Karls 3.0 TDI build thread

desertstorm said:
Thanks for the comments, I know what you mean about the wheels , A lot of people would stick with at least 18's and if the bigger brakes didn't fit under 17's then it would be running 18 inch wheels and tyres, Probably the same Pro Race 1.2.
Part of the reason for the performance comes from my slightly unusual choices .
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/effects-of-upsized-wheels-and-tires-tested
The quarter mile times would probably be a little quicker with an S Tronic gearbox maybe 0.2 seconds but I am not sure how an S Tronic gearbox would cope with 720Nm of torque, which is why I went with the manual gearbox in the first place.
I am planning on changing the gearbox oil shortly in an effort to improve the gearchange which can be a little notchy at times especially going from second to third.

Karl.
Click to expand...

Hi Karl,
I'm having a problem with a notchy gearbox on my 3.0 TDI. Such a shame. At times I wish I had gone for the s-tronic.
Changed the gearbox oil last week and it doesn't seem to have cured it.
Hope it's nothing too expensive.
I had a 2.0 TDI A3 and the gearbox was silky smooth. Maybe the 3.0 box struggles with the bigger clutch plates.
Chris
 
It seems to me there are three choices I would go for.
The VW spec seems to call for 75w 90 GL 4 oil
The genuine recommended G052 911 oil which is quite expensive and seems from reading a lot on the internet not to actually be a 75w 90 oil but a lot thinner.

http://www.vwaudiforum.co.uk/forum/...gearbox-oil-170-000-mile-change-to-fix-crunch

Then there is Castrol Syntrans 75w-90 GL4 rated oil, meets the G052 911spec.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Castrol-S...972?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item2a3265e104

used this in my Passat gearbox and it was a slight improvement over the stuff that was in there, but that was well manky. I definately think there is no such thing as life long transmission oil.

The other recommended oil is Fuchs Titan Sintofluid it's a 75w-80 GL5 oil, also meets G052 911 strange that neither the viscosity or GL classification is what VW seems to recommend, however there is a lot of evidence to support this actually being the same oil as supplied to VAG so being the same stuff as G052 911.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fuchs-TIT...434?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item257efc432a

It may be that the synchronisers will struggle with the weight of the twin plate clutch on the 3.0 TDI. The extra mass must be making the syncho's have to work harder.
The OB4 gearbox in the 3.0 TDI is a Getrag ML451-6Q gearbox with triple cone synchronisation on 1st and second gears and double cone on the remaining gears.

http://training.avme.net/admin/Upload/SSP/4801_392 Audi A5 generell.pdf

Karl.
 
Just been doing some ringing around. At the local Skoda garage the genuine G052 911 works out at £20.82 a litre and ringing TPS they have it on the shelf at £15.96 a litre +VAT which is £19.15 so not really worth driving the extra distance for me to get it from TPS.
Depending on what you read the gearbox takes between 3.2 and 3.8L so anyway it will need 4L so around £80 for the "proper" stuff.
And £45 ish for the Castrol or Fuchs equivalent.
how thin is the Fuchs stuff at room temperature ?. Be interesting to put some Fuchs and some genuine against each other and see what they look like.

Karl.
 
desertstorm said:
Just been doing some ringing around. At the local Skoda garage the genuine G052 911 works out at £20.82 a litre and ringing TPS they have it on the shelf at £15.96 a litre +VAT which is £19.15 so not really worth driving the extra distance for me to get it from TPS.
Depending on what you read the gearbox takes between 3.2 and 3.8L so anyway it will need 4L so around £80 for the "proper" stuff.
And £45 ish for the Castrol or Fuchs equivalent.
how thin is the Fuchs stuff at room temperature ?. Be interesting to put some Fuchs and some genuine against each other and see what they look like.

Karl.
Click to expand...

The Fuchs isn't that thin at room temp, however, I'm not really an expert when it comes to oils. Like you said, would be good to have them side-by-side.

