Remapped 1.8T FWD Vs standard S3

[S3 HODGE]

I like the look/drive of both of the model's.....They both have there up's and down's like any other car's do. But after owning my A3 and then getting in my S3 now i am sooooo much happier with the S3. Just a personal thing really so im not taking sides.

 

[1animal1]

Jase i agree mate... although i think you'll agree that the useability of the brakes (if upgraded) and suspension would be wasted on a normal road, especially if the S3 had them too - for the average driver which would encompass most of us on here (even if some dont like to admit it)...i really cant see theres much diff....

and to second what hodge says.... after loving my A3 I would still never go back tob it for my daily driver, although i would consider as a weekend project... if i wanted a proper track car i think there are other vehicles id consider first over all Audi's

 

[Ess_Three]

it does....but id like to bet transmission losses on the quattro system are less whilst the car is in motion as the initial 'pull' has already passed.... this is a very wide debate here, i seem to recall Glen saying that midrange his S3 was better or equal than a lot of cars you'd expect to beat it (in different words)

This Glen?
A3 can be certainly as quick in certain circumstances...but in general they are saddled with a crappy set gearbox ratios, so as long as the S3 driver is prepared to get busy with the gearlever, the S3 will be quicker.

Even the quick A3s (into BT territory) struggle to get out of corners / off roundabouts like an S3 can...so you just have to plan the battle well.
On wet backroads, the S3 is streets ahead of your average mapped 1.8T as it just gets out of the corners quicker and with less fuss.

 

[Ess_Three]

regards to PSI..... im sure Glen was running less than 20psi? i know his was turned up higher than it was supposed to

This Glen again?
Mine was running 1.85-1.89 bar - 27+ psi.

 

[1animal1]

yup 'that' Glen..... i wouldnt be quoting ya if you weren't so loose with ya advice

cheers for the insight on the A3.... i always remember how my standard one span when accelerating out of corners depending on the gradiant....

 

[Ess_Three]

I personally think the A3 can be made to go just as quick as an S3, also stop better and handle better.

As a road car?
No chance.

Sort the S3s chassis out, add some grip to the front and you'd be amazed what a capable car it is...add 320+ lb-ft to the mix which it can use, all day, every day, all weathers and you end up with a road car barely slower in the wet than the dry...that a FWD A3 hasn't a hope of seeing which way it went.

It just takes work to get it there...

Don't forget...the S3 is much more adjustable as standard (physical suspension adjustment...not throttle adjustment)

Even if the A3 had S3 power and torque, you have only two means of deploying it on an A3...half that of an S3!


On a stripped out, fully caged track car on slicks, in the dry...the balance may swing to the A3. But for road cars...no chance.

 

[FazS3]

The amount you have to spend on uprating power, brakes and suspension, would it really be worth it?

S3s are not the fastest when standard, but A3s are even more slow! If putting the equivalent mods on a A3 and S3, the A3 would still be slower?

The S3 is so much nicer to drive,I would love for your remapped A3 to meet a standard S3 on a damp or wet day!

You wouldnt be going anywhere in a hurry let alone bends and roundabouts!

 

[Prawn]

I personally think the A3 can be made to go just as quick as an S3, also stop better and handle better.

Sorry Jase, you're 100% on your own with that one!

My arguement has only ever been on a cost basis..... in that an A3 +£2k's mods is still cheaper than a standard S3

If putting the equivalent mods on a A3 and S3, the A3 would still be slower?

Again, that's not really in question Faz, it's obvious that if you add a load of mods to the S3 it's going to be a far better car, you'd have to be silly to disagree with that!

The fact is, an A3 can be bought for £2k, and £2k spent on it will see it quicker in a straight line, stopping faster, and handling far nicer.

That's not to say it'll be a monster on wet roundabouts, but at least with a few choice mods, the A3 isn't mind numbingly dull to drive like the standard S3 is, and it'll still cost less.

 

[1animal1]

thing is though it isnt in my mind (regardles of age) nasty to drive..... neither is it bad at handling when your an average driver on a day to day road booting it left right and centre.... the cost argument is fair, but it is true what they say, you get what you pay for in life and for £4k you lose a hell of a lot of what you would gain for an extra 2k shelled on a high mileage S3.....

 

[Prawn]

it's not nasty to drive at all tim, it's quiet and comfy and sensible and safe, but the steering has no feel, there's no feedback from the car, the body roll is terrible, the understeer is chronic and the brakes verging on dangerous after just 1 hard stop.

It's perfectly ample for getting around, and it's not really all about going all out super fast either, it's about the driving experience, which is undoubtedly lacking.

 

[1animal1]

maybe Nick....but a standard S3 vs a standard A3 (remap or not) ..... the S3 is a better car, opnion based on owning both

 

[Prawn]

we all know that, I've even said it myself earlier in this very thread!

 

[1animal1]

so what we comparing here.... a tuned A3 against a standard S3... thats fair... do the same to both and you have your answer

simples....

