Sachs organic questions

RustyBucket

RustyBucket

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I've just started experiencing the dreaded clutch slip on my 2006 S3 since addind CAI and TBE to otherwise stock set up. From everything I've read Sachs will give me as close to OEM feel as anything else (a bit harder but not too bad) so I think that's the route I'm going to go. So which clutch do I go for? Do I need to replace flywheel too (most seem to think yes but interested in opinions) and what's DMF?

I'm going stage 2 in November so need to get this sorted before that and was wondering if someone could tell me exactly what I need to spec and also recommend somewhere for fitting. I know AMD have been talked about providing clutch and fitting services and they are an option as only an hour or so away but can anyone recommend somewhere in or around the High Wycombe area in Buckinghamshire?
Cheers
 
DMF is a dual mass flywheel thats already on the car whereas SMF is a single mass flywheel and most lads going stage 2+ fit these with the stage 2 organic clutch..

The thing is with them though, they make the clutch really heavy with the SMF as opposed to DMF feel. The difference is the torque tolerancies of both flywheels.. The DMF doesnt handle all the power of 2+ whereas the SMF will.. The chatter off the SMF is terrible, especially with uprated engine mounts and the clutch is very stiff as mentioned.. Its either on or off in my opinion...

Youd probably get away with the sachs organic and a DMF for oem feel, but me personally wouldnt take the car above stage 2 as I dont know the exact torque tolerance figures of the DMF.. Someone else could probably fill you in on that 1...

As far as fitting a new DMF... I would!

The gearbox is off anyway and the labour charge will be minimal to do that too and that way you'll have a full new setup... Whereas if you only fit the clutch and the dmf starts to play up shortly afterward then you'll need to foot the full labour bill for that aswell as the cost of the dmf itself, so in my opinion its a no brainer :)
 
Thanks for the detailed reply. I'm not planning on going above stage 2 but then again I wasn't planning on modding this car until I joined the forum :eek:

For now I'm going to stick as close to OEM feel as I use the car everyday.......any time and for any reason :kissmyrings:

For the DMF am I correct in thinking that Sachs do not make one of these only the SMF and that people mate the Sachs clutch to a LUX flywheel? Are there any other clutch 'bits' that should be replaced at the same time?

Cheers
 
I've ran my sachs organic clutch with Luk flywheel at stage 2+ for 4000 miles and 3000 miles stage 1 before that.
Totally up to the job with only a slightly heavier pedal.
Alex on here ran this setup past stage 2+ and from memory he removed it when going bigger turbo.
Smf is personal choice but I haven't heard one that sounded ok yet.

How's the powervalve?
 
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Sachs Clutch
LUk flywheel
Luk concentric slave
 
Hi mate - I'm in High Wycombe as well and have had stage2+ done by The Phirm down In Hartey Wintney near Basingstoke way - the guys there are awesome.

I too need to have a new clutch fitted and am also going to go down the Sachs organic route with new DMF.

Give The Phirm a call - Paul is on the front desk and is full of info. They had two other S3's down there when I went - one at 650bhp and the other running the Sachs organic kit

http://www.thephirm.co.uk
 
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AndyParker said:
Hi mate - I'm in High Wycombe as well and have had stage2+ done by The Phirm down In Hartey Wintney near Basingstoke way - the guys there are awesome.

I too need to have a new clutch fitted and am also going to go down the Sachs organic route with new DMF.

Give The Phirm a call - Paul is on the front desk and is full of info. They had two other S3's down there when I went - one at 650bhp and the other running the Sachs organic kit

http://www.thephirm.co.uk
Click to expand...


Hi Andyparker just a question you mentioned a new dmf will that be a standard one or will it be uprated? I'm going stage 2+ soon so when the clutch does slip I want to know my options
 
I'm not 100% sure but suspect it's just a standard OEM replacement - it just says "Dual Mass Flywheel" on the quote Paul at the Phirm provided me with. I'll check when I speak to him over the next few days.
As others have said there is not a requirement to change the DMF and nor do I think it gives any specific gains - the main point of changing it is that whilst everything is out then there's no labour cost in replacing it. If it goes at a later date then you're looking at another 6 hours of labour to change the DMF and you'll kick yourself for not doing it at the same time.

The general consensus is that the Sachs organic kit and OEM DMF are good for c400lb of torque (S3Alex took his to 440lb before changing) and so are more than a match for Stg2+ and are as close to stock feel as you can get. You'd need to consider something higher spec and SMF if you are into lots of drag race starts or something more than stage 2+.
 
If your existing set up is slipping then there is every chance the surface of the DMF will be showing signs of overheating, such as bluing and cracks if it's sliiping badly. This effectively means the DMF is no good anyway to be used on a new clutch. For the cost and whilst you have it apart it's a no brainer to replace the DMF.

