Interesting thread on Pistonheads - Golf R Turbo Failure - TD1

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Looks like the APR development Golf R has had a turbo failure and warranty is being denied by VW due to a TD1 flag..

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/...d=0&i=0&nmt=Golf+R+Warranty+Help+Please&mid=0

Page 2, third response.

The car was run at Crail, videos were posted online, results logged on the website, it was posted by APR themselves on their facebook page. Efforts to remove all this, flash back to stock have proved futile and warranty claim is being denied.

Moral of the story, unless you're happy to forgo your warranty, TD1 is ruining things for us speedfreak petrolheads:(
 
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Not to forget that this also includes tuning boxes, even though it doesn't give a TD1 flag there's no reason for the dealer technicians to diagnose the ECU indepth for any anomalies, such as constant over boost abuse.

Couldn't see any reason why the ECU wouldn't data log how the car is driven on average.
 
I thought the way the tuning boxes worked was to fool the ECU into thinking it was running normal boost whilst the box allowed it to do otherwise

So wouldn't the ECU see and log normal readings with a tuning box?

This is just my thoughts. I am probably wrong though. Anyone know exactly how they work?
 
That's exactly how they work, I suppose it depends on whether they can read airflow/torque values etc that would give the game away. I'm pretty certain at dealer level, they wouldn't, deeper analysis back at Audi HQ, most probably.

Tuning box wise, I'm fairly satisfied that once removed, chances are you'll get away with it.
 
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Tuning boxes can bring up fault codes, eg:

1 Fault Found:
15343 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0299 00 [096] - Control Range Not Reached

which may prompt further investigation.............

Also - long term trim values in the ECU will also give things away, in addition to the memory tables in the ECU. I wouldn't say that tuning boxes are 100% undetectable. Someone who is determined could always find traces ............... Prob not at dealer level, but definitely do-able.
 
Ive said this before but seems to be landing on death ears. If you tune your car fully expect the warranty to be void, anything else is a bonus.

These ECU's even log turbine speed so doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise if they dig a little deeper they will see that its been played with regardless of what tune/box you have on.
 
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I've played around with VCDS quite a bit and used to do a lot of logging, I don't recall a table for turbine speeds though, sure engine revolutions/load/duty cycle and so on and on but not turbine speed. Those logs were only relevant to the run that was carried out also and couldn't be viewed historically. I don't believe the ECU's have this historical functionality other than logging fault codes, well certainly not at beginner/intermediate level (Dealership level)

For sure, I'm certain back at Audi HQ with a diagnostics team deciphering the data, then no doubts about it they will find something. Dealership level though, I have my doubts.

But yes, you should be under no illusion that warranty is safe, if they dig deep enough, they will find. Something however would need to flag them to that, namely TD1, chances are with a tuning box removed and a bit of luck on your side, you'll get away with it.

It's a sad state of affairs for us that like to get more from their motors but I'm sure we can all understand the logic behind TD1, the old saying goes though, you gotta pay to play and its the risk we all take.

Veeeight, yes I had a few error codes when I last scanned, namely sensor out of range messages, easy enough to clear if you have VCDS but again, if you don't have VCDS, an error code like that may well arouse suspicions.

Revo do clearly state information about TD1 on their website now. APR clearly didn't think it was a problem and have now been burned by a warranty rejection (I presume the owner will have got it put back to standard before taking it to a main dealer which raises the question of whether its possible to load in the old file unnoticed?)

But yes Rob, agree, anything else is a bonus if you get away with it.
 
Leo-83 said:
the old saying goes though, you gotta pay to play and its the risk we all take.
Click to expand...


