Audi S3 8V - tuning options - some thoughts

This thread is intended for those looking into tuning options for the S3, I am in no way linked to or endorsing any particular company or tuning method, just writing down some observations and thoughts.

For the last few months I have been tracking the progress (or lack of) remaps for the S3 8v (SIMOS12 ECU). In the last month or so several smaller remapping companies in the UK have started to offer remaps for the S3, thanks I believe to CMD Flashtec tools cracking ECU protection in September.

Great I thought, I will get my car remapped...
However then the reality dawned, and the excitement dissipated somewhat. I started putting my sensible head on and looking into any issues that may arise.

Principally, warranty and insurance.

Warranty :
Each time you attend the dealership for servicing or warranty work it will be connected up to OTIS (VAS in old money) which in turn is linked to VW's servers in Germany. A "TD1" warranty code can be flagged if there is a mismatch of the ECU code checksum with the OEM one. A suspicious tech could also work out a remap if they look at the output figures for the engine. Once a TD1 code is flagged it can not be removed by the dealership. Once a TD1 code is flagged for the ECU it is likely that VW/Aufi HQ would refuse any warranty work related to anything related to the ECU, i.e engine, drive train etc.

Of course, if you remove the remap prior to attending the dealership and the ECU map counter is accurate then all should be ok. This is something I considered. However the nearest reputable remap firm to me is a 130 mile round trip, which would have to be conducted twice, once to have the remap removed and again to have the remap reapplied. This is of course at cost, in the region of 50-60 quid a go.

The thought of having a mechanical failure and having to faff about taking my car on a tow truck to a tuners first to remove the remap before taking the car to the dealership did not fill me with much excitement.

A remap you could conduct yourself would solve some of the above issues, however as far as I know this is not yet in existence for the S3 8V. I believe CMD Flashtec have something in the pipeline using an android device and a small OBDII connector, however there is no firm release date for this. If/when this occurs I will reconsider remaps, pending finding the right insurer.


Insurance :
I am currently with Admiral, I pay circa 300 quid for my insurance this includes my H&R springs being declared. I recalled when I did a search on a comparison website the option to include an engine chip mod in three performance brackets. Engine chip 00-10% inc BHP, 11-25% inc BHP and 26%+ inc BHP. Note "engine chip" not remap. After some further digging I discovered that by default Admiral do no insure for remaps only "engine chips". It is possible with some haggling and pleading with Admiral that the underwriters may offer insurance, but this is very much a case by case basis, the default position is that they do not cover remaps.

It would be appear that most mainstream insurers have a real aversion to remapping, however most are ok with engine chips/tuning boxes albeit with the usual slight hike in premium. LV does cover remapping, but for the S3 required an approved tracker.

So on to the "specialist brokers"..well none of them came close to my current quote, most were in the region of double or more, with high excesses and a general poor level of cover. Many had ceiling levels for car values in the region of 25k, not much use on a 35k car.

Now for some, the above is rather academic. Some won't declare a remap to the insurer, some will state they have a tuning box when in fact they have a remap. If, heaven forbid you are involved in a serious collision, you want to know you are fully covered and backed by your insurer. There's not much you can do from your hospital bed, when your car has been impounded by the police for a forensic examination, and the ECU has been sent off for analysis. If your insurer can find a way not to pay out for a large claim, they will. A check of the ECU by an accredited person would cost them small change compared to forking out for a brand new car. Good luck getting cover once you have been blacklisted by your insurer and have a charge for no insurance. Unlikely scenario, yes, impossible, certainly not. I want to enjoy my car, and not see it as something that could screw me over.

So that leaves multi-channel tuning boxes..

For which there are many.
The DTUK (DTE) has been getting some great feedback on this forum, there have been some proven racelogic 0-60 and 0-100 times that are on a par and in some instances beating stage 1 ecu remaps on the S3.

