It has everything to do with how the car is strapped down. If the car climbs off the rear roller at any point the figure will be greatly inflated.
Rick
Rick
revo stage 2+ under power.....
- Thread starter Nurseys3
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s3_trev
Northern Ireland
Man that sucks! I would be very very disappointed if that's all my car made on stage 2+. In fact I would probably ask for my money back and go somewhere else! Its just about past stage 2 power. You sure you got the right map? lol.
http://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/software/audi/s3/81/stage-2-plus/#.VCmv1vldV8E
http://www.revotechnik.com/product-details/software/audi/s3/81/stage-2-plus/#.VCmv1vldV8E
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Alex man its all about the power dude!!! but i know what you are saying it does sound better saying it down the pub i will admit that haha.
But it is abit disheartening (you would never know as you arent really going to come up with any compertition 495bhp)
of someone having the same car same mods and being 40-50bhp more than you thats why the questions get asked.
Plus the 408flb helped me keep in front of the R8 the other daymust mean something haha.
I know what you mean!
And don't be too sure about no competition....there's one thing I've learnt over the yrs,and it's that there's always something faster/bigger/better just around the corner.
When I started down the Audi road,my car barely made stock power and I did find that a bit disheartening after all the rumours of S3's making more power etc,and then all the problems we had getting it to run Stg2 power without misfires etc.
I'd honestly take the torque over power any day on a road I think......one of my two Cosworths was set up with torque rather than top end power in mind and it did the job very nicely......only 440bhp,but a shedload of usable torque.
I didnt know that, so really to get a full result with 2 cars they would need to be measured when straped down, same position on the rollers etc.
i really didnt know that, fort it was all to do with the car not also how its on the rollers.
Learnt something new today.
So NerseysS3 could just be a poor reading on the roller due to the way it was on there?
I had 5 minutes spare earlier on my way home so thought id do a log or 2, didn't get as many done as I was going too but thought I might aswell it cant hurt! so I thought chuck them on here just in case one of you clever bunch says ****** hell that's a bit off! ill do some others tomorrow anyway.
well I did have a daydream earlier and think what if its something up map wise like being the wrong one or something... I didn't pay for the map, was already on the car but I do have a invoice for it..
Hi Guys, this is just an idea so please don't ridicule me :s
When you guys load your pride and joy on the rollers do you disable the ESP and TCS. I only ask this as im sure it would be really easy to forget especially on a day that back to back power runs are being done... and not to mention the excitement of seeing your pride an joy on the rollers
Also im sure its not always you that loads it on the rolling road but most of the time the operator, the mix in the fact that i believe the ESP and TCS are turned off in 2 stages, having to hold down the button for a number of seconds....
Then even when disabled is it truly off ? is there a fuse that can be pulled to turn it off completely....
To be honest im new to the S3 so im not completely sure how all the systems work or how they affect different things ! but surely it would only take one Drum/roller on the rolling road to have slightly less resistance to cause a problem with the ESP and TCS as the wheel on that particular roller will accelerate quicker, the ECU will think your having a horrible accident and cut/move power and torque around to a wheel that isn't accelerating as quickly then that wheel will have the same problem and you go in to a never ending spiral of problems....
For instance i have noticed with mine when giving it the beans should you get any wheel slippage the car cutts power and not just for that initial spin/slip it seems to be down on power for the duration on that gear almost like the boost has been turned down to limit torque then when changing into the next gear full boost/power is resumed.....
Is the same thing happening on the rolling roads ? and obviously because our cars are 4wd and not 2wd the problem is even bigger especially when all those diffs are trying to shift power around...
Just an idea, what do you guys think ?
Rich
When you guys load your pride and joy on the rollers do you disable the ESP and TCS. I only ask this as im sure it would be really easy to forget especially on a day that back to back power runs are being done... and not to mention the excitement of seeing your pride an joy on the rollers
Also im sure its not always you that loads it on the rolling road but most of the time the operator, the mix in the fact that i believe the ESP and TCS are turned off in 2 stages, having to hold down the button for a number of seconds....
