R Tech Remap Results

S

SteveSAS

Guest
Hi Guys, finally got my remap done today & its a mixed outcome really.

Got there for the early slot at 9 so to miss traffic coming up from kent.
After smoke test found a leak under inlet manifold & Nick set to work ripping out unwanted pipework & replacing any needed ones.
Once on the rollers was quite scary as my first remap ever with any car & sounds like it could blow up any moment lol.

Now results as I said were a bit mixed especially with my mods: Piperwerx downpipe & sports cat, jetex cat back & Badger TIP.

Before map:
223.3 bhp at 6172 rpm
219.37 torque at 3034 rpm

After map:
254.4 bhp at 5846 rpm
266.66 torque at 3647 rpm

Nick said the bhp is being strangled at the top by the Jetex back box design. Looks & sounds nice but weird pipe routing causing bad pressure (see pics). He also commented that the sports cat looked very small & would work better being bigger with more mass to help flow.

Now I've spoke to Jetex & they say all there exhausts have been tested for flow & noise & for that model S3 (and the mk4 Golf 4motion) thats the only design back box they do. I can see where Nick is coming from about how the gases would struggle to get out.

I said in another post that I really did notice the extra power even before remap with these mods & now the power is the just as progressive but much more. I suppose you notice the torque much more than bhp really.

I'm happy with how it feels but a bit niggled that I researched so hard, went with trusted Pipewerx downpipe & a well established & respected performance exhaust outfit as Jetex & still came up short.
You pay all that money to trust the experts & then have doubts in you mind.

Couldn't be happier with R Tech who are very friendly & professional.

Comments welcome

Cheers Steve
Jetex back box

Tailpipe

Sports Cat
 
As long as the cat is 3 inch in and out i dont see the problem, they are all going to be 200cell. does it really matter the volume of it?

As for the backbox, again dont see the problem there myself, unless nick has cut one open and knows something others dont. Its 2.75inch in and out right? same as a miltek.
 
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But did you trust the experts who were trying to sell you something, or the experts who were try to offer you advice? ;)

If you were going for optimum flow and efficiency then you could comment that the back box wasn't all that.

Your figures aren't bad, leave it as it is and go enjoy it.
 
I can't see how the design of that back is causing an issue... the Miltek is technically no different to that...

The std back box would be much more restrictive than that 'looks' to be and this has been used on cars making 260hp before now...

Unless the internals of that box are known to be small you can't just look at it and say its a problem

Inside of a miltek...
IMAG0122.jpg


...and my back box that is apparently happy with nearly 480hp...
20140318_201035.jpg


<tuffty/>
 
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maybe x-ray vision.. lol

not unheard of for some constructions to have mighty small internals with larger inlet/exit pipes flattering their "size" but none of this would be known unless it was opened to look see
 
Would it not more likely be the sports cats being the restriction! Also as I have found out, is the car in sound mechanical condition ensuring that no other component is causing a lower bhp figure?
 
Hey guys, thanks for all that input, nice to see the pic of Miltek inside to yes convince me the Jetex is probably not at fault. Just Nick thought the pipe in should be coming in centre & not in same side as going out. He said gases would be bashing into each other on the way out & even the Miltek design coming from the middle on a big power car can almost burn the opposite side of box. To me it sounds like he's talking as if there are no pipes in these back boxes & gases have to find their own route out. First time I've seen inside a back box (Miltek pic) but surely Nick knows the gases follow the pipes inside.
As far as a healthy car, who knows, all I know is its done 93000 miles, serviced regular. I've changed oil pick up pipe & cleaned out sump two years ago when I bought it, had new plugs, filters (oil, fuel & air), new DV, no known running issues & faults.

I am happy with the way it feels so thanks 16Klappe I will enjoy it now & spend no more (this year at least lol)

No Daz still have standard intercoolers.