It's nice to know, that if you go down the MTM route, they offer their own warranty in the price of MTM-Cantronic should Audi not honour theirs:

Section 2: MTM Warranty extent, term and scope

1. The warranty shall cover (the list is definitive) the following assemblies and parts:
a) Engine: pistons, cylinder bore liners, bolts, rings, connecting rods, crankshaft, crankshaft sprocket, countershaft gear wheel, oil pump, drive wheel, cylinder head gasket, cylinder block, camshaft, tappets, valve rocker arm, camshaft sprocket, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, cylinder head, valves, valve guides, carburetor, crankcase, oil cooler, oil sump, oil pressure switch, air volume meter, air flow meter, knock sensor, sensors, bearings, idling actuator;
b) Turbo: turbo, compressor, intercooler;
c) 4 x 4: transfer case, viscous clutch, differential lock;
d) Mechanical transmission: sprockets, gear-selector forks, sliding sleeves, drive shaft, main shaft;
e) Automatic transmission: shafts, planetary gear sets, disks, belts, valves, oil pump, governor, safety valves;
f) Axle drive: differential, sprockets, wheel bearings;
g) Power take-off shafts: propshafts, propshaft bearings, final drive shafts, electronic control units;
h) Brakes: brake booster, main brake cylinder, vacuum pump, brake-power regulator, brake-force limiter, ABS control unit;
i) Suspension: lower and upper rocker arms, suspension arm rings, axles and suspensions, king pins and rings, wishbones, track rods;
j) Electrical system: alternator, starter motor, windscreen wiper motor,
 
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Just what a big US tuner has said and they have a lot more sophisticated logging and calibration tools than vcds. Anyone can believe what they want but everything is detectable if they want to or have a reason to dig for it. Nothing is undetectable as far as I know, and no tuner has said it is, Revo APR GAIC etc even the other major tuning box players don't suggest their boxes are un-detectable ie MTM, ABT etc they have their own in house warranty.

The only tuner that's guaranteed it is un-detectable is dtuk...
 
There's logging and there's logging... Just because you can read the current value doesn't mean you have any history of it. Given the enormous amounts of data these systems produce, you might expect maximum reached, minimum reached and average to be stored for all sensors, but I wouldn't expect ANYBODY to be able to go in and tell you - for example - what the turbo was doing every second on the 3 hour trip you made 2 weeks ago.
 
veeeight said:
It's nice to know, that if you go down the MTM route, they offer their own warranty in the price of MTM-Cantronic should Audi not honour theirs:

Section 2: MTM Warranty extent, term and scope

1. The warranty shall cover (the list is definitive) the following assemblies and parts:
a) Engine: pistons, cylinder bore liners, bolts, rings, connecting rods, crankshaft, crankshaft sprocket, countershaft gear wheel, oil pump, drive wheel, cylinder head gasket, cylinder block, camshaft, tappets, valve rocker arm, camshaft sprocket, intake manifold, exhaust manifold, cylinder head, valves, valve guides, carburetor, crankcase, oil cooler, oil sump, oil pressure switch, air volume meter, air flow meter, knock sensor, sensors, bearings, idling actuator;
b) Turbo: turbo, compressor, intercooler;
c) 4 x 4: transfer case, viscous clutch, differential lock;
d) Mechanical transmission: sprockets, gear-selector forks, sliding sleeves, drive shaft, main shaft;
e) Automatic transmission: shafts, planetary gear sets, disks, belts, valves, oil pump, governor, safety valves;
f) Axle drive: differential, sprockets, wheel bearings;
g) Power take-off shafts: propshafts, propshaft bearings, final drive shafts, electronic control units;
h) Brakes: brake booster, main brake cylinder, vacuum pump, brake-power regulator, brake-force limiter, ABS control unit;
i) Suspension: lower and upper rocker arms, suspension arm rings, axles and suspensions, king pins and rings, wishbones, track rods;
j) Electrical system: alternator, starter motor, windscreen wiper motor,
Click to expand...

That's one of the reasons I choose MTM ;-) No pb at all so far !
 
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arad85 said:
There's logging and there's logging... Just because you can read the current value doesn't mean you have any history of it. Given the enormous amounts of data these systems produce, you might expect maximum reached, minimum reached and average to be stored for all sensors, but I wouldn't expect ANYBODY to be able to go in and tell you - for example - what the turbo was doing every second on the 3 hour trip you made 2 weeks ago.
Click to expand...

If that data is stored,and even if it's simply maximum and minimum values,those are exactly the sort of data that will undo your warranty.

i.e.things like max boost,timing,and a few other parameters,and if any one of those is above factory max,no warranty.
 
