ko3 turbine inlet is 62% of a t25 so 62% of 600hp is 372hp. Not far off the 350hp guess thats nearly been reached
If that guess is correct whats really needed is a turbo/manifold with a larger t25/t3 turbine inlet flange and a ko3 turbine outlet in the stock location so the existing exhaust could be used.

beachbuggy · Dec 26, 2014

I think you can write a whole thesis on this subject!

Laminar flow is a massive subject which in terms of smooth air flow is quite relevant and the less turbulent you can make the flow the better but it is only applicable to the first layer (less than 1mm) of gas on a surface. Possibly the biggest influence of such in the turbine housing is the ridge over the wasgate port and entry to the turbine.. do you go for a knife edge which is good a high speed or a rounded edge which is good at slow speed? Ideally you have an external wastagate and straight through venturi to turbine. The most modern designs have a vortex shape leading to the turbine allowing a single point jet of gas to strike the turbine.. very modern turbine housings can adjust this vortex internally to allow a variable jet for low gas speeds at low rpm and high gas speeds and high rpm.

Remember k03 might be 62% of the t25 inlet but its the total volume not just the inlet which dictates the overall performance, k03/k04 and rs6 all running a tfsi turbine all have very similar inlets but increasing scroll volume, 300/330/370bhp (22%bhp increase) this is the key.

If you made a k03 with k04 or rs6 scroll it wouldnt matter what inlet you have..

slappy_dunbar · Dec 26, 2014

antwan64og said:
...whats really needed is a turbo/manifold with a larger t25/t3 turbine inlet flange and a ko3 turbine outlet in the stock location so the existing exhaust could be used.

Why? Why is there a "need" for a larger turbine inlet? The K04-spec casting is a great match to the 1.8T engine. It can be machined to 47 or more millimeters of opening size. That's bigger than what a 2.5L displacement Subaru TD05H uses. And the K04's compact turbine A/R makes for a fast-spooling turbo. I think the -02x has great bones for modding/hybridizing.

And while the Mk4-fitment K03 is slightly smaller, it's nevertheless very rewarding when upgraded.

Some R&D Info to Show What we Yanks are Doing

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