Then even when disabled is it truly off ? is there a fuse that can be pulled to turn it off completely....
To be honest im new to the S3 so im not completely sure how all the systems work or how they affect different things ! but surely it would only take one Drum/roller on the rolling road to have slightly less resistance to cause a problem with the ESP and TCS as the wheel on that particular roller will accelerate quicker, the ECU will think your having a horrible accident and cut/move power and torque around to a wheel that isn't accelerating as quickly then that wheel will have the same problem and you go in to a never ending spiral of problems....
For instance i have noticed with mine when giving it the beans should you get any wheel slippage the car cutts power and not just for that initial spin/slip it seems to be down on power for the duration on that gear almost like the boost has been turned down to limit torque then when changing into the next gear full boost/power is resumed.....
Is the same thing happening on the rolling roads ? and obviously because our cars are 4wd and not 2wd the problem is even bigger especially when all those diffs are trying to shift power around...
Just an idea, what do you guys think ?
Rich
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The TC/ESP doesn't switch off completely,and not in two stages either.
Hit the switch,and TC is disabled.
ESP still works under braking,and cannot be disabled.
The way the TC works is by applying braking to the slipping wheel,and that limits torque transfer.....not a great system,but it's what we have.
The Haldex is also not a full time 4WD system,and works via an electrohydraulic clutch,that links the gearbox via a transfer case,to the rear wheels via an open rear diff.
The aftermarket controller limits a lot of it's shortcomings,as does a proper LSD at the front(as the stock car only has an open diff).
Hit the switch,and TC is disabled.
ESP still works under braking,and cannot be disabled.
The way the TC works is by applying braking to the slipping wheel,and that limits torque transfer.....not a great system,but it's what we have.
The Haldex is also not a full time 4WD system,and works via an electrohydraulic clutch,that links the gearbox via a transfer case,to the rear wheels via an open rear diff.
The aftermarket controller limits a lot of it's shortcomings,as does a proper LSD at the front(as the stock car only has an open diff).
Hi Alex,
I will check mine later as im sure when i press the button it goes TCS disabled and you get the message on the display inbetween the rev counter and speedo and then if you hold it im sure it said ESP disabled also. The wife is in the car ATM so will check when she is back
I was playing with the button the otherday to try and turn off the 4k rev limit when stationary.....
So anyway surely this will mess up on a rolling road ? As the system will think one or more wheels have lost traction if they are accelerating at different speeds, and then try and correct for this ?
I will check mine later as im sure when i press the button it goes TCS disabled and you get the message on the display inbetween the rev counter and speedo and then if you hold it im sure it said ESP disabled also. The wife is in the car ATM so will check when she is back
I was playing with the button the otherday to try and turn off the 4k rev limit when stationary.....
So anyway surely this will mess up on a rolling road ? As the system will think one or more wheels have lost traction if they are accelerating at different speeds, and then try and correct for this ?
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What model yr is yours?
Mine certainly doesn't do that...it's an 08.
If the car is properly tied down,traction should not be an issue.
Just been reading this, quite interesting really how it all works....
Haldex Traction LSC multi-plate clutch with ECU electronic control, acting as a pseudo center differential.
Open rear differential, no EDL.
Open front differential, EDL.
How: Normally front-wheel drive vehicle. A Haldex Traction LSC unit may divert up to a maximum 100% of the torque to the rear axle as conditions warrant. Many people find the torque distribution on Haldex Traction systems confusing. Under normal operating conditions, the Haldex LSC clutch operates at 5% (divide 5% between front and rear, and 97.5% torque goes to the front, and 2.5% goes to the rear). Under adverse conditions where both front wheels lose traction, the Haldex clutch can lock at 100% clamping force. This means, that since there is no torque transferred to the front axle, all torque (minus losses) must be transferred to the rear axle. The torque split between left and right wheels is achieved with a conventional open differential. If one side of the driven axle loses grip, then the Electronic Differential Lock (EDL) controls this. EDL brakes a single spinning wheel, and therefore torque gets transferred to the opposite wheel via the open differential. On all transverse-engined cars with the Haldex Traction LSC four-wheel drive system, the EDL only controls the front wheels, and not the rear.