Even though my gear changes haven't drastically improved, I still think its a good idea to change it.
In my opinion, every component with oil in it should be changed at some point.
Also, my car is on 80k now.

Chris
 
Mines just hit 85K miles so about the same as yours Chris. never having driven one of these that was new I don't know if thats how the gearbox is or weather it's due to wear and tear.
TBH I am leaning towards getting the genuine oil then I know its's right. I can't see a 75w 80 oil being that much thinner than a 75w 90 oil and that is not thin at all at room temperature.
 
It's what works for you , generally a 75w 80 Fuchs Titan Sintofluid improves poor cold shifting , slight economy gains too .

It may improve with a fresh fill of 75w 90 or not improve at all because of an actual wear problem .

Don't get robbed or hung up on the oem stuff , the alternatives sometimes haven't the approval spec because it costs a lot to submit to VW to gain approval , so on low volume gearbox oil sales it's not worth it in terms of profit .
 
Just read this from start to finish, and what a good read.

I like how simple your IC instal was, and the fact you didn't over do it. As you say there is no point having it any bigger if the bigger bit is behind the crash bar.
 
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Karl what engine oil do you use? Or do you know what Audi use when servicing? I've had my car in for a major service about 3 months ago, and the engine oil level seems lower than usual, although no leaks etc..
 
Audi would use Quantum long life 3 5w/30 which is the recommended oil for the car. When I changed the oil I used castrol edge FST 5w/30 . Quantum is made by Castrol so there is probably little differene in the two oils. I only used the Castrol as I managed to get it cheap off a local Ebay seller. Probablty use Quantum next time.

Karl
 
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Doesn't use a great amount of oil in normal motoring, I find when I take it to Santa Pod or it does some runs on a dyno it does use a little.
But I suppose that is to be expected as it is working hard.
I would estimate something like 0.5l in 9K miles which is about the mileage I do in a year. It done nearly 90K miles so I can live with that kind of oil consumption.

Karl.
 
Well been looking at Gearbox oil and bought some 75w-80 Titan Sintofluid, already had some 75w-90 Castrol Syntrans which I used in my Passat gearbox and bought 0.5L of the genuine G052 911 oil. Plan was to see what the genuine oil looked like and if the Fuchs was similar.
And could I actually find another source of the dealer supplied oil.
All three of these oils are supposed to meet the specification, obviously the Dealer supplied oil is the most expensive.
Looking at the oils

IMG_2823_zpsa6e05bc0.jpg~original


The Fuchs on the left is obviously thinner than the genuine or 75w-90 and is pretty yellow.

IMG_2824_zpsa72b1c1a.jpg~original


The Genuine stuff is actually quite clear and more of a straw color and seems to have suspended particles in it if you look closely ? It's not air as I let it stand for an hour or so and whatever they are they are still there.

IMG_2825_zpsb828ccd5.jpg~original


The 75w-90 Castrol is yellow as well and seems a similar viscosity to the genuine oil.

IMG_2826_zps0f2b7db0.jpg~original


The genuine oil definitely looks like it's supplied by Castrol as the Castrol Transaxle and genuine bottle have exactly the same tops.

IMG_2827_zps41ebbab1.jpg~original


Did some basic viscosity testing with a syringe, Fill the syringe with 5ml of oil then measure the time it takes to run out of the small hole in the bottom. Did this at room temperature and heated the oil by standing it in hot water to about 60 degrees. The Fuchs is thinner as it ran out faster, something like 35 seconds at room temp whilst the genuine / Castrol was 45 seconds.
The times for the genuine and Castrol when the oil was hot were pretty much the same and the Fuchs ran out quicker.
The conclusion to me that the genuine oil is a 75w-90 oil which is what I expected as I have read that the spec is 75w-90.

IMG_2835_zpsd8ab6c5a.jpg~original


Next looking at the labels I was trying to see what added ingredients they have in them, pretty much the base oil of a fully synthetic is likely to be the same it's the small bits they add to them that makes the difference.