Oh, yeah how my graph is from map. It starts from 1.5 bar at low revs at climbs to 4 bar for bhp (before map no more than 3.5 bar). With torque starts from just over 2.5 bar at reaches 4 bar (before map just under 3.5 bar)

cheers guys
 
My 14 year old 200k+ OEM back box managed 282bhp/298lbft when tuned by R Tech.

I was using the relentless sports cat before and I was surprised how clogged up it looked when the de-cat went on.

Have you had the cat on there long and/or used the car for a while with any fueling issues?
 
kwistof said:
My 14 year old 200k+ OEM back box managed 282bhp/298lbft when tuned by R Tech.

I was using the relentless sports cat before and I was surprised how clogged up it looked when the de-cat went on.

Have you had the cat on there long and/or used the car for a while with any fueling issues?
Click to expand...
No Chris only had the exhaust on for a few weeks so all brand new. No fuelling issues I know of.
 
SteveSAS said:
Oh, yeah how my graph is from map. It starts from 1.5 bar at low revs at climbs to 4 bar for bhp (before map no more than 3.5 bar). With torque starts from just over 2.5 bar at reaches 4 bar (before map just under 3.5 bar)

cheers guys
Click to expand...

I hope its not making this boost LOL.... even taking the typical 1bar ot atmospheric pressure off you are suggesting you are running 2 to 2.5bar of boost???... I am hoping you have misunderstood the the graph :)

<tuffty/>
 
I'm at 290 with a Relentless sports cat, tuned by R-Tech obviously.
 
just shy of 270bhp
no fmic
no manifold
really not too had surely guys?
 
just realised i misread the figures.
ignore me
 
Considering your mods they arent bad figures at all.
Get yourself a Wellycooler on there and you can enjoy the power for longer :)
 
Those bar readings are high! Don't let this happen!

 
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16Klappe said:
That was what I was clarifying, but not wishing to get into a debate about.
Click to expand...


You love a master debate though :p

Just to clarify I was only asking about the CAT as if it had been on there for years then it may have got blocked with crap and not producing great flow.... (like how mine was when removed)
I wasn't trying to make out the Pipewerx/Relentless CATS don't flow correctly from new as they clearly do as proven on many cars.
 
16Klappe said:
That was what I was clarifying, but not wishing to get into a debate about.
Click to expand...

depends on if its blocked or shrunk and rotating in his small housing.
seen that

it would be fairly obvious whilst tuning if there was a blockage
Not all engines are going to produce the same power output, some are just plain lame/worn out
 
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Would be interesting to see that kind of layout that Jetex backbox has inside, i can't see it being designed specifically for gases to get in and out quickly tbh

Enjoy the remap bud!

Not posted a picture in ages so heres my set up
P4170524.jpg
 
And my black S3 made 275 on RTechs rollers, on a 10 year old map, standard side mounts, standard down pipe and exhaust system, with a decat.
 
but yours couldve done with 75 less at coombe ;)
 
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<tuffty/> said:
I hope its not making this boost LOL.... even taking the typical 1bar ot atmospheric pressure off you are suggesting you are running 2 to 2.5bar of boost???... I am hoping you have misunderstood the the graph :)

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...
Hi Tuffty,

Yes think I've got mixed up with all the lines that are hard to determine colour it must be one of the two bottom black lines one peaks at 2 bar & the other at 2.5 bar. Here is the scanned graph if you can clearly.
R Tech graph 001
 
SteveSAS said:
Hi Tuffty,

Yes think I've got mixed up with all the lines that are hard to determine colour it must be one of the two bottom black lines one peaks at 2 bar & the other at 2.5 bar. Here is the scanned graph if you can clearly.
View attachment 45575
Click to expand...

Looks like the car spikes to 2 bar at 3000rpm and it makes 2 bar again at 5000rpm. One bar is atmospheric pressure.

The other black line is temp.
 
Ok... had a better look at it... R-Tech's dyno software doesn't report on atmospheric pressure it would appear so the pressures are absolute... atmospheric pressure is 990 to 1000 odd mbar so lets all it 1bar for cash...