I decided to see if there was anything else on the market, in the same price bracket that offered similar claims. I like to try new things and am all for giving things a go. The DTUK box may have been the safe bet, but nothing ventured, nothing gained. I then came across "Spider Performance".

http://www.dieseltuning.co.uk/spider-performance-pack.html

The claimed headline features of the "spider performance pack"

Adaptivscan™- "the only plug in tuning system in the world which uses Adaptivscan™ mapping software to constantly change its infinitley variable fuel mapping™ to suit the current application. At a computation rate of 40,000 per second, the Spider® can compute and adjust its fuel mapping to a level so precise, and can deliver performance at a level of quality so high, it can compete with "live mapping" whilst remaining removable and transferable to your next car."

5 year product warranty

1 year engine and drive-train warranty.

A full product overview is available here > http://www.dieseltuning.co.uk/technical.html





S3 wiring loom

(3 sensor setup it would appear)

The Spider brand appears to be run out of an office in Hatton Garden, London.

The company behind Spider appears to be Marsden Technologies Limited.
A local news article about the company is available here > http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Tuni...ch-Hull-firm/story-21650793-detail/story.html

Here is a nice video of the manufacturing process >

The claimed performance for the S3 is 360PS and 475Nm, no dyno graph though.

Well I was suitably impressed and for £375 inc vat and delivery appears to be good value.

I have decided to order one and see if it holds up to the claims .

Hopefully the unit will arrive tomorrow, when I will install it and give some feedback. I intend to get the car on a rolling road with and without the box over the coming weeks to get some figures and am considering in investing in a vbox or similar to assess the real world performance.

RAPS3 said:

I'd be careful dealing with this company.

Someone I know looked into a box and decided against them.

A quick look on google and a company check shows a few horror stories and they're about to be struck off.

Trade under various businesses too.

Wouldn't want you to get burned by handing over your cash and not receive your goods.

Click to expand...

Hi thanks for the info..

I will see where the land lies by the end of the week. Payment was made via PayPal/credit card, so should offer some protection if the worst happens. I think it has been established that this is a small outfit. The payment was made to Marsden Technologies Ltd and not Spider Performance Ltd. Marsden appears to be in the black, albeit with some rather meagre figures > http://companycheck.co.uk/company/08066913. Spider Performance Ltd appeared to stop filing accounts in 2012, the same year Marsden Tech was incorporated. Same director for both companies. Would appear that the director has left Spider Performance Ltd to dissolve into the ether without filing the necessary paperwork, good business practice, no, quite common, yes. ..We shall see

Well it arrived!
Delivery was prompt, arriving on Friday.
Came with a manual and printed instructions and photos to install on the S3 which was good.
Cables appear to use VW/OEM connectors which is good.
The unit itself also looks well made.
Now for the U-turn...

After much thought and deliberation I have decided to return it.

Going on from what I said in my first post, I had listened to my gut and my gut tells me that a remap is the way forward and not a tuning box. These tuning boxes were a good option, the only option in fact for some time to improve economy/performance, however the last couple of months has changed things. I intend to keep my car for some time (5 years plus), and has been documented pretty much everywhere a good remap should always trump a tuning box for mechanical sympathy in the long term.

I have managed to find a mobile tuner local to me who can remap the S3, for a reasonable price (£345). Even better, in the event I want to have the remap removed and then replaced (service/warranty etc) it will cost £50 all in for both procedures. This hopefully would only be required twice, maybe even once before the warranty expires on a long life service schedule. The remap file is by Celtic Tuning, which has had some good, and not so good reviews over the years on various forums, but in the main seem pretty reputable. The remap is quoted at 360bhp and 332 lb/ft of torque which I would say is in the more conservative bracket for remaps on the S3, which suits me.

I have VCDS so will do some data logging over the next couple of days before the remap at the end of the week which should give a good indication of power increase. I will post these up once complete.