In vehicles equipped with EDL on the front wheels only, the car will not move if both front and one of the rear wheels loses traction.
Again, due to limitations of Electronic Differential Lock (see quattro IV description above), in off-road conditions it is enough for one front and one rear wheel to lose traction and the car will not move.
The Haldex Traction system is more reactive than preventative, in that there must be a difference in slip (or rotational speed) of the two axle systems before the Haldex operates and sends torque to the rear axle. This is not the same as wheel spin, as the system can react in less than the full rotation of any wheel on the vehicle. The Torsen's permanent 'full-time' even torque split under non-slipping conditions makes slipping less likely to start.
The Haldex Electronic Control Unit (ECU) disengages the Haldex clutch in the centre coupling as soon as brakes are applied to allow ABS work properly. When performing tight low-speed turns (e.g. parking) the clutch is disengaged by Electronic Control Unit to avoid "wind-up" in transmission. When Electronic Stability Programs (ESP) are activated the Haldex is disengaged to allow the ESP system to effectively control the vehicle. This applies under acceleration and deceleration conditions.
Haldex Traction LSC multi-plate clutch with ECU electronic control, acting as a pseudo center differential.
Open rear differential, no EDL.
Open front differential, EDL.
How: Normally front-wheel drive vehicle. A Haldex Traction LSC unit may divert up to a maximum 100% of the torque to the rear axle as conditions warrant. Many people find the torque distribution on Haldex Traction systems confusing. Under normal operating conditions, the Haldex LSC clutch operates at 5% (divide 5% between front and rear, and 97.5% torque goes to the front, and 2.5% goes to the rear). Under adverse conditions where both front wheels lose traction, the Haldex clutch can lock at 100% clamping force. This means, that since there is no torque transferred to the front axle, all torque (minus losses) must be transferred to the rear axle. The torque split between left and right wheels is achieved with a conventional open differential. If one side of the driven axle loses grip, then the Electronic Differential Lock (EDL) controls this. EDL brakes a single spinning wheel, and therefore torque gets transferred to the opposite wheel via the open differential. On all transverse-engined cars with the Haldex Traction LSC four-wheel drive system, the EDL only controls the front wheels, and not the rear.
In vehicles equipped with EDL on the front wheels only, the car will not move if both front and one of the rear wheels loses traction.
Again, due to limitations of Electronic Differential Lock (see quattro IV description above), in off-road conditions it is enough for one front and one rear wheel to lose traction and the car will not move.
The Haldex Traction system is more reactive than preventative, in that there must be a difference in slip (or rotational speed) of the two axle systems before the Haldex operates and sends torque to the rear axle. This is not the same as wheel spin, as the system can react in less than the full rotation of any wheel on the vehicle. The Torsen's permanent 'full-time' even torque split under non-slipping conditions makes slipping less likely to start.
The Haldex Electronic Control Unit (ECU) disengages the Haldex clutch in the centre coupling as soon as brakes are applied to allow ABS work properly. When performing tight low-speed turns (e.g. parking) the clutch is disengaged by Electronic Control Unit to avoid "wind-up" in transmission. When Electronic Stability Programs (ESP) are activated the Haldex is disengaged to allow the ESP system to effectively control the vehicle. This applies under acceleration and deceleration conditions.
Mines a 58 plate 2009 so one of the first face lifts.
I agree with things being tied down correctly, but again this is easier to get wrong with a 4wd i think ? even when looking for places to strap it down you may have more leverage on the front than the back or visa versa and then as the above says it doesn't even take one full rotation in difference before the system clicks in. Then factor in that how the system reacts on a rolling road will be completely different to a real road i would imagine ? When on the road if the system applies the brake to one axle then it will take longer to slow that wheel with 1.5 ton pushing it around than it would on a rolling road, when all you will be slowing is the weight transfer of the roller.... so once the wheel that had a different speed has been bought under control it may well be that the wheel that was going slower is now going faster so now that wheel needs to be pulled in line with the others wheels and this is where that cycle comes into play....