Boost is the blacker looking lines so the lower one is how you drove in (before) and the higher one is how you drove out...

Higher one looks to peak at just a shade over 1.5bar at around 3,1k rpm and tail off to around 1.2bar at redline...

1.5bar/22psi seems a little high with no FMIC tbh as you are technically still in the realms of stage 1 hardware...

I would just double check boost once you fit a FMIC is all to make sure the spike on spool doesn't run away... a boost gauge of some sort is a useful early warning system... but be aware that the boost will vary a little on these cars as ME7 uses more or less boost depending on how much it thinks it needs to get the job done rather than run a fixed boost all the time

<tuffty/>
 
<tuffty/> said:
Ok... had a better look at it... R-Tech's dyno software doesn't report on atmospheric pressure it would appear so the pressures are absolute... atmospheric pressure is 990 to 1000 odd mbar so lets all it 1bar for cash...

Boost is the blacker looking lines so the lower one is how you drove in (before) and the higher one is how you drove out...

Higher one looks to peak at just a shade over 1.5bar at around 3,1k rpm and tail off to around 1.2bar at redline...

1.5bar/22psi seems a little high with no FMIC tbh as you are technically still in the realms of stage 1 hardware...

I would just double check boost once you fit a FMIC is all to make sure the spike on spool doesn't run away... a boost gauge of some sort is a useful early warning system... but be aware that the boost will vary a little on these cars as ME7 uses more or less boost depending on how much it thinks it needs to get the job done rather than run a fixed boost all the time

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...

Does it look to you like the turbo is working abit harder than you would expect to see, no?

The stock tune spikes with the hardware configuration and it looks like the higher boost request exaggerates this abit.
A lack of FMIC can't be helping but there looks like a restriction somewhere else too
 
<tuffty/> said:
Ok... had a better look at it... R-Tech's dyno software doesn't report on atmospheric pressure it would appear so the pressures are absolute... atmospheric pressure is 990 to 1000 odd mbar so lets all it 1bar for cash...

Boost is the blacker looking lines so the lower one is how you drove in (before) and the higher one is how you drove out...

Higher one looks to peak at just a shade over 1.5bar at around 3,1k rpm and tail off to around 1.2bar at redline...

1.5bar/22psi seems a little high with no FMIC tbh as you are technically still in the realms of stage 1 hardware...

I would just double check boost once you fit a FMIC is all to make sure the spike on spool doesn't run away... a boost gauge of some sort is a useful early warning system... but be aware that the boost will vary a little on these cars as ME7 uses more or less boost depending on how much it thinks it needs to get the job done rather than run a fixed boost all the time

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...
Ok Tuffty,

Thanks for clearing that up for me. I don't intend (for a few years anyway) to get an FMIC & will be content running it how it is. The remap R Tech gave me Nicky said was a Stage 1.5 because I had the downpipe & B5 TIP on car. So as its running now you think it will be fine reliability wise?

Cheers for your expertise
 
SteveSAS said:
...So as its running now you think it will be fine reliability wise?
Click to expand...

I couldn't possibly comment on reliability as there are too many factors involved... its looks ok, assuming the engine and other bits are sound then who knows... as I said I am not sure I would have run a car with no FMIC with a 22psi spool spike but I wasn't there on the day so can't really comment on how the car was reacting to the tuning... they all react slightly differently and from the torque it looks like timing advance may be a little on the low side... perhaps it was pulling timing so r-tech dropped it down a bit...

If they have tuned to the way the car reacted to the changes then I can't see why it would be an issue...

<tuffty/>
 
<tuffty/> said:
I couldn't possibly comment on reliability as there are too many factors involved... its looks ok, assuming the engine and other bits are sound then who knows... as I said I am not sure I would have run a car with no FMIC with a 22psi spool spike but I wasn't there on the day so can't really comment on how the car was reacting to the tuning... they all react slightly differently and from the torque it looks like timing advance may be a little on the low side... perhaps it was pulling timing so r-tech dropped it down a bit...

