S3 v 993

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Guys ,what about the 993 turbo,was featured in evo's all time 10 top drivers cars .You can pick them up for 30-45k.What do you think of them?

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Well, I chose a C4S over a turbo for the same money...

The C4S takes more driving...the turbo is just too easy to point and squirt...and not get the best out of the chassis.
With 'only' 320BHP you have to use the chassis to it's best ability as the power isn't there to match the turbos.

I'd also suggest that an early £30K turbo will be an unwise move...unless you want to spend on it, big time.
 
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In follow up to Glen's (unusually) balanced view on this one it is safe to say that the Yellow bewinged machine win's the bling / posing war! However, on the road they are surprisingly close.


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But the looks are subjective...not everyone wants a be-winged bright yellow 911!

Mine also sounds better! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


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The 996 will pull a few car lengths from low revs - i.e. both cars setting off in 2nd from tickover - but top end there is very little difference.

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The performance is also weather dependant...it's easier to push harder in a 996 with PSM as it removes the limit set by the driver expecting the car to go a bit mad...you let the computer sort it out.
I've has a 130MPH sidewards drift in the wet...and with no fuss or drama, the little flashing orange light reels it in.
So, by way of inspiring more confidence, the 996 seems faster in the wet.

In reality though, a good driver in the 993 reduces this advantage to nothing...or very close to nothing.


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Glen will pull time on me on some roads and I will pull time on others - generally though we will arrive at the same place at the same time without anyone backing off.


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Yup...local knowledge and road surface being the deciding factors in which car actually gets there first...

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I think that the 993 is more supple and that counts on Scottish back roads. I'd guess that if I took the 996 and 993 to the ring on the same day I'd be quicker in the 996 though...

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In fairness to the standard 996, I think a standard 996 would match a standard 993 on the rough stuff.
mine has the track biased suspension kit fitted (X73) so it well known to be much stiffer and lower...great for smooth roads / track...but a disadvantage on the bumpy stuff.

I was aware of this whan I ordered it...it's a small price to pay for less understeer and more throttle adjustability, in my view!


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Guess the answer depends on what you classify as winning!

The winner for me is the silly grins adorning both drivers faces at "point B"


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Indeed...you can't buy that feeling.

Well, you can...but it costs what a 991 costs...
 
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The turbo (whether it be 930, 964, 993 or 996) is a blunt instrument. It distracts from the subtle handling and turns the car into a straight line single trick hero.

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Totally disagree with you. Granted the turbo does take a considerably amount of mastering and not everybody can master it and I think it is a lot easier to drive na cars. Loads of people have owned turbos for a couple of months and then sold them famously stating it had to much power and they couldn’t handle it. For me the exhilaration comes from being able to handle it on all types of roads and conditions.


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The C4S takes more driving...the turbo is just too easy to point and squirt...and not get the best out of the chassis.
With 'only' 320BHP you have to use the chassis to it's best ability as the power isn't there to match the turbos.

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Its easy to point and squirt in a straight line but when you have mastered how to control the power you can then get the best out of the chassis and that’s when the fun begins. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
I'm seriously considering a 993 turbo and agree with you glen that i would be looking at near 40k for a good one. As a bit of a straightliner aswell will give me the same sort of rush as the s3.
 
Ooh...well here is an open can of worms!


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Totally disagree with you. Granted the turbo does take a considerably amount of mastering and not everybody can master it and I think it is a lot easier to drive na cars.


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I totally disagree with it being easier to drive NA cars...especially at pace.

With a turbo, you can corner relatively slowly, in the knowledge that you'll pass everything but the Millennium Falcon on the straights...Not so with a NA car with the torque peaking high up...you have to keep the engine in the sweet zone, and work the chassis harder as you don't have the thrust on the straights to blast past other cars.

I don't agree that there is a mastering issue...most of the 'lesser helmsmen' I know drive turbo cars (not 911s) because thay don't have to drive the car as hard to make a reasonable attempt at keeping up a decent pace.


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Loads of people have owned turbos for a couple of months and then sold them famously stating it had to much power and they couldn’t handle it.


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Couldn't handle it?
That's interesting...

Or didn't like it?