The Castrol Syntrans Olefin Sulfide

IMG_2830_zps98189fdd.jpg~original


Fuchs PolySulfid and Amin Phosphate

IMG_2831_zpsb038b625.jpg~original


and genuine oil alkenyl amine and substituted thiadiazole

IMG_2833_zpscb93e192.jpg~original


The Castrol and Fuchs have what appear to be a sulphur based ingredient, hence the yellow colour of the oil possibly, The Fuchs also has a Phosphor based ingredient. Where as the Genuine oil has different additives again to the Castrol and Fuchs. I know sulphur and Phosphor based ingredients are what can cause issues with soft metal parts in gearboxes especially copper, brass, bronze parts.

With this bit of knowledge I attempted to try and ascertain using the MSDS sheets for Castrol oil if you could get the original oil from an alternative source.

http://msdspds.castrol.com/msdspds/msdspds.nsf/CastrolResults?OpenForm&c=Germany (DE)&l=English (GB)&p=bot&n=&b=All&t=All&autosearch=No&autoload=No&sitelang=EN&output=Full&spu=Lubricants&unrestrictedmb=No&cols=0

Unfortunately I wasn't able to find another Castrol oil that used both substituted thiadiazole and Alkenyl Amine, but strangely the only oils I could find that used substituted thiadiazole were ATF fluids.

So gave up and decided that for the extra £30 I will use the genuine oil. Would have been nice to find something that was exactly the same as the factory fill at a better price.
Oil is on order and I will change it at the weekend if the weather is OK. Only intend to do this once so may as well do it right.

Karl.
 
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Found some photos on line of the car when I did the Curbrough track day. Many thanks to Stella at Club GTI for giving me the link to download these. I have a new desktop photo on the PC.
Hopefully a set of B8 shockers will help the roll and pitch changes the car has when on a track, not holding my breath it is a bit of a bus.

Curbroughgreatpicture_zpsea01c597.jpg~original


Curbroughgreatpicture2_zps955c7d04.jpg~original


karl
 
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Well got around to changing the gearbox oil today.
Took the car for a bit of a drive to get the oil all warmed up so it would flow out easier.
The drive on our house is sloped so jacking the car up and measuring with a spirit level on the sills to get the car level gave me enough room to change the oil.

IMG_2841_zpsc884bf2e.jpg~original


Remove the gearbox undertray and the fill and drain plugs are visible. The fill plug removed and the existing level checked. It just weeped a little when I removed the fill plug a 10mm Allen head plug.
I fitted a fill tube and tie wrapped it lightly to the clutch slave cylinder.

IMG_2849_zpsa6201cae.jpg~original


Unfortunately Audi dropped off a little with the drain plug. I suppose as they say gearbox is filled for life they didn't design the chassis brace to enable removal of the plug. I had to remove 5 of the 6 18mm bolts that secured the brace as well as a 10mm nut securing the PAS cooler pipe and another 10mm bolt securing a heat shield.

IMG_2840_zpsb1d63e66.jpg~original


Oil drain undone and out it comes. Looking quite dark brown.

IMG_2846_zps44cb715c.jpg~original


Replace the drain and torque to 40Nm as Elsa Win states. I had been pre warming the new oil in a bowl of hot water to thin it down, Makes filling easier. Attach to the pipe squeeze the first 50ml or so in then put a small hole in the bottom of the bottle with a screwdriver to let the air in.

IMG_2848_zps4a8c4412.jpg~original


It took just under 3.5L to fill the box back up. I think a complete new fill is 3.8L according to Elsa Win but there will be old oil leftover in the box.

Replace the fill plug 40Nm again and then reattach the cross brace. Elsa Win says the bolts should not be re used, however they are only securing the cross Brace and the torque for the bolt was 90Nm plus 135 degrees.
They are M12 bolts, so pretty beefy so refitted them with no issues.