Obviously being a mobile outfit there is no dyno before or after. However from what I can understand from various sources is that rolling roads have a pretty wide margin for error and have as much to do with the operator and the set-up as they do for the remap itself. The flywheel bhp is that quoted by the manufacturer in the brochure (s3 - 300ps/295bhp) which is when the engine is connected directly to an engine dynamometer. Unless that is replicated by removing your engine after a remap then there are some pretty big variables. Here is one persons thoughts on dynos > http://www.pugheaven.co.uk/POWER AND TORQUE3.htm .

Hopefully the VCDS logs will show a good reduction in 0-60 and 0-100 times.

Insurance, as it turns out wasn't a big issue, insurer has been notified and has agreed to cover for a nominal increase in premium, which is good.

Apologies to those who were awaiting some figures back from the Spider unit. In fairness to http://www.dieseltuning.co.uk the support has been great. Their online chat tool works a treat and they promptly answer the phone. Delivery was also prompt. If you were in the market for a tuning box then these guys might not actually be a bad bet. Can't vouch for the units performance as I didn't want to ****** up my refund by taking it out of its packaging. Also just a heads up for those that are thinking of installing these tuning boxes, you most likely will and if you have lowered the car, definitely will have to jack the car up and remove the under tray (a bunch of screws to unscrew) to get to one of the sensors. It's not quite as easy as just lift the bonnet up and plug in a couple of cables like some other cars.

I'll leave you with a picture, just to prove the unit isn't vapourware as some may have been alluding to.

steeve said:

Great write up, very interesting. But have you decided what to do regarding insurance and the issue of TD1?

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Steve, I did touch on the above issues in the post above. Reference insurance, I called the insurer and explained that there would be an approximate 22% bhp increase ( the upper limit being 25%) before they start getting twitchy. Explained it wasn't a bolt on box but a software map and the operator was fine with it. They said as long as it's being done by a reputable person and that if required I can produce an invoice of the work done in the event of a collision etc then all is well. The additional charge was just over 50 quid and a percentage of that will be a standard admin fee for a change in policy.

As for TD1, for 50 quid i can get the remap removed , changed to stock and then returned to the remap after service/warranty work. Diy remap boxes might also become available in the near future for the simos12/18 ecu.

A TD1 code can be flagged if there is a checksum mismatch between what is on the ECU and what is on the ODIS system. If the ECU is returned to a stock remap, then in theory the checksum is the same as before hence no TD1 code. As far as I am aware the ECU doesn't suddenly record a TD1 code by itself as soon as it's flashed. After all over the course of the cars life it might have several legitimate remaps/upgrades completed by the dealer. I don't think VW/Audi group were expecting the encryption for the SIMOS ECU'S to be cracked so quickly either.

a3_phil said:

Surely that makes TD1 pointless as you could just reflash as you always used to.

I thought that once you'd flashed and TD1 had been set, you couldn't unset it by reflashing to stock.

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If you are willing to invest the time in returning the ecu to a stock remap then in a sense yes the TD1 code becomes irrelevant. The thing is there will be plenty of people out there who get their car remapped who will fall into one of two brackets. Those that don't care about their warranty and will turn up at the dealership with a mapped ecu knowing the consequences. Or those that have been sold a line by a remap company about how the remap is invisible to a dealership and will blissfully turn up for their annual service and get a shock when a TD1 flag is raised.

If you went into the dealership with a remapped ecu and it was flagged TD1 and then you returned a month later with a stock map then you are right the TD1 code would remain and warranty would remain unsupported.
A "TD1" code is just a (Vehicle Check Code) for powertrain tuning indicating that warranty could be void for the particular part of the car that is no longer OEM. This is not limited to the ECU, this could include other things like the intake system, turbo flywheel etc, in which case the technician could manually input a warranty flag relating to what was discovered. This goes for piggyback ECU's and tuning boxes. If you leave them in the vehicle, or even just leave the cabling in there then a technician could flag a warranty code

The TD1 code is not recorded inside the ECU, it will be recorded on VW/Audi's servers against your VIN number.

a3_phil said:

But TD1 is automatic isn't it, i.e. if you remap, the flag is set even if you haven't gone anywhere near the dealer. If you develop a fault it doesn't matter whether you reflash to stock or not, the car is still flagged as TD1 before you get to the dealer.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but I thought that was the big deal this time.