I guess what i am trying to say is when traveling on the road you have one fixed contact patch with identical friction/rolling resistance etc etc and thats the road, then you have 4 driven wheels driving the car forwards on that fixed surface. Then because the surface is fixed its more difficult to have different wheel acceleration between the 4 wheels.
However on a rolling road you have 4 moving wheels on 4 moving contact patches, surely its far easier for wheels to accelerate at different rates because of this and this inturn triggers the TCS etc a brake disc binding on a rolling road i imagine could be enough to set it off...
BTW this is only how i see it in my head and im just putting my thoughts out there.... If it feels right on the road then maybe its how the car reacts on the rollers and how all these systems try and keep things in check...
Is there not a big fuse somewhere that can be pulled to totally disable it ? just like you can with the ABS.
I agree with things being tied down correctly, but again this is easier to get wrong with a 4wd i think ? even when looking for places to strap it down you may have more leverage on the front than the back or visa versa and then as the above says it doesn't even take one full rotation in difference before the system clicks in. Then factor in that how the system reacts on a rolling road will be completely different to a real road i would imagine ? When on the road if the system applies the brake to one axle then it will take longer to slow that wheel with 1.5 ton pushing it around than it would on a rolling road, when all you will be slowing is the weight transfer of the roller.... so once the wheel that had a different speed has been bought under control it may well be that the wheel that was going slower is now going faster so now that wheel needs to be pulled in line with the others wheels and this is where that cycle comes into play....
I guess what i am trying to say is when traveling on the road you have one fixed contact patch with identical friction/rolling resistance etc etc and thats the road, then you have 4 driven wheels driving the car forwards on that fixed surface. Then because the surface is fixed its more difficult to have different wheel acceleration between the 4 wheels.
However on a rolling road you have 4 moving wheels on 4 moving contact patches, surely its far easier for wheels to accelerate at different rates because of this and this inturn triggers the TCS etc a brake disc binding on a rolling road i imagine could be enough to set it off...
BTW this is only how i see it in my head and im just putting my thoughts out there.... If it feels right on the road then maybe its how the car reacts on the rollers and how all these systems try and keep things in check...
Is there not a big fuse somewhere that can be pulled to totally disable it ? just like you can with the ABS.
So I have had a play with my ESP button and it works in the following way:
One press = ASR off
Press and hold = ESP and ASR off
Press again and all back on.
One press = ASR off
Press and hold = ESP and ASR off
Press again and all back on.
Attachments
From the Audi website:
"The electronic stabilisation program (ESP) makes the vehicle easier to control in handling situations close to the limit It reduces the danger of swerving and thus improves directional stability. ESP identifies the car's intended direction and response. It applies the brakeson individual wheels, thereby generating one-sided forces that help to keep the car moving in the desired direction. The program uses the anti-lock braking system (ABS), electronic brake-force distribution (EBD), the electronic differential lock (EDL) and the traction control (ASR) system, and is permanently active."
"For today’s typical high-torque engines, a form of wheelslip regulation or traction control (ASR) can increase both comfort and safety, particularly on surfaces with differing coefficients of friction or on slippery roads. It makes smooth starts and acceleration possible through all speed ranges without wheel-spin or fishtailing.
ASR only operates in conjunction with the electronic accelerator (E gas) and uses components of the anti-lock braking system (ABS). If one wheel suddenly begins to rotate faster than the others (slip), ASR intervenes in the engine management system and reduces power until the wheel stops spinning.
ASR improves traction and can help the driver maintain control even if the limit of adhesion is inadvertently reached while cornering. In addition, it reduces tirewear. ASR activation, is indicated by a flashing light in the instrument cluster; it works with the electronic differential lock (EDL) and it is also part of the electronic stabilization program (ESP). ASR can be deactivated with the ESP switch."