The oil that came out looked pretty black in the bowl I use to collect oil.

IMG_2850_zpsb02ba17a.jpg~original


Took the car for a drive and although the changes weren't bad before, I used to have issues 2nd to 3rd when changing up the box quickly. And the changes felt notchy, not smooth.
I didn't have any issues and the box does feel better. When the engine was all warmed up tried a few launches going through the gears with no issues, however the acid test will be the next time I am at Santa Pod.

Putting some of the old oil in a shot glass as the other samples were, it's still pretty dark.I put a magnet on the end of a screwdriver and ran it through the oil and it came out with nothing on. But a lot of gearboxes have magnets built in to trap any debris that may be around so I am not surprised I didn't get anything.

IMG_2852_zpsf4844316.jpg~original


Karl.
 
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Good job you went for genuine transmission oil Karl, i too tried all sorts of aftermarket oils and found the genuine one -even though it costs more - does exactly what it's meant to and improves shifts... I used cheap ATF in some old golfs when the syncro's were worn out and that somehow made shifts cleaner without much grinding after fill but for me is genuine oil everytime !

Done a forum member's gearbox/diff oil change along with a cambelt job and a service and the oils were much cleaner than in yours however the shifts were a touch poorer after refill compared with the thicker oil that was in the box before so i believe the factory filled oils are thicker than what we get as replacement from dealer/TPS...

There was nothing wrong with the gearbox to start with, just done it for maintenance purposes as the car had 230k on the clock ! Sometimes is better not to fix if it's not broken !
 
Been looking into why the oil was so dark on the car, usually you would expect it top come out a little darker but not that color. It seems that pretty much the only reason that oil would go like that in a gearbox is because it has been running hot or very hot at some point.
There is no gearbox cooler on the gearbox which are fitted to some higher power cars as the transmission losses created with lots of power also create lots of heat.
The Auto gearbox and the DSG boxes have coolers. There is also very little ventilation as in intakes on the underside of the car. It's pretty much flat all the way to reduce drag and increase mpg.
Thus when I use it in the summer I think I am going to remove the gearbox cover plate as this will allow a large amount of cool air around the box. The way it is at the moment the only air getting there is that passing through the rad then around the nice big hot engine with manifolds either side, A wacking DPF / exhaust and finally finds the gearbox. With the torsen diff in the box this will add to the heat load.
Thinking about it, the holiday this summer was pretty hot so with an all up weight of around 3400Kg caravan and car it may not have coped too well.
There doesn't appear to be any sensor in the gearbox to monitor the temperature, I may put a max/min digital thermometer on it just to see what the case temperature gets to in normal use.

Karl.
 
When I checked the car the other day with VCDS just to make sure all was OK,I found some fault codes.
Cleared them and then gave it a few days and they were back.
So ordered the parts to repair.
When I bought the car there was a fault on it with glowplug 2 and I changed this one only at the time. Two more plugs have gone on 5 and 6 which I didn't think was that good as the car has only done less than 90K miles.
Anyway had a look around and found Beru items the same as originally fitted at Car parts 4 less for £10.08 and if you order more than £50 there was a £5 off discount. So ordered 5 to make the £50 and ended up paying £45 for 5.
Significantly less than the dealer price.
The other fault code related to the intake manifold swirl flap mechanism. A very common problem usually caused by wear in the arms on the actuators. Fortunately you can now get a modified part thats not too expensive.
Just less than £30 for two arms and clips.
As I had to removed the actual swirl flap motors to replace the glowplugs in 3 and 6 it seemed like a good idea to do both jobs at the same time.

Heres the parts.

IMG_2858_zps3ab02621.jpg~original


Just 3 screws to remove the swirl flap motors

IMG_2859_zps60357aea.jpg~original


Only tricky thing about removing and putting the plugs back can be sorted with a small bore pipe that you can push on the top of the plug to pull it out and then use it to pop the new one in. Just remember to warm the engine before you take the plugs out and go really easy.