S3Alex said:
If that data is stored,and even if it's simply maximum and minimum values,those are exactly the sort of data that will undo your warranty.

i.e.things like max boost,timing,and a few other parameters,and if any one of those is above factory max,no warranty.
Click to expand...
How do you prove it was a box and that it wasn't a duff sensor reading maximum/minimum? I've just had an intermittent problem fixed on my A3 with one of the cylinder pressure sensors reading all of maximum, minimum and implausible signal. It was a bad connector.... All the boixes do (and I thought that's what we were talking about here) is fool the engine into believing they are reading a different value to they actually are. I can see that a remap can be found from looking at data values, but not a box as the ECU has to be built to deal with out of spec. sensors....
 
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You would then look at other parameters, that would be apparent, and out of kilter to normal behaviour, eg: long term fuel trim figures.

Like we said above, if you delve far enough, you will see anomalies.
 
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Suggestions to those who'd like more power is be patient and wait for the warranty to expire then?
 
With the 8P you would be ok but now as we like more technological items they also give more benefit to the manufacturer and even if the software is "cracked" a simple update by Audi starts it all over again.

Even the company's offering mods are making it more evident now that it's not undetectable.

I did find that thread a bit strange when I first read it, makes a bit more sense now (if its true).

Unfortunatly with modding you run these risks, some cars will be fine for years some won't. If you've leased/PCP remember it isn't your car so if something like this happens you may have to pay for the whole thing.
 
That's a good point on the lease/PCP point that was raised at work today...me and my boss discuss this often as he's a car nut too with heavily modded cars...I don't think the lease/PCP company would be impressed at you lowering the value of their car!
You could end up with a nasty bill at the end either to buy the car or the value may be lowered below GMV as the car is not as planned as it will be without warranty with a TD1 even an Audi used warranty as the flag would still be there!!

Can someone have a look through their PCP paperwork and see if it mentions anything about modifications please??
 
Louay said:
Suggestions to those who'd like more power is be patient and wait for the warranty to expire then?
Click to expand...
Or modify it but be prepared to have to buy a new engine/gearbox if the worst happens! Yes, that's it in a nutshell.

If you can't afford to run the car without a warranty then don't modify it, simple as that!
 
RobH_S3 said:
Ive said this before but seems to be landing on death ears. If you tune your car fully expect the warranty to be void, anything else is a bonus.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Of course a cursory check by a dealer isn't likely to show anything but Audi themselves will usually be able to tell. All comes down to exactly what the warranty claim is. If the red flags start going up, such as unusual turbo failure on a relatively new car, Audi are more likely to ask the dealer to perform more in-depth checks to ascertain whether it's been modded in any way, especially if the remedial work will run to thousands.
 
RobH_S3 said:
Just what a big US tuner has said and they have a lot more sophisticated logging and calibration tools than vcds. Anyone can believe what they want but everything is detectable if they want to or have a reason to dig for it. Nothing is undetectable as far as I know, and no tuner has said it is, Revo APR GAIC etc even the other major tuning box players don't suggest their boxes are un-detectable ie MTM, ABT etc they have their own in house warranty.

The only tuner that's guaranteed it is un-detectable is dtuk...
Click to expand...
Rob

We've never "guaranteed" anything...

From my own experience of several Audis that have been tuned and returned back to Audi I can say that not one of them have shown any TD1 flags.

I also know of a customer with an early s3 that suffered a turbo failure, his car went back to Audi, the car was plugged into the online system back to the factory and nothing was logged..

Not a guarantee just me telling it how it is from my own experience.

It's not just the s3 that can suffer TD1 it's most vags both petrol and diesel, on average we tuned 20/25 of these cars a week, and I'm yet to find a thread anywhere where a customer has had a warranty issue with a box..

If I was you I'd be asking your tuner if they're going to cover your car if and when your turbo pops? I hope for your sake that you don't find yourself in a similar position to the Golf R owner
 
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Vertigo1 said:
Exactly. Of course a cursory check by a dealer isn't likely to show anything but Audi themselves will usually be able to tell. All comes down to exactly what the warranty claim is. If the red flags start going up, such as unusual turbo failure on a relatively new car, Audi are more likely to ask the dealer to perform more in-depth checks to ascertain whether it's been modded in any way, especially if the remedial work will run to thousands.
Click to expand...