I personally don't like the power delivery of turbocharged cars...it's non linear and physically impossible to balance the car on the throttle in the same way you can a NA car...you just can't do it...it's either boost..or you lift off slightly and loose all boost...not smooth or progressive. Even on well sorted turbo cars, there is a lack of finesse in the power delivery compared to a nice NA engine.

I have never known a 911 driver sell a turbo because he couldn't master it - although you'd be pushed to get that confession out of them, I agree - but many have sold them because it's too boring or sterile (996, 993) or too unwieldy or downright dangerous (964, 930)

Strange that most keen drivers I know in the Porsche circles aspire to a GT3 above a turbo.


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For me the exhilaration comes from being able to handle it on all types of roads and conditions.


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Indeed so...
But being able to handle it isn't the issue for me...it's the involvement...turbo'd cars I don't find as involving as they offer a much higher chunk of thrust that you don't / can't get them to behave like a well set up NA car.

I guess a lot may come down to your driving style...mine does not suit turbocharged cars.


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Its easy to point and squirt in a straight line but when you have mastered how to control the power you can then get the best out of the chassis and that’s when the fun begins. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Fair point...but it is impossible to have the throttle adjustability that a NA car can provide, on a turbo'd car...it's just impossible!
That is therefore a dimension that's missing...
 
You guys are so anti-turbo!
autocar and evo still rate the 996 turbo over the c2/c4.
 
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You guys are so anti-turbo!


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I'm not anti turbo period.

I believe that NA cars are more pleasing to drive...it's a different art, but one ultimately worth mastering.
It's too easy to rely on the torque of the turbo to get the job done.

NA seem easier to drive hard...to the point at which you have to master steering with the throttle...then they become a challenge.

Turbo cars may seem to be harder to master due to the on-off power delivery of some...but once you get to grips with that...that's it. There is no path to master throttle adjustability like you find on a NA car...the boost control systems don't allow you to do it!

NA is more organic, if you will...more natural. To me anyway.

Turbo'd cars are great fun with the huge surge in torque, but ultimately less fulfilling to push hard I find...I find that the driver tires of the non-linear power delivery as it is not possible to make very small changes to the car's line using the throttle.

Each to their own though...as I said, differing driving styles favour different cars.


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autocar and evo still rate the 996 turbo over the c2/c4.

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Autocar? Maybe...I don't read it.

Evo? Funny that when I bought mine they were championing the C4S as the pick of the range...
 
c4s has 5 stars as does turbo.
993 turbo was in the top 10 cars ever.
 
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c4s has 5 stars as does turbo.
993 turbo was in the top 10 cars ever.

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Fair enough...

Although the 993 turbo is a brilliant car...the 'top 10' will include looks, image, performance etc as well as driver thrill.

Having been out on runs with 993 turbos, I can say they don't always sit happily in the group...I can only assume that there are times were 400+ BHP and similar torque is TOO much power to be used to it's full potential.

I can pretty much use my 320BHP everywhere, and the chassis, grip, brakes etc all balance up...maybe on some roads the turbo'd cars have too much torque to allow them to be driven with the same amount of 'devil may care' enthusiasm?
I could see that...

Despite the fact that the 993 and 996 turbos have 4wd, don't assume that you can't get them properly out of shape under power...because you can.
The PSM on the 996 limits it to the point where you have to be a complete nimrod to crash...but the 993 doesn't forgive quite so easily.

I still argue that despite more power, a comparable NA 911 is no slower point to point than it's turbocharged brother (993 C4S vs turbo, 996 C4S vs turbo) on the roads that I've driven in the UK.
My C4S will set limits that I can't breach...and deploy it's power with efficiency...I can't believe I'd be any faster in a turbo as I already have turbo suspension (upgraded...same optional kit as the turbo...and turbo brakes, tyres, track etc)...and I'd not be able to steer with the throttle to the same degree...so i'd have to rely on the torque on the straights to balance the equation.

Different driving styles again perhaps...?
 
Again thanks for the input,i believe the turbo 993 torque split 80:20 to the rear hence the tail happy nature.Would definetly be the one for me though,lhd are £35k,rhd from £40k.
 