So it does use the ECU to limit power ! so could this be the answer ? is your traction control light flashing away whilst on the rollers ?
"The electronic stabilisation program (ESP) makes the vehicle easier to control in handling situations close to the limit It reduces the danger of swerving and thus improves directional stability. ESP identifies the car's intended direction and response. It applies the brakeson individual wheels, thereby generating one-sided forces that help to keep the car moving in the desired direction. The program uses the anti-lock braking system (ABS), electronic brake-force distribution (EBD), the electronic differential lock (EDL) and the traction control (ASR) system, and is permanently active."
"For today’s typical high-torque engines, a form of wheelslip regulation or traction control (ASR) can increase both comfort and safety, particularly on surfaces with differing coefficients of friction or on slippery roads. It makes smooth starts and acceleration possible through all speed ranges without wheel-spin or fishtailing.
ASR only operates in conjunction with the electronic accelerator (E gas) and uses components of the anti-lock braking system (ABS). If one wheel suddenly begins to rotate faster than the others (slip), ASR intervenes in the engine management system and reduces power until the wheel stops spinning.
ASR improves traction and can help the driver maintain control even if the limit of adhesion is inadvertently reached while cornering. In addition, it reduces tirewear. ASR activation, is indicated by a flashing light in the instrument cluster; it works with the electronic differential lock (EDL) and it is also part of the electronic stabilization program (ESP). ASR can be deactivated with the ESP switch."
So it does use the ECU to limit power ! so could this be the answer ? is your traction control light flashing away whilst on the rollers ?
So how did you disable it? Didn't you say you also had strange low results on the rollers?
So how did you disable it? Didn't you say you also had strange low results on the rollers?
Compkiler
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Just switch the TC off,by pressing the button.
My dyno/RR problem is down to the type of dyno(AMD have an eddy current type) not loading the car properly,and also the frontal air resistance on the road adds to load,so the end result is the car will not pull full load and therefore full boost,on the dyno.
On the dyno it won't go beyond 2bar and 495bhp.
On the road,we get the full 2.2bar,and around 530bhp.
Ah I see that makes sense....
I think RR figures can really warp things! You can always chase that peak power figure, when in reality if it's driving how it should does it matter...
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I think you're right.
Rolling roads ahve their place,and give useful trends for setting up etc,but they don't tell you how a car will work on the road.
I was advised that a brake type dyno may provide more accurate figures with mine,but frankly,I can't be bothered hunting one down if it isn't absolutely neccessary.
Alex, Eddy current is a brake dyno, and can normally be configured to alter the load.
On mine, I can hold the car at any RPM full throttle if needed. I can also alter the ramp rate which alters the load applied to the engine during a power run. To be honest, the issue is more to do with the airflow you are getting at 100mph plus, big boost cars tend to see more boost on the road.
To the OP - the logs look fine apart from the curious fluctuation in airflow but this won't effect peak power. I'd suggest that either this dyno reads quite low or you have an issue such as coked up inlet ports which are restricting flow.
Rick
On mine, I can hold the car at any RPM full throttle if needed. I can also alter the ramp rate which alters the load applied to the engine during a power run. To be honest, the issue is more to do with the airflow you are getting at 100mph plus, big boost cars tend to see more boost on the road.
To the OP - the logs look fine apart from the curious fluctuation in airflow but this won't effect peak power. I'd suggest that either this dyno reads quite low or you have an issue such as coked up inlet ports which are restricting flow.
Rick
I I
I know it's not the inlet as just had that cleaned. Compression was done a little while ago, dead on 15 bar on all apparently. Fuel pressure is hitting requested. Should boost not be closer to requested? Wastegate duty is in the 90s across the range apart from a dip down to 50 or so in midrange. That normal?
Boost looks ok, 1.4 bar at 6000rpm is about all the turbo can hold. Dip in N75 - depends where/when it's happening.
Rick
Rick
That all looks fine. If you want to look into it further i would get it back on they dyno and have a few runs done, not rushed.
Thanks, Rick
Thanks, Rick