IMG_2865_zps1ebab56c.jpg~original


The intake flap that was reporting a fault was the one on the RHS by the turbo heat shield where it gets nice and hot and you could actually see marks on the heat shield where it had been rubbing. So bent the shield out of the way and changed the arms both sides.

IMG_2862_zps07a2400b.jpg~original


The new ones are very different to the old design and more positive, It seems only a small amount of wear is enough to trip a fault code.

IMG_2866_zps5af9a966.jpg~original


Total parts outlay less than £75 and took me less than an hour. Wonder how much it would have cost at the main dealers ??

karl
 
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Karl where are you based. This is something I'll be wanting to do in spring 2015. Do you accept £££ for supervision duties. :)
 
I am in Cannock about 15 miles north of Birmingham. I see from some of your posts you are more East London / Essex. Drop a PM to Chris Adams @adamss24 . He is in your part of the world and he could do this for you.

Karl.
 
Thanks, I'll keep that in mind. Btw how much did your oil cost ? How many litres
 
I used just under 3.5 L to fill the box, fortunately thats what I bought. From my local Skoda dealer it cost £69. I bought the 0.5l bottle seperately from the 3L . I did get a discount on the 3L just by asking they knocked 10% off, around £6.

Karl.
 
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This thread is epic. Just read the whole thing as an alternative to concentrating on work! Thanks for your effort in testing things as you go. These 3.0 TDIs are a bit of a niche as far as modifying goes, so it's great to see some detail behind someone's modding work.
 
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Upgraded the suspension last weekend, I had already fitted the Eibach lowering springs but wasn't happy with the handling using the standard SE shockers, especially on track, so bought a Bilstein B12 pro suspension kit.
This includes a set of Eibach springs and matched Bilstein B8 shock absorbers.
The springs are identical to the ones I already have on the car so will be going on Ebay in the near future.

IMG_2867_zps0f147a10.jpg~original


The shock absorbers are completely different to the standard one fitted. The standard shockers take about 30 seconds to fully extend if compressed. The Bilsteins are high pressure monotube ones and I put the shocker on a scales and it requires over 30Kg of force to compress and hold the shock compressed. They have a significantly greater amount of damping than the standard shocks.
The result is when fitted the car ride height has increased by about 6-8mm front and back which is not really a major issue for me. The main difference is the handling improvements. The car stays so flat in the corners and when braking or accelerating it doesn't pitch like it used to before. If you braked hard the car would stand on it's nose and accelerating hard it would squat at the back.
Pretty much all of that is gone, the ride quality thankfully is still pretty good, Not as smooth as it was before but it doesn't crash into potholes, draincovers and the like and is only slightly noisier on rough roads.
I would describe it as firm not hard.
Been driving around a week now and I am definitely liking it, the wife and kids haven't said anything so it's not that much different to them but the way it stops and goes around corners is very much improved.
Bilstein have done a really good job with this suspension set up, The B8's have stickers on them saying they have been tested on the Nurburgring. I should maybe test mine out next year :D .

Karl
 
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There is a kit with sportline springs, I don't want to go that low though, If I did I would have bought the sportline kit in the first place.
The B12 pro kit I bought from Fleabay in Germany is this one

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eibach-Bi...427588442?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item1c45a5f55a

If you just wanted shock absorbers these were the ones I was going to buy.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bilstein-...979994010?pt=DE_Autoteile&hash=item58b42d5d9a

There isn't that much difference between the cost of a set of shocks and buying the shocks and springs together.

Karl.
 
Had a look and don't actually think there is a sportline kit for my car, typically the PRO kit is a 30mm drop and the sportline usually 40- 45mm.
They do a Pro and sportline kit for the 2.0 TDI
The Pro kit is 35F - 30 R and the sportline 45F - 35R

Karl.
 
desertstorm said:
Had a look and don't actually think there is a sportline kit for my car, typically the PRO kit is a 30mm drop and the sportline usually 40- 45mm.
They do a Pro and sportline kit for the 2.0 TDI
The Pro kit is 35F - 30 R and the sportline 45F - 35R

Karl.
Click to expand...

