Gearbox help before I shoot myself

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adidasandy

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Great stuff = Had buyer come to view car today, asked if he could take it out and after seeing his insurance details there was no reason not to.
Test drive = Going great, talking about price on way back from 15 min blast out. Got to round about and he pulled away upto 4500rpms and went to change to 2nd but instead of going in 2nd it just crunched, I thought it was just him missed a gear so he tried again and same thing happened. I got in and drive it and it was fine under 4500rpms but over that it wouldn't go into 2nd unless you waited for the box to slow down.
Now needless to say he walked away and I don't blame him one bit bit all parts in that gearbox are brand new from Audi including the 1st gear hub. Spoke to the fitter who does our gearboxes and he said it's pointing to the 1st gear hub sync etc. WTF!!!!! surely not after 750 miles.
I was thinking it may be the slave or master cylinder for the clutch being lazy but was to it would do it in every gear if that was the case.
What to do????????
Not going to sell or even try and sell a duff car so needs to be fixed.
Anybody heard of this happening?
Please note the reason for the box rebuild in the 1st place was for this same reason = crunching in to 2nd.
Before anyone says anything yes it was changed as got given old parts back + I've used him for yeasr.
 
Ive seen similar problems where the clutch pressure plate retaining arms snap causing less clamping force and only noticeable when driving the fault is more like a 'dog' clutch where you gotta match engine speed to tranny speed, good way to tell is start the car feel for any vibration, drop the clutch and slowy let off if you feel the same symptoms as a knackered dual mass then this is probably your fault. But could also be a teethless syncro if no vibration is felt !
 
Car is a S4 B5, clutch is brand new also new syncs, 1st gear hub etc. Every other gear is fine apart from the one mentioned.
Someone said to check the selector rods but I can't see it being that when it changes fine under 4500 rpm.
 
Crunching 2nd would be the 2nd gear (syncro) hub not the 1st. 1st gear hub only comes into play when down shifting into 1st while moving which you should never do, 1st gear does not really need syncro.

Oil will efect your syncro mechanism working, sycro is basically a wet clutch type assembly, the brass ring normally has a finish designed to retain some oil which is forced out as you change gear. With the wrong oil then not as much will be retained and the operation of the syncro will be less smooth or obvious.

A lot of cars suffer with cruchning 2nd if you subject them to a lot of pounfing in 1st. 1st is just for pulling away not racing and you should always shift up to 2nd before anything like 4.5k! Especially in an S4 why on earth you need to pound 1st with all that torque.
 
Please tell me your joking right? pounding 1st gear at 4500rpms, it redlines at 7 so it's far from pounding. All syncs have been changed. I have drove both S4's and RS4's and NEVER had this issue. You should be able to change at alot higher revs than 4500 and still have no crunch. Regardless of torque once clutch is engaged it goes off rpm's NOT torque.
Plain and simple, a garbox should not crunch at all unless diven incorrectly and TBH my granny drives at higher revs in 1st and she don't get no crunching except in her joints.
 
adidasandy said:
Please tell me your joking right? pounding 1st gear at 4500rpms, it redlines at 7 so it's far from pounding. All syncs have been changed. I have drove both S4's and RS4's and NEVER had this issue. You should be able to change at alot higher revs than 4500 and still have no crunch. Regardless of torque once clutch is engaged it goes off rpm's NOT torque.
Plain and simple, a gearbox should not crunch at all unless driven incorrectly and TBH my granny drives at higher revs in 1st and she don't get no crunching except in her joints.
Click to expand...

If that's your thinking, your 'box is obviously faulty. The ones you have driven must have been in spectacularly good condition as i said 01e boxes suffer. It's not the revs of the change, it's the speed of the change that makes it crunch. You notice most big power cars with standard transmission will be driven with respect in respect of gearchanges.
 
It actually goes on the RPM difference between the gear cogs, this is what the syncro hubs have to deal with and the difference between 1st and 2nd is usually the greatest difference so what might be an acceptable engine rev to change between 3rd and 4th might be totally unacceptable to change between 1st and 2nd.

1st is for pulling away and in no car should you try to red line 1st before going into a proper gear.
 
Ok, i didn't explain myself properly. If aduquate time is given between changes the synchro will do its job. If worn it will not.

I understand how synchro's work, I was trying to explain in plain terms about the faulty 'box
 
HibiscusS4 said:
It actually goes on the RPM difference between the gear cogs, this is what the syncro hubs have to deal with and the difference between 1st and 2nd is usually the greatest difference so what might be an acceptable engine rev to change between 3rd and 4th might be totally unacceptable to change between 1st and 2nd.

1st is for pulling away and in no car should you try to red line 1st before going into a proper gear.
Click to expand...
Understand that but 4500 revs is not high at all or is it just not high to me lol
 
Last edited:
Its still an issue that your guy thinks its the 1st gear hub thats at fault when your crunching 2nd. It cant be the 1st gear hub, Syncro does nothing when changning out of a gear (the gear and the hub are alredy in sync). Surely you must have some warrenty if its only done 750 miles?

Byzan, I wasnt commenting on your post but the OP's suggestion that I am joking.

I'd have to see an exploded diagram on the 01E but normally your lower gears have larger syncro mechanisms because they expect a greater difference in gear speed.
 
I have had every sync changed, 1st gear hub was changed because of the issues had with the early S4 boxes and mine was one of them (the collor sticks), so all parts have been uprated from Audi and still have issues. I'm sure I have warranty but what a F'#K on getting the box out again.
 