Karl
 
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Thanks chaps. I hear what you guys are saying if the box is out then it's a no brainer to change it while changing the clutch. I haven't had any issues with my clutch so far (touch wood!) and have been mapped to stage 1 last the last year and a half so just getting my head around what needs to be done.
 
Thanks guys, is anyone able to supply part numbers for all the bits required? AMD are looking at over a grand just to supply!!!!!! Is this what others have been paying recently?

Marshy said:
I've ran my sachs organic clutch with Luk flywheel at stage 2+ for 4000 miles and 3000 miles stage 1 before that.
Totally up to the job with only a slightly heavier pedal.
Alex on here ran this setup past stage 2+ and from memory he removed it when going bigger turbo.
Smf is personal choice but I haven't heard one that sounded ok yet.

How's the powervalve?
Click to expand...

Loving the new sound track although I'm hearing a tinny rattle \ vibration from the valve when I stand at the back of the car, Nige says this will carbon up over time but did yours do the same thing?

Cheers
 
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Yeah, I'm sure it will be fine, I had the valve propped open about 10% just to give me little more noise on idle so maybe it's something to do with that, I've asked Nige how long he reckons it will take to carbon up so we'll see how we get on :)
 
RustyBucket said:
Yeah, I'm sure it will be fine, I had the valve propped open about 10% just to give me little more noise on idle so maybe it's something to do with that, I've asked Nige how long he reckons it will take to carbon up so we'll see how we get on :)
Click to expand...

How'd you prop it open?
 
smurfworth said:
How'd you prop it open?
Click to expand...
Paul used a large flat headed implement and pushed it down the end pipe to wedge the valve butterfly open then used the clamp in the pic around the top of the valve to stop it closing fully. TBH I've just taken it of as it was causing an odd vibration / rattle on idle, I think this has solved it but I've 'volunteered' to collect one of the kids from school so I can get it nicely warmed up to hear if it's got rid ot the noise. :)

BTW - What clutch setup are you running?
 

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RustyBucket said:
Paul used a large flat headed implement and pushed it down the end pipe to wedge the valve butterfly open then used the clamp in the pic around the top of the valve to stop it closing fully. TBH I've just taken it of as it was causing an odd vibration / rattle on idle, I think this has solved it but I've 'volunteered' to collect one of the kids from school so I can get it nicely warmed up to hear if it's got rid ot the noise. :)

BTW - What clutch setup are you running?
Click to expand...

Ah right, I didn't know if you could adjust the actuator on the valve like you can on a turbo.

My clutch? Standard as far as I know. Car was stock when I bought it and only has a revo intake as far as performance parts go.
 
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If i remember rightly as spoke to luk last week dmf has torque capacity of 520/540nm so perfectly capible of stg 2+ thats nearly mapped 3.0tdi torque capability. Cant remember clamping force on clutch plate can find out tomoz when i get back to work im just about to do this to mine sachs stg 1 clutch, plate and concentric near on £500 and dual mass luk is 270ish to me i think. I dont have to worry about labour though
 
Marshy said:
The first two look like the correct ones
The last one is smf isn't it?
Click to expand...

Ah....yes you're right, I'll cross that one off the list then

Dave@remaps said:
If i remember rightly as spoke to luk last week dmf has torque capacity of 520/540nm so perfectly capible of stg 2+ thats nearly mapped 3.0tdi torque capability. Cant remember clamping force on clutch plate can find out tomoz when i get back to work im just about to do this to mine sachs stg 1 clutch, plate and concentric near on £500 and dual mass luk is 270ish to me i think. I dont have to worry about labour though
Click to expand...

Yeah, that would be good thanks. Do you know if LUK just make the one DMF for the S3 8P so if you find one at a good price then that one will be the correct one?
 
RustyBucket said:
Ah....yes you're right, I'll cross that one off the list then



Yeah, that would be good thanks. Do you know if LUK just make the one DMF for the S3 8P so if you find one at a good price then that one will be the correct one?
Click to expand...
I will have to speak to them tomoz when i get to work i can get part numbers then i dont know you will prob find its the same flywheel as 2.0tdi as clutch is pretty much the same
 
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Dave@remaps said:
dmf has torque capacity of 520/540nm so perfectly capible of stg 2+ thats nearly mapped 3.0tdi torque capability.
Click to expand...
The B8 standard 3.0 TDI makes 500Nm my remapped car makes 720Nm so a tad more than 540 Nm.
A hybrid turbo will get you over 800Nm but the clutch starts to struggle a bit then.
Karl.
 
desertstorm said:
The B8 standard 3.0 TDI makes 500Nm my remapped car makes 720Nm so a tad more than 540 Nm.
A hybrid turbo will get you over 800Nm but the clutch starts to struggle a bit then.
Karl.
Click to expand...
Thats the newer cr 3.0tdis not the pre 2008 3.0 found in b7s c6s so on there only 233hp 450nm mapped 275hp 540/550nm
how are you making 720nm on yours what else has been done stg 1 on a b8 in 100nm 60hp
 