You're right there Karl.
I was looking for the Sportline kit for my 3.0TDI and couldn't fine one. Was told by Eibach themselves that they only do a Pro Kit.
Still a nice drop though, even if it is only 10-15mm from s-line height.

Looking forward to next year so I can get my winter 18's off and put on some shiny 19's.

Chris
 
A little tweak to the car.
As my car doesn't have the xenon lights and LED DRL's it gets a fairly poor halogen bulb powered DRL.
Decided to upgrade these to DRL's as I haven't had the DRL's turned on since I bought the car, they are not really worth using.
They use a strange bulb called a P13W which is actually a 13W bulb that is designed to have a very long life but are ridiculously expensive, something like £15-£20 each.
Because they last so long Audi must have thought that you wouldn't have to replace them very often so they used a moulded breakable cover over the bulb that needs to be cut out and then you use a rubber cover over the top to reseal the light.
These bulbs double as sidelights so if you had one out and took it to the dealer it would probably cost you something like £80 to change. Say the bulbs are £20, the rubber cover is around £14 and 30 minutes labor , mad.
Needless to say I didn't pay anything near those prices.

The bulbs I opted to use are badged as 50W CREE white LED bulbs, ordering them direct from Fleabay China and waiting 3 weeks is the cheaper option. I actually ordered 5 just in case I need a spare.
You can get less powerful ones but I figured that as these bulbs are monitored you need to pull a certain amount of current to avoid getting a bulb blown warning.I have checked these bulbs and they pull about 320mA (0.32A ), where as the original halogen ones are 1.2A .
I got them from this seller shop http://stores.ebay.co.uk/2008mysky?_trksid=p2047675.l2563 and cost me £23 with the postage for 5 bulbs.

IMG_2899_zpsbe8ab15a.jpg~original


I measured the diameter that the cover would need to be and had a look on Fleabay. Found a seller doing 54mm rubber lens caps that seemed ideal. Ordered 4 for £11.40 .

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/121331856914?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=420388425571&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

The proper cap is part number 8J0 941 607 and looks like this

genuinecap_zpsb7162448.jpg~original


The bulbs and caps I got

IMG_2901_zpse13dc270.jpg~original


Audi fortunately make it very easy to remove the headlights, they even supply the tool in the tool kit.
(Borrowed this excellent picture from a user called Clear on Audizine.com )

HeadlightremovalusercalledclearfromAudizinecom_zpse55ee88a.jpg~original


I would recommend a new blade in your stanley knife to cut out the plastic covers. There is a thin line around the outside which is where you cut.
Heres one

IMG_2908_zps39ad5334.jpg~original


And the other

IMG_2910_zpsc9791349.jpg~original


The bulbs turn approx 20 degrees to lock and unlock. sometimes you have issues with LED bulbs about polarity, these bulbs work connected either way.
i found putting the new bulb in you located the bulb in the holder, then put the connector on. They are too long to fit with the connector attached. Fit that after you have installed the bulb.

The caps fit pretty well but don't grip tight enough for me so put a bead of silicone on the inside and fitted them.
If they need to come off the silicone won't be an issue.

IMG_2917_zpsed9f70df.jpg~original


And both caps fitted, hopefully won't need removing in the future.

IMG_2915_zps1d9f30e2.jpg~original


This is one side done, If you didn't know the original dim orange one is on the left.

IMG_2912_zps6eff8136.jpg~original



And both fitted

IMG_2918_zps3b229b6b.jpg~original


This is without the headlights on, they are a good deal brighter than the originals.
Took just over an hour to change them over including taking the pictures and chatting to the neighbour.
Been for a drive, done around 10 miles and no bulb failure notices so look like the car is happy.

Karl.
 
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