In the past you could remap (and obviously tell your insurer), but when you took it in for service / warranty work you would remove the remap and the dealer would be none the wiser. (This was definitely the case for me with Fords and Bluefin handsets).

Now you no longer have that option as once it's been mapped once, the flag is set and the dealer will know regardless of what you do.

Click to expand...

As far as I am aware it is as I described above. It is based on the checksum of the map that is on the ECU at the time, and what is held on VW/Audi servers. If there is a mismatch then a TD1 code will automatically be raised. It even states in the last paragraph of the letter I posted that not all tuned vehicles would be detected anyway and some would require a manual check of the ECU code/checksum to raise a TD1 flag.

I think the main difference is this..

The TD1 flag system is a much more proactive approach by VW/AUDI to not honour warranty when the ECU is remapped.
Firstly the older diagnostics systems probably never used to automatically check back against a central server the checksum of the ECU.
Secondly that this check is conducted on every occasion the vehicle is plugged into ODIS. So servicing, fault finding, warranty work etc. Remember that even bodywork repairs like a respray of a bumper by a VW/AUDI bodyshop would require a connection to ODIS for fault checking and recording of work complete.

It is just a more aggressive detection regime than before. Whereas in the past an ECU remap may have only been checked if there was a large amount of uncommon warranty work related to the powertrain being requested for a young vehicle, now it is checked each and every time it is hooked up to VW/Audi computers.

I have gleaned all this from various sources on the net, I haven't seen anything concrete to the contrary as yet. Maybe there is an Audi tech on these forums who can confirm either way ?

a3_phil said:

Hmmm, it's all a little vague and I think it could be a lot clearer but Revo are saying this:

http://www.revotechnik.com/support/sales/is-revo-software-undetectable

And I interpret it to mean that even flashing it to stock could trigger the TD1 flag as soon as it's plugged in at the dealer. That would seem to suggest it wasn't set immediately, but may as well be as you can't ever remove the 'evidence' of having flashed at some point.

Click to expand...

I think it suits Revo and everyone else in the tuning business to remain vague about it. It means they can wash their hands of any liability in the event warranty work is not supported and say "well I told you so". Revo are also concentrating on their "stock mode" which is a user changeable configuration with the use of an "SPS" (handheld remote map changer). This doesn't return the ecu to an OEM stock map but Revo's own map with stock parameters. The checksum and file size will still be completely different as the Stage 1 map etc will still be programmed onto the ECU. They mention about the possibility of detection if anything other than the OEM system is used to flash the ECU, then in the next line say this is not confirmed. I believe a couple of people have mapped, returned to stock and specifically asked the dealership to scan for TD1 and nothing was flagged.

The car is now mapped. The power delivery is really smooth, all the way up the rev range. It feels a lot quicker than before. I wasn't able to get very good benchmark figures before the map due to the slippery road conditions. Launch control wasn't playing ball and was losing traction. So from a standing start without L/C I was recording mid 5's (0-60) on VCDS which obviously isn't great. Hopefully there will be a dry spell in the not too distant future and launch control can come into it's own.

There is a 4x4 rolling road near me, if the price is reasonable I might be tempted to put it on there and see what it gets. I wanted to do some VCDS runs but the roads have been slippy of late.

Well.....

The performance increase wasn't in my head, the car definitely has been mapped. This was put on a rolling road completely independent of the remap company so the operator had no vested interest in manipulating the figures. I will still take the figures with a pinch of salt as I think there are several variables that could change the % up or down but it's a reasonable indication. Celtic Tuning had the remap down for 360bhp.

The car was running half a tank of Tesco Momentum 99 ron, tyres were greasy having just rained and spare wheel remained in the boot.