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Again thanks for the input,i believe the turbo 993 torque split 80:20 to the rear hence the tail happy nature.Would definetly be the one for me though,lhd are £35k,rhd from £40k.

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Not quite the case with the torque split...
Both 993 and 996 systems are RWD with a differential effect caused by different rolling radiuses from and rear causing pre-load on the front diff...but it actually needs the rear wheels to slip before you get an actual transfer of drive to the front (any more than a few % anyhow)
Hence the C4/C4S/turbos behave like RWD until the **** is hanging out under wheelspin...then the fronts come into play (up to the 20% you mention, as I recall) to hold it there...

But until that point...they behave as RWD....as both David and I will testify!
 
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Totally disagree with you. Granted the turbo does take a considerably amount of mastering and not everybody can master it and I think it is a lot easier to drive na cars. Loads of people have owned turbos for a couple of months and then sold them famously stating it had to much power and they couldn’t handle it. For me the exhilaration comes from being able to handle it on all types of roads and conditions.

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Well allow me to express bipolar oposite to your views again.

The finest 911 I have driven was the 996 GT3 - on track and hard. It was difficult to master, unforgiving but rewarding. The key to it was the throttle response, being able to load the car accurately in corners.

The least satisfying 911 was a 996 turbo. The digital nature of the throttle means that balance cannot be sought in corners and as Glen points out turbos get driven slower through the corner and then faster on the straights.. not good.

The 996 turbo does not need to be "mastered" - it has an array of nanny tools to protect the uninitiated.

I think that Walter Rohl agrees with me on this one too...

Turbo 911s were created for a market - and as far as I can see the predominating features are headline power and pose... Every enthusiast I know covets the GT3 and not the turbo. Go to the ring and you'll be lucky to see 1 turbo, but I guarantee you'll see at least 10 GT3s...
 
another viewpoint from another S3 owner who's in the market for a 993.

I've seen a few turbo 993's and inquired about a few more lately - all the turbo cars have scarey bills as a part of their history compared to the non-turbo models.

993 prices are softening now although some owners are holding out for higher prices (especially lower mileage examples which are on sale or return at some dealers and have been for months). However these cars need to be bought based on condition/completeness of history rather than miles alone.

An interesting question: would you pay £35k for a 60k miles 993C4S (remember only circa 300 came to the UK) or 40k for a decent spec 996C4S? As much as I like the 993 shape more than the 996, I'd part with my cash more for A 996 C4S.
 
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An interesting question: would you pay £35k for a 60k miles 993C4S (remember only circa 300 came to the UK) or 40k for a decent spec 996C4S? As much as I like the 993 shape more than the 996, I'd part with my cash more for A 996 C4S.

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No contest...
996 C4S.

Easier to live with, cheaper to service, better interior (although perhaps not such good materials)

You need to make sure it's got a few essential options on though...like PSE (Porsche Sports Exhaust)
 
40k is cheap for a "nice" 996 C4S... But if such a thing existed then it would be a good choice.

Residuals on the 996 C4S are likely to be stronger than the non S cars.

However, 40k is more like higher mile C2 or C4 3.6 non S 996.
 
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40k is cheap for a "nice" 996 C4S... But if such a thing existed then it would be a good choice.

Residuals on the 996 C4S are likely to be stronger than the non S cars.

However, 40k is more like higher mile C2 or C4 non S 996.

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I thought similar...
Nearer £50k for a good, 996 C4S with good history, good miles and desirable options...certainly mid to late 40s..
 
I've seen mk1 996 gt3's for 40k.
 
So have I, but I wouldn't part with my money..

A GT3 needs to be spot on... and for that a realistic budget of 50K is better.
 
indeed the few 996 C4S I've noticed do have higher miles.

Am I right in thinking 996's don't have the checkstrap issue that 993's seemingly have?

Also should the 993 speedo mileage digits all line up perfectly or say if the car was at 79,500 the '7' digit is slightly raised?
 
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indeed the few 996 C4S I've noticed do have higher miles.

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Think the least costly porsche approved C4S is about £46k

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Am I right in thinking 996's don't have the checkstrap issue that 993's seemingly have?

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Not heard of the checkstrap issue (yet) - but this is a failure principally due to age. The 996s have the rear main seal failure issues though - and I know which one I'd rather expereince.

