Remaps - Before and After

[Piester]

With all the talk of what remap to go for, thought it might be interesting to get some before and after rolling roads of the various different ones.

This is my AMK before the MTM remap from Kim Collins at QST. The only mod was the Forge DV, done at around 60k (a looooong time ago!).

And after...

Any others - Revo, CC, etc?

 

[MIKE GTR]

Its not going to compare apples with apples, only way to do that would be same car, same RR, same day

 

[Piester]

That's what those where, an hour and a half apart.

 

[MIKE GTR]

What i'm saying is that on a different car on a different day on a different RR, the results could be totally different, so its impossible to compare different maps unless all tested at the same place on the same day on the same car

 

[Piester]

Yeah, point taken.

Still, reckon it's pretty interesting to see the difference before and after for each car individually. Gives you an idea at least.

 

[Matt82]

oettinger vs apr

oetteiner has the typical gay 20vt spike and then tails off sharpish.

apr's plots appear so much better than the usual brands. the only one that ive seen that appeared to be as afftective would be Rtech's (not sure who writes their maps)

 

[Matt82]

Its not going to compare apples with apples, only way to do that would be same car, same RR, same day

the numbers basically dont matter on a dyno. the numbers are a load of **** anyway. its the torque curve that matters

 

[MIKE GTR]

I disagree slightly, its power that makes a car fast not torque - torque is only important in the power spread and how quick you want the car to feel.

I agree RR are normally a waste of time, although proper engine dyno or hub packs are def more often than not a lot more of a reliable messure of your cars power.

The only figure I look for is the ATW's figure

 

[badger5]

oettinger vs apr

oetteiner has the typical gay 20vt spike and then tails off sharpish.

apr's plots appear so much better than the usual brands. the only one that ive seen that appeared to be as afftective would be Rtech's (not sure who writes their maps)

cheeky fecker.. comparing my plots as your own..

r-tech make their own maps..

 

[Matt82]

you do know that bhp is basically a maths equation?

seriously, the torque plot is what makes the difference. its why revo drivers bang on about how quick it feels due to the stupid torque spike they map in making the car feel nippy, but if you look at that apr vs oettinger plot, the apr car will get down the road a lot faster

 

[Matt82]

not at all you mouthy git. where did i claim those to be my own? ive posted those up on plenty of boards to show the difference between one map and another and how it effects the outcome .

cheeky fecker.. comparing my plots as your own..

r-tech make their own maps..

 

[badger5]

POWER IS A CALCULATION

BHP = (TORQUE IN LBFT X RPM) / 5252

TORQUE IS THE DRIVER FOR THIS... MORE TORQUE HELD HIGHER IN THE REV RANGE = MORE POWER

 

[badger5]

not at all you mouthy git. where did i claim those to be my own? ive posted those up on plenty of boards to show the difference between one map and another and how it effects the outcome .

Use my bandwidth posting polts from my site and you call me mouthy git
LMAO

just looked at the link again, and its a very old freebie site.. long since abandoned.. your welcome to it..

still cheeky tho

 

[Matt82]

a quick search on google brings them up, i thought youd appreciate seeing them. i wont link to your site, but do you have any objection to the image being posted? its a great demonstration, but get your facts right bill

 

[badger5]

read my edited post.. the site you found is not one I use for many years now

your plot comparison shows two different tuners.. the crappy Oettinger one I had the misfortune of having originally, and an APR one, which was APR europe (before they turned into REVO) - which was smoother more sustained.

 

[MIKE GTR]

POWER IS A CALCULATION

BHP = (TORQUE IN LBFT X RPM) / 5252

TORQUE IS THE DRIVER FOR THIS... MORE TORQUE HELD HIGHER IN THE REV RANGE = MORE POWER

Lol i'm sure its revs that come into it somewhere - higher torque doesn't neccesarily mean more power and def doesn't mean more revs - V10 Diesel Towrag springs to mind - and yes the theory is the same in petrol.

 

[Matt82]

Lol i'm sure its revs that come into it somewhere - higher torque doesn't neccesarily mean more power and def doesn't mean more revs - V10 Diesel Towrag springs to mind - and yes the theory is the same in petrol.

youre spot on. the torque has to be in the right place. across as much of the rev band as possible. i could find some of my own (ahem, bill) plots (from stealth incidently) from my golf years back. made 170bhp but had a stonking great hole in the torque plot between 2.5k and 4krpm. it still made the full bhp because the torque recovered after the hole (the hole occuring due to a dodgy fuel pressure reg making it lean and timing being knocked back)

my car was slow because between 2.5krpm and 4krpm it had no guts.

so hopefully this thread proves that its not the peak figures that count, its the spread across the rev range, hence why that apr plot up there is so damn good compared to the oettinger one.

 

[MIKE GTR]

I'm sure all the VTEC owners will be on here soon arguing with you lol

 

[MIKE GTR]

Lol i'm sure its revs that come into it somewhere - higher torque doesn't neccesarily mean more power and def doesn't mean more revs - V10 Diesel Towrag springs to mind - and yes the theory is the same in petrol.