The "1st gear hub" does both 1st and 2nd.

What happens is the 2nd gear synchro wears out, which causes the grind. The grind noise is the shift collar failing to engage, and the grinding ruins the "teeth" on the front edge of the shift collar, eventually causing it to jam.

The Audi fix/uprated parts, contains new stronger synchros, and a shift collar with extra hardening to reduce the likelyhood of ruined teeth.

Given your description of the symptoms, it suggests the synchro still isnt right. The hub itself doesnt cause the grinding, the grinding is happening because the synchro hasnt matched the shaft speeds to allow the hub to engage.

I guess it could have the wrong oil in it though?
 
aragorn said:
The "1st gear hub" does both 1st and 2nd.

What happens is the 2nd gear synchro wears out, which causes the grind. The grind noise is the shift collar failing to engage, and the grinding ruins the "teeth" on the front edge of the shift collar, eventually causing it to jam.

The Audi fix/uprated parts, contains new stronger synchros, and a shift collar with extra hardening to reduce the likelyhood of ruined teeth.

Given your description of the symptoms, it suggests the synchro still isnt right. The hub itself doesnt cause the grinding, the grinding is happening because the synchro hasnt matched the shaft speeds to allow the hub to engage.

I guess it could have the wrong oil in it though?
Click to expand...

Unless Audi supplied me with the wrong, it has GL4 in
 
Genuine Audi Oil?

I wonder if the 2nd gear synchro is different to the rest, and your gearbox builder has mixed them up...
 
only 1st gear syc is different, been told off a Audi fitter that it could be a lazy slave / master cylinder not engaging quick enough and it's more noticable 1st to 2nd as this has the widest of gears out of them all.
Idea's?
 
1st and 2nd synchros are the same.

3/4/5/6 are also the same, but different to 1st and 2nd

In part numbers at least, not sure if they would be physically interchangeable.

You should have ordered two of 012311247H which are the synchros for 1/2 and also 01E311239L which is the shift collar for 1st and 2nd.

It could be a dragging clutch, hard to diagnose though. Does the pedal feel normal?
 
aragorn said:
1st and 2nd synchros are the same.

3/4/5/6 are also the same, but different to 1st and 2nd

In part numbers at least, not sure if they would be physically interchangeable.

You should have ordered two of 012311247H which are the synchros for 1/2 and also 01E311239L which is the shift collar for 1st and 2nd.

It could be a dragging clutch, hard to diagnose though. Does the pedal feel normal?
Click to expand...

Feel like it bites quite high TBH. It's £96 all in for both master and slave cylinder, if that's not it then anyone want to buy a burnt out S4?
 
How easy/hard is the metal clutch hydraulic upgrade? I did this on my old MG and it was like night and day. I know the S4 has plastic hydraulics but you can fit metal stuff as long as you can get a special pipe made up.
 
HibiscusS4 said:
How easy/hard is the metal clutch hydraulic upgrade? I did this on my old MG and it was like night and day. I know the S4 has plastic hydraulics but you can fit metal stuff as long as you can get a special pipe made up.
Click to expand...

I've never looked at the job yet but I thought they were metal.

Andy
 
Nope, they're plastic.

Earlier cars used metal ones, not really sure what the benefit of changing them is though, I've never heard it called an "upgrade".
 
audi upgrades
Can you not just chuck the car back to the guy who rebuilt the box? Let him drive it and if he agrees it's not right, he fixes it for no more cash?
 
NineNails said:
Can you not just chuck the car back to the guy who rebuilt the box? Let him drive it and if he agrees it's not right, he fixes it for no more cash?
Click to expand...

Problem =
Bought all parts from TPS and they are a parts supplier NOT a garage so when I asked about warranty they said yeah no probs, take it to Audi, they will drive it, remove the box, send box away to be checked and if no fault found I pay the bill BUT after speaking to Audi they told me that if the correct procedure to remove and refit the box has not been carried out the "Audi way" they will void the warranty and make me pay. Had a bit crack with one of the mechanics on the QT and he warned me that I will pay regardless as one way or another I will be at fault. So I'm making sure that it's not the slave and master cylinder before Audi get there hands on it.
I asked TPS if I could get the parts at fault to them (if it's the syncs etc)would they exchange them and I was told I had to follow there warranty procedure which is go though Audi as it's the only recognised garage they will use.
What a load of S#@T.
 
IMO theres no point AT ALL in chasing the warranty aspect of this. Your going to end up with a seriously sore **** if you go down that route.

Theres probably about 2grands worth of labour if not more if you let audi touch it.
 
aragorn said:
Nope, they're plastic.

Earlier cars used metal ones, not really sure what the benefit of changing them is though, I've never heard it called an "upgrade".
Click to expand...

Pipe and slave are plastic which flexes more than metal so the metal upgrade transferes more pedal movement into clutch movement. Also longevitiy is effected but I guess with Audi this is less of an issue than with my old MG which can give up anywhere after 30k!

USP Audi clutch line & metal slave conversion - USP-014

The slave used is just an Audi part off an earlier car, I cant remember which but I used Google to find out. Its the pipe thats the custom part but MRC do it as they have the mod listed as done on their 200mph B5 RS4 Saloon.

Agreed with the above, trying to pursue a warrenty claim is going to give months of strees even in the unlikely event you are succesfull, even if they uphold the claim it will cost you something to have it investigated and sorted. I personally would avoid it and try to source a 2nd hand box or sell the car with the problem for a little less and let the buyer choose to fix it if they like.
 
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