This was my thought at the time as it was before everyone knew that the early build s3s suffered from a design flaw in the turbo, the car I mentioned above was checked throughly and there were no flags and no questions asked.. But let's be honest I'm sure by then Audi themselves must of been aware that there was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off with all of these early turbos.
 
Excuse my ignorance but if I, for example, switch on needle sweep using VCDS will that throw up any code (TD1?) which might be used by Audi to reject a later warranty claim - not necessarily connected to needle sweep but simply because the car has been "modified".
 
arad85 said:
Anomalies don't mean proof... and that's all that matters here.
Click to expand...

I think that veeeight hit the nail pretty well on the head with his previous post.

Of course,anomalies don't neccessarily amount to proof,but what you're missing is that the manufacturer isn't your friend when it comes to warranty claims,and will do whatever they can to reduce/refuse those claims.

An ECU full of overboost/timing pull/and other warnings won't exactly help your case.

I've always taken the view that once you start to modify a car's engine and drivetrain,you should consider the warranty to be invalid,and anything that you may get in terms of warranty is a bit of a bonus if anything happens.
 
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glospete said:
Excuse my ignorance but if I, for example, switch on needle sweep using VCDS will that throw up any code (TD1?) which might be used by Audi to reject a later warranty claim - not necessarily connected to needle sweep but simply because the car has been "modified".
Click to expand...


The checksum in that ECU that you've changed using VCDS won't match that when the car left the factory, so yes, theoretically it will flag a difference or TD1.

But as I've said in previous posts, a TD1 won't automatically mean a warranty rejection, the discussion will take place between you, dealer, Audi UK, Audi AG etc.

It's highly unlikely that a needle sweep mod will affect a warranty claim for a rear wheel bearing. But if it's a warranty claim for an instrument pack or 09 Module, then they may have grounds for further investigation.
 
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S3Alex said:
An ECU full of overboost/timing pull/and other warnings won't exactly help your case.
Click to expand...
I'm talking specifically about tuning boxes. Whilst you might get warnings, these will be indistinguishable from an intermittently failing sensor simply because that's how the boxes I am aware of work (they massage the data coming from the sensors going to the ECU - nothing more, nothing less). The ECU should have been programmed to deal with.this eventuality and flag an error. Specifically, things like timing pull and overboost should not be seen as the ECU thinks it is operating correctly and within designed parameters - it's just the sensors are not telling it the truth. A remap is a completely different beast as the ECU is massaging the figures based on the correct sensor inputs and applying more fuel/boost accordingly.

Whilst I agree you should view any mod as potentially voiding your warranty, there are different levels of risk associated with the different mods. I think Audi - or any other manufacturer - would be on sticky ground rejecting warranty repair work based on the suspicion of a tuning box.
 
audi upgrades
What I'm SPECIFICALLY getting at is that the risk is YOURS,not the manufacturer's.

If you or anyone else is up for a nice long fight with VAG whilst your car is off the road,that's fine.
 
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Without going into this too much - the tuning box is only capable of spoofing/fooling the boost sensors on the induction side. Even then it's not particularly successful at this as it does throw boost range errors. It's not particularly brilliant at coping and reporting in an off-boost compressor surge situation, (which the box in a manual car is prone to) for example.

Granted you can clear these before taking your car into the dealer, or they may think it's a connection problem with the sensor, but what the tuning box cannot do is to fool the other sensors and readings taken by the closed loop system. One such value is the Long Term Fuel Trim, it will be immediately apparent that the car had not been fuelling as expected, compared to a standard car (This will be evident even after removing the tuning box).

This, along with other tell tale reporting and readings in the closed loop system will be factors in deciding warranty - if I were poking about. And all this before even looking in the memory tables in the Simos ECU.

No, this probably can't be detected by your average Master Tech at an Audi dealership, but get someone like Rick or Nick in to have a look at the numbers, and they will spot it a mile away.

So, while a tuning box is unlikely to generate a TD1, it's also fair to say that it's not undetectable by someone determined. And it's not very hard.

In a small person vs. corporation scenario, I rather suspect that the onus will be on you to prove the absence of any prior modifications, as opposed to the other way around. They have nothing to lost by standing their ground.
 
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veeeight said:
They have nothing to lost by standing their ground.
Click to expand...