Just re-read what you written and see what u mean now, apologies

 

[Matt82]

read my edited post.. the site you found is not one I use for many years now

your plot comparison shows two different tuners.. the crappy Oettinger one I had the misfortune of having originally, and an APR one, which was APR europe (before they turned into REVO) - which was smoother more sustained.

if i can find it again ill put it back it, its a great demonstration to those about to ***** a ton of cash on some new software without knowing what theyre about to get in return.

but no, the oettinger/apr plot is not mine... i just use it from time to time to show how not all maps are created equally

 

[Mr.G]

Interesting read.

I will be going with MTM for my re-map. Looked into various maps and seen a few different dyno plots.

I've just noticed Pieste, that when your car was dyno'd it was front drive? Is this a machine mistake or what actually happened? I.e Removal of the Haldex fuse?

G

 

[Mr.G]

Sorry spelled your name wrong. Piester!

G

 

[badger5]

Lol i'm sure its revs that come into it somewhere - higher torque doesn't neccesarily mean more power and def doesn't mean more revs - V10 Diesel Towrag springs to mind - and yes the theory is the same in petrol.

torque is the driver...
how long its sustained is what makes more power

simple equation, and is non-debateable

 

[badger5]

so hopefully this thread proves that its not the peak figures that count, its the spread across the rev range, hence why that apr plot up there is so damn good compared to the oettinger one.

aka Area Under the curve - greater area, more "powerful and flexible" the motor

 

[Matt82]

so after what youve seen in this thread you decide the MTM plot with the silly torque spike is better than the APR one?! id recommend getting hold of an rtech plot too because the one of those ive seen did look good

Interesting read.

I will be going with MTM for my re-map. Looked into various maps and seen a few different dyno plots.

I've just noticed Pieste, that when your car was dyno'd it was front drive? Is this a machine mistake or what actually happened? I.e Removal of the Haldex fuse?

G

 

[mk1chopper]

Its interesting to see before and after plots to see the gains made as most tuners give figures but most companys providing remaps dont always have a rolling road. If I ever decided to have a remap done I'd want a rolling road done to see what the car was running to start with and what gain the remap has made.

 

[Matt82]

id want to see the plot of what i was expecting to get even befor ei handed over my money!

 

[Mr.G]

No. I've made a decision based on my views of different manufacturers, things i've read, heard and having spoken to many re-mapping companies.

Each car is different not saying that my car will spike and drop as quick as the one listed.

So...

G

 

[Matt82]

Each car is different not saying that my car will spike and drop as quick as the one listed.

So...

G

i wouldnt want to hand over money, crossing my fingers hoping, it didnt turn out like that

the plots are the closest youll get to a visual representation of what youll actually get as opposed to marketing hype

 

[Mr.G]

My car is different to start with or will be by the time i get to MTM. Miltek fitment this week, air filter next week. I'll more than likely have a DV and Downpipe too before i visit QST.

Maybe i'll get worse results, time will tell i guess.

G

 

[JD09]

so after what youve seen in this thread you decide the MTM plot with the silly torque spike is better than the APR one?! id recommend getting hold of an rtech plot too because the one of those ive seen did look good

I was under the impression, from chatter in other threads, that the REVO map graph also showed the same "silly torque spike" . . . ?

 

[Matt82]

yeah, as far as ive seen from the plots produced by their customers cars

 

[MIKE GTR]

This covers it:

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/horsepower_vs_torque/index.html

Very interesting read

 

[Matt82]

and horsepower is the force that keeps things moving. An engine is most efficient at its torque peak, wherever that happens to occur.

i dont like it already. horsepower is not a force. how is it measured? its calculated!

my engine makes peak torque at 6krpm. i am DEFINAETLY not most efficient at 6krpm

BS

 

[MIKE GTR]

i dont like it already. horsepower is not a force. how is it measured? its calculated!

my engine makes peak torque at 6krpm. i am DEFINAETLY not most efficient at 6krpm

BS

I wouldn't have thought there were many road cars out there with peak TORQUE at 6k, even on my skyline peak torque is about 5k with a T78 turbo, cams and 9k rev limit, peak power however is about 8700 rpm

 

[Matt82]

T78. cool stuff, whats the spec of the rest the engine?

yup, mine makes peak torque at 5950rpm or 6000rpm, not looked at the plot in ages. its a fantastic NA plot, torque just climbs and climbs, but its only 2.0 16v so were only talking about a climb up to 145lbft.

makes max power at 6400rpm

 

[Matt82]

but why wouldnt you have thought many road cars would do peak torque at 6k?

 

[MIKE GTR]

Most road cars i'd expect to make peak torque from as low down the rev range as the manufacturer can do, but turbo cars approx 3-4k as they hit full boost.

Skyline is as follows:
Trust T78 with Trust External and screamer
N1 block with Trust cams and Greddy verniers
HKS metal Head Gasket
HKS Oil cooler and relocation kit
APexi Intercooler
HKS HArd pipe kit
Apexi Power FC
Z32 air flow meters
SARD 800cc Injectors
SARD Fuel pump
BeeR rev limiter
HKS EVC 6 Boost controller
The engine hit 598BHP in its previous car but with 700cc injectors, it should be closer to 625 when finished

 

[MIKE GTR]

. its a fantastic NA plot,

Ahhh just noticed the N/A bit, sorry I was talking about turbo cars in general

 

[Westy]

My VCDS logs show my car hits peak torque at around 4K but I dont tend to change gear untill torque is on the decrease at around 5.5K revs. The HP is still on the climb as the torque is on the way down.