If they have tuned to the way the car reacted to the changes then I can't see why it would be an issue...

<tuffty/>
Click to expand...
Thanks for that, obviously I do trust R Tech as I know they are very thorough with every car they have on the rollers. I wonder if it could have anything to do with that previous fault code I had about Bank 1 camshaft A (VVT tensioner) that was cleared off before I had remap & did over 100 miles on new cambelt kit & checked to find it hadn't returned before visiting R Tech.
As you say so many variables with each engine really.
 
Has anyone looked at the Jetex 8l rear box and compared to the oem unit or brands that are proven to flow? The oem rear box is capable off 300hp+ with a decent effective setup. The jetex 8l box is unique and like no other 8l system on the market its going again the grain.
Under load is sounds like the santa pod jet car, a high pitch high velocity air flow sound the type of sound which is related to a collapsed silencer or blocked cat. Its as if the rear box is being filled up with the gasses and forcing the gas out under "pressure" not flowing out clean as if the rear box is a pressure vessel if you know what I mean?
The car did make the delta numbers but during tuning i could tell there was a more effort needed and the timing and egts where higher other setups which I relate to back pressure build up and poor flow. I am seeing this more with the 8p and cupra tfsi on higher power setups on hybrids same effect and same sounds from the rear boxes building up pressure. The fix was to move to a another rear box design which aids a better directional flow exit.
The simple experiment is to kick the rear box off while on the dyno and do back to back runs and logs, a method I have used 100s of times to gain data to resolve issues.

I would love to see the data jetex have in the 8l running stage2 or above power with this design rear box. But we must remember most manufactures will only test and develop on stock untuned engines not setups at the edge of there ve window.

I have ran the inline jetex systems on the Cupra R and they worked prefect and sounded correct not like a jet engine sound.
 
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Ah... the 'jet engine' sound was not mentioned... this is a typical noise a restrictive system makes to be fair... this is the noise my Miltek started making when I did the last round of updates on my GT30 setup at 400ish hp...

the Jetex box is not very wide so suspect its chambered at the other end...

EGT's would be a tell... I used an OE back box when I first did my GT30 build and EGT's went through the roof...

<tuffty/>
 
@paul
How is 1.5bar going to have any effect on the stock intercoolers sub 3500rpm? stage1 stage1.5 stage2 boost in that area is not an issue at all limiting factor is the rods sub stage2 still the boost and torque limiting factor is rods. Stage2 with rods and stock smic can happy go over 340lbft with 1.75bar. (I have seen some come in with the stage1 boost at 1.7bar on stock rods.. cringe factor for me I am happy at 1.5bar peak on stock rods at any stage of tune)

The hold back is when trying to hold boost up the rpm range to a point which egt and ait can rocket the stage of tune is to manage this effect. The addition of a fmic on a k04 at stage2 is for manage the charge temps while trying to hold the boost higher in the rpm range. Stock fmics can be used fine with stage2 if the whole setup is perfect and effective. Rolling roads wont show this effectiveness as most cannot supply both cores with a decent amount of air into the cores. Its the same smic setup as we use on r32 turbo at 500hp.
 
@paul

Whooooooshhhhhhhhhhh Not a Roooooarrrrrrr lol

and egts wanting to go into oem protection on the 350rpm sec runs which I never see at stage2, so had to use a different fuel and boost strategy counter.

I could add move boost at the top end and power would not climbed just egts went even higher, opening the air box gained around 100mb across the top end but no gain in hp. Normally at this stage by opening the air box I can see 12-15hp delta at the top end from the extra 100mb.
 
Pipe size looks fine tbh. its what ever its doing inside the box to cause the pressure build up. Using perforated tube to create a 90deg U bend? Or just a void being filled up if you know what I mean? Needs choppy choppy..
 
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