In today's connected and litigious society, bad publicity is what keeps the manufacturers on their toes. They have to weigh up the cost of repair and likely cost of getting to a point of proving that it isn't their problem to fix vs just doing the work.

This: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30100973 from last week shows how much damage can potentially be done by bad publicity. If I were travelling, I'd avoid that hotel completely simply because I'd view them as not having the right outlook on business.

I'm not saying it's right, just saying how I see it.
 
arad85 said:
In today's connected and litigious society, bad publicity is what keeps the manufacturers on their toes. They have to weigh up the cost of repair and likely cost of getting to a point of proving that it isn't their problem to fix vs just doing the work.

This: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-30100973 from last week shows how much damage can potentially be done by bad publicity. If I were travelling, I'd avoid that hotel completely simply because I'd view them as not having the right outlook on business.

I'm not saying it's right, just saying how I see it.
Click to expand...

£36 for the room, what did they expect. Seriously though, I'm stunned that the fine was in the hotels booking documentation, disgusting.
 
Re the bad publicity - its seems to affect only certain brands, or market segments, for example Bentley wouldn't lose car sales over warranty refusal in modding cases (!).

With Audi, this is an interesting one. Money will still win over bad publicity, in the USA, there is a very well documented class action lawsuit over oil consumption in the 2.0l CAEB engine. Meanwhile, in the UK, there is complete denial over any problems or issues regarding that engine, and no blanket admission or recall.

As Audi is an aspirational brand, people will still buy the cars as it's something they want or aspire to, so Audi seem to take the view that they have nothing to lose.......

Bad publicity affects different people/companies in different ways.
 
The Challinor said:
£36 for the room, what did they expect. Seriously though, I'm stunned that the fine was in the hotels booking documentation, disgusting.
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree totally. And the review was probably badly written and over the top compared to reality. But the publicity has cost them - whether the review was deserved or not.

veeeight said:
Bad publicity affects different people/companies in different ways.
Click to expand...

As I said, just saying how I see it, and I think Audi would be swayed if the cost is negligible vs losing sales. It's all on a sliding scale - if you need a complete new engine, the risk you'll be out of pocket is higher. And as I've agreed above, the modder is taking risk - just that I would see the risk as relatively low with a box compared to a retune - even if the box is cruder and potentially doing more damage (which, in itself, is quite ironic).
 
arad85 said:
As I said, just saying how I see it, and I think Audi would be swayed if the cost is negligible vs losing sales.....
Click to expand...

Unfortunately,I think you may find the reality of it is likely to be quite different,as many have found to their cost even over small claims.
VAG is quite big enough not to be worried by a few potential lost sales.

But,by all means,give it a go.
 
Seems there are still some tuning firms claiming that their flash remaps aren't traceable by dealers. Here's a link to TMC, where they say their flash tune doesn't add a count to the ECU flash counter.

http://www.tmcmotorsport.com/TMCAutoFlash.aspx?SID=2730368367#

I don't know much about this subject, but from what I've read in this thread, I don't think I'd be relying on this 'promise'.....

Guess you have to bite the bullet and accept that if you tune, you should be prepared to give up your warranty.
 
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arad85 said:
Why would I need to? I don't have a box on it....
Click to expand...

I thought that might be the case.

Anyhow the point remains the same for those who do.
 
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There also the issue of a relevant warranty claim being made when the car had been modded - then denying the mods when asked - being a case of fraud.

It is a moral aspect too.

If people were discussing whether or not they could slip out of a shop with items hidden under your coat and getting away with it, I am pretty certain everyone would consider that out of order.
Is denying a mod, when making a warranty claim that much different?
 
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It's another one of those personal choice things. If you tune your car in any way that Audi considers has made certain aspects of the warrant void then you have to accept the consequences.
The engine has been developed to produce quite a strong output reliably, there's always a factor of safety in what they do, but this also takes into account manufacturing variations and really hard driving. The engine is obviously capable of producing more power but an engine developer will be looking at improving componentry to improve the reliability and longevity these changes would increase production costs.

So if you want to tune it and it's your car then you have to accept the increased chances of failure and the loss of warranty if the changes are discovered. Your choice.

But I would suspect the Golf failure is likely to raise awareness at Audi and I wouldn't be surprised if Audi start to look a little closer at certain warranty claims.
 
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