Rick from Unicorn worked his magic with the map then the DPF and cat have been removed, straight through exhaust and a bigger intercooler are the main changes. Would like to see what it does with the water meth and other small changes I have made to it since it was on the dyno at MRC. Have a look at the build thread it linked in my signature.
Karl.
 
desertstorm said:
Rick from Unicorn worked his magic with the map then the DPF and cat have been removed, straight through exhaust and a bigger intercooler are the main changes. Would like to see what it does with the water meth and other small changes I have made to it since it was on the dyno at MRC. Have a look at the build thread it linked in my signature.
Karl.
Click to expand...
sounds good are you going to do garrett gtb2566vk hybrid on it?
why water meth your intake temps shouldnt be that high or you thinking for more power i was going to water meth my a3 8l 1.9 quattro but opted for nos with hybrid turbo as cools intake temps to
 
I may aswell give some input seeing as I've only just had my clutch put in yesterday! Lol
I bought a Loba SMF clutch from mark at brotek and I didn't have a clue what to get but if you shop around, there are horror stories with every clutch! I took marks advice after telling him what I plan to do with my car. (Stage 2+)
After reading about the SMF clutches, I was a bit anxious what with the noise on idle, heavy clutch pedal, and not great in traffic...
I can now tell you after just 1 day that I'm extremly happy with my choice and marks recommendation!!
I was shocked that there is no noise what so ever, it's as quiet as my old DMF clutch! Seriously!
The clutch pedal is heavier but not anywhere near as bad as I thought it was gona be!
The bite around town when in first gear is a bit trickier than oem but it's Definately not as bad as some people said it was gona be! At least I know now that I can defjnately get used to this new clutch and the rewards from having this when I go to stage 2+ will be fantastic!
My 2 sence!!
 
Compkiler said:
I may aswell give some input seeing as I've only just had my clutch put in yesterday! Lol
I bought a Loba SMF clutch from mark at brotek and I didn't have a clue what to get but if you shop around, there are horror stories with every clutch! I took marks advice after telling him what I plan to do with my car. (Stage 2+)
After reading about the SMF clutches, I was a bit anxious what with the noise on idle, heavy clutch pedal, and not great in traffic...
I can now tell you after just 1 day that I'm extremly happy with my choice and marks recommendation!!
I was shocked that there is no noise what so ever, it's as quiet as my old DMF clutch! Seriously!
The clutch pedal is heavier but not anywhere near as bad as I thought it was gona be!
The bite around town when in first gear is a bit trickier than oem but it's Definately not as bad as some people said it was gona be! At least I know now that I can defjnately get used to this new clutch and the rewards from having this when I go to stage 2+ will be fantastic!
My 2 sence!!
Click to expand...
Did you get the whole loba kit im still toying with smf or dmf as resale if its noisy can put people off and done a fair few sm conversions on other cars and are noisy but if its as quiet as you say il look into it what kit did you opt for?
 
I can send you a video of how quiet she is then! Only way to prove it really as some people always big up there own gear if you know what I mean lol!
 
In general SMFs will be noisier at idle and especially so with the aircon engaged but it's a personal choice.

Once moving I'd defy anyone to notice the difference from a noise point of view.

The Loba has had issues with engagement at high rpm and needs the appropriate fix which has been posted up.

There are as has been said horror stories with every clutch but I can only vouch for mine which has been excellent.
 
It seems some SMF set ups are quiter compared to others and a lot of this is down to the actual weight of the SMF. If it is a lightweight one you will have more noise, the heavier SMF set ups seem to work better, the design of the clutch springs in the clutch hub also affects the results. Filling the transmission with thicker oil helps to reduce some of the noise.
http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/flywheel/gear_rattle.htm
 
I'm also in two minds as to what flywheel to get. I had a SMF in my fabia vrs but that was out of necessity rather than preference and it was rather rattly on idle. Would rather stick with a DMF for the s3 if it will cope with stage 2+.
 
Armsstrong, i bought my Loba clutch and smf from Mark at Brotek and its fantastic! I have no noise what so ever and the biting point is perfect! Even the clutch pedalisnt no where near as stif as i thought it was going to be :)

Well chuffed! I bought the Stage 3 Clutch for stage 2+ and rapid starts ;-)
 
The weight of the clutch doesn't bother me. I prefered the way the clutch felt in my vrs (quite heavy) to the s3. How much did you pay for the clutch kit if you don't mind me asking and have you got any videos of how it sounds? An uprated clutch is the last thing I need to do before I can get some stage 2+ software being loaded on to the s3.
 
Ill try take a video tomorrow and post it up for you! I think you will be surprised tho :)
 
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