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Also should the 993 speedo mileage digits all line up perfectly or say if the car was at 79,500 the '7' digit is slightly raised?

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Never perfectly, and if it's just about to turn over to 80,000 the 7 would move a little at about 500 miles to go.
 
David there's a few 993 C4's which I'm considering - also a possible C2. I viewed/drove one for a while a couple of weeks back and have mixed feelings about how it drove compared to my S3. This car had a dodgy checkstrap on drivers door which the dealer was willing to fix but not properly IMO (weld pillar rather than fix properly!)

Also I was suspicious of the mileage and so was my friend who spotted the digits also despite the car's history seemingly backing it up.

Another C4 has been offered to me but has a Turbo S rear spoiler which doesn't suit the narrowbody IMHO.
 
also I should note that I intend to get any prospective car fully inspected but would rather weed out the undesirables first before paying Mr Morgan repetitively..

David did you get your C4 inspected before purchase?
 
Sounds like you have the right attitude... Approach them all with suspicion and buy on condition and preference.

Do you have the 993 buyers guide from the internet? Can't remember who wrote it, but its a good thing to have.

Good luck with the hunt.
 
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David did you get your C4 inspected before purchase?

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I inspected it myself and bought it from a dealer with a 12 month warranty included.
 
Thanks David - I have 2 buyers guides - A 993 buyers book by Peter Morgan and a buyers guide from the Internet written by Adrian Crawford. Both are good reads which I've had for a while.

I'm also fairly well clued up mechanically - one thing I picked up when viewing a 993 once was how the tappets on one car sounded louder than another 993 sat next to it in the dealers yard. Not a fortune to fix but could be indicative as to how the car's been treated IMO.
 
aye looks a good car - he's quite serious about his price isn't he? I think I've seen this car around advertised at a dealers.

I don't think Ebay is a good place to sell these types of cars IMO.
 
Just to add my limited experience on the Turbo/NA debate.
I think it's purely down to personal prefference. I wanted my new car to be normally aspirated, as I felt i'd done the turbo thing with the S3, and I wanted the extra adjustability and instant response you get from an NA car. However, my (200bhp - 600kg) westfield manages to not "feel" as quick as the S3 did in certain situations! It doesn't give the same kick in the back that the (255ish bhp- 1500kg!) S3 did. The westfield is obviously quicker, overtaking doesn't take anywhere near as long, but you still don't get the torque kick.
I have a freind with an S4 (B5), and his dream car is the 911 Turbo, he just wants a point and squirt car, last year he nearly bought a cerbera and I nearly bought an Elise. Just different driving styles and preferences leading to very different ways of exciting from cars.

I've never been in a 911 Turbo, so can't compare that specifically.

I'd prefer a C4S (and a few quid in the bank!) over a turbo, and Evo did say it "was the pick of the 911 range" as Glen stated.
 
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I have a freind with an S4 (B5), and his dream car is the 911 Turbo, he just wants a point and squirt car,


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I'm not surprised...he's used to nothing else! The S4 was one of the worst cars of it's type I've driven...it would not turn in...not a back-road car at all.

But, lots of grip, and very quick in a straight line.


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last year he nearly bought a cerbera and I nearly bought an Elise.


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Blimey! A Cerbera?
Something faster than the S4 but with even less grip...and no better cornering prowess!
Brave man...

Or sensible...since he never bought one!


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Just different driving styles and preferences leading to very different ways of exciting from cars.


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Indeed..

I find it easier to go from NA to turbo as you just have to drop back a few tenths from the NA cornering aproach...whereas going turbo to NA is the harder step, I think.


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I've never been in a 911 Turbo, so can't compare that specifically.

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Very fast...huge shove in the back. But insulating...little noise (it stifles that lovely flat 6 noise)...very composed and comfortable...

Unlike a similar performace NA 911 like a GT3...which is noisy, much harder and more noisy, much more involving...and noisier...and then there's the noise! You'll sell your soul for that noise! It is the most spine tingling noise I've ever heard from within a car.
Sublime.


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I'd prefer a C4S (and a few quid in the bank!) over a turbo, and Evo did say it "was the pick of the 911 range" as Glen stated.

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As I thought....

although i's love a GT3, I'm not good enough to use one properly....so I'd either be dead by now, or the car would be.
That was my choice 18 months ago...C4S with lots of options, or basic GT3. Both in yellow of course!

I was advised against the GT3.

The beauty of the C4S is that you can use it's full potential pretty much every day, in all weathers.

The GT3 is a properly scarey car.
 
Was that a brand new (mk2) GT3? I'd heard that they were a lot less scary.
The friend that I mentioned doesn't go fast around corners just in a straight line. Hence the choice of cars. Standard pub arguments involve "who'd be faster, not just in a straight line!" another mate was tempted by a turbocharged MX5 (which the S4 mate hates) just to be faster than the S4 around the bends!
 
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Was that a brand new (mk2) GT3? I'd heard that they were a lot less scary.


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Yeah, a Mk2 GT3.

But to say they were less scarey would be like saying someone was less of a monster because they'd only murdered 400 people next to the other one's 450.

Slightly less scarey perhaps...but it's all varying degrees of properly bonkers!


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The friend that I mentioned doesn't go fast around corners just in a straight line. Hence the choice of cars.


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I see...


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Standard pub arguments involve "who'd be faster, not just in a straight line!" another mate was tempted by a turbocharged MX5 (which the S4 mate hates) just to be faster than the S4 around the bends!

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I'd suggest that next to a standard S4 a standard MX5 would be just as fast, if not faster, round the bends! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
 
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I'd suggest that next to a standard S4 a standard MX5 would be just as fast, if not faster, round the bends! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

Maybe that's why he's not keen on joining the rest of us on a track daY!

Have you had a go in a 997 yet GLen?
 
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Blimey! A Cerbera?
Something faster than the S4 but with even less grip...and no better cornering prowess!
Brave man...

Or sensible...since he never bought one!

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Leave it /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue_out.gif

I think the Cerbie can be a very VERY good car with a few modifications to the suspension and getting the engine to actually produce the stated BHP. oh bo/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gifs I'm starting to talk myself into buying one again... can we not bring up TVRs I'm trying to be sensible here if I get a new car this year!
 
My mate was very very keen and had already arranged for his brother to take his S4 off him. But after speaking to a few people, the Cerbera V8's just don't work very well! Even TVR dealers with V8's in stock told him not to buy one! And it just scared him off.
With a speed six out of his budget.

I still think they're cool. But I'd never go anywhere near buying one.
 
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I'd suggest that next to a standard S4 a standard MX5 would be just as fast, if not faster, round the bends! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh_roll.gif

Maybe that's why he's not keen on joining the rest of us on a track daY!

Have you had a go in a 997 yet GLen?

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I've driven the new 997 4S on one of those Porsche driving days held at Croft. I put an order in straight away and should have mine just in time for the crappy weather in january.

It feels more like an overall slight improvement everywhere than the 996 as nothing grabs you as novel or too different.

The seating position is much improved and capable of going lower which suits me perfectly. The engine seems to deliver more power earlier, the chrono package is excellent too with the 3-level control though i could live without the cheesy clock on the dash. Im not taken with the dash yet either but it will grow on me.
 
The AJP V8 isn't as bad as everyone makes out I know a number of people with both the 4.2 and 4.5 and they are probably more reliable than the SP6 engine and sound even better (IMO) especially when de-catted to get pops bangs and flames on overrun.

The biggest problem seems to be you've not got much chance of getting one that is actually producing the stated power output from the factory but it's not expensive to have them tuned to be there abouts then you have a SERIOUSLY quick car that ja. Anyhow that's getting a bit too off topic and I'm still talking myself into saying /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/swear.gif it and buying a TVR this summer and having a very large grin until something breaks!
 
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Have you had a go in a 997 yet GLen?

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Nope...and shalln't be rushing into it!I might like it (unlikely...)
I don't like the 997 to look at!
I prefer mine...although the 997 Aerokit looks great! ...but the PSE is tame and not a patch on the late 996 systems sound wise!

Also, with my recently inhereted single status and associated fu*kin' big mortgage, I'll not be changing anything other than my undies for a very long time... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
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