 

[ianysm]

I bet it was fun seeing that guys face when you passed him but its hardly a fair competition. Try that against a mapped S3 if you want to play fair!

No matter how much money you throw at an A3...It isn't an S3, so its worse!! I'd rather have a standard S3 than a modified A3 any day.

 

[Prawn]

so what we comparing here.... a tuned A3 against a standard S3... thats fair... do the same to both and you have your answer

simples....

That's exactly what we're comparing Tim! Because you can get a fully sorted A3 for the price of a standard S3 as I keep saying!!! and the A3 will be quicker, corner better, and be far more fun to drive than the S3 for the same money....

obviously if you go doing the same mods to both the S3 will be better, but it'll also cost a good few grand more!

I bet it was fun seeing that guys face when you passed him but its hardly a fair competition. Try that against a mapped S3 if you want to play fair!

No matter how much money you throw at an A3...It isn't an S3, so its worse!! I'd rather have a standard S3 than a modified A3 any day.

Tried it against a few mapped S3's, it's quicker than some, and dead level with some. a modified A3 is still far nicer to drive from a drivers point of view than a standard A3....

Not that ANYTHING based on the 8L chassis will ever be a genuinely decent drivers car, so i guess, it's pointless any of us arguing....

 

[1animal1]

yup my sentiment exactly Nick...8L chassis not the best but then thats down to what you use it for.... from what i remmeber the A3 is better at putting the power down when compared to an Astra say....

regards A3 though and cost argument, you may have a fun car to drive, what you havent got is a fun car to live with, the 2k extra for the S3 is absolutely worth shelling out for...you'd be crazy not to just for the refinement alone, not to mention all weather fun and a quick car out of the box...im afraid with this argument you are fighting a losing battle matey...thats why i and many other ex A3 owners have moved across

 

[Prawn]

ok Tim, fair enough,

What is it about the A3 you find so much harder to live with compared to the S3? I don't find my A3 hard to live with at all really, and don't see how the S3 is really much more refined...

I'll admit the 4wd is lovely to have in the wet weather, but in terms of refinement, I've got half leather electric recaros, aircon, power steering, ABS, all the same windows/mirrors that the S3 has, I've got DIS, and I can easily get 38mpg on a good long run. What is it in the S3 that's more refined? I personally prefer my facelift recaro sports seats to the all leather S3 seats, as I find them more supportive.

I know the S3 is a better all round car, but it's got no more interior toys than a well specced A3, the seats are a bonus, but I've changed mine for very little money to something comparable to the S3 seats.


As for the 8L chassis and putting the power down, it's clearly far better than the astra chassis in that respect. The VXR makes about 230-240lbft of torque, and has horrific torque steer problems. Even when I was running 290lbft at 24psi, I had very few torque steer issues, and it put the power down amazingly well in the dry in all gears but first.

 

[1animal1]

Nick it feels a totally different car, i lived with mine (as i keep sayin) for 6 years and moving into the S3 was brilliant....the gears are less clunky with shorter throws... obviously the quattro... i have a slipped disc and thought the A3 seats were great, although IMO the S3's are far better for comfort and support, you have far better adjustments, the fact that they are electric is a bonus and heated a double bonus.... there are loads of subtle differences too like interior lighting and and various other things... when comparing it to a pre facelift you really are talking worlds apart... you simply wont understand until you live with one how much a better car it is for everything 'non track' - i bought it cos i thought they were fast, had wide arches and had nice seats, since owning it i could list a multitude of rerasons that i wouldnt go back to an A3.... simple as that and im sure most if not all S3 owners would agree....until you drive one for a few weeks Nick your really not going to 'get' what im talking about

 

[S3 HODGE]

Nick it feels a totally different car, i lived with mine (as i keep sayin) for 6 years and moving into the S3 was brilliant....the gears are less clunky with shorter throws... obviously the quattro... i have a slipped disc and thought the A3 seats were great, although IMO the S3's are far better for comfort and support, you have far better adjustments, the fact that they are electric is a bonus and heated a double bonus.... there are loads of subtle differences too like interior lighting and and various other things... when comparing it to a pre facelift you really are talking worlds apart... you simply wont understand until you live with one how much a better car it is for everything 'non track' - i bought it cos i thought they were fast, had wide arches and had nice seats, since owning it i could list a multitude of rerasons that i wouldnt go back to an A3.... simple as that and im sure most if not all S3 owners would agree....until you drive one for a few weeks Nick your really not going to 'get' what im talking about

Im with you 1animal1, I had my A3 only for a year and it was a good spec for an A3 but sold purely just to get an S3.
Ask yourself if there was an S3 with little extras and higher mileage along with a fully loaded A3 with lower mileage both sat infront of you for £6000 on a forcourt, What would you choose? i would'nt have to think to choose the S3. At the end of the day i think its a personal thing but if i walk around the S3 i see a very neat good looking car thats not boring to look at and looks smart up against some of the new car's today, A well presented interior with quality touches such as the Piano black inserts, Interior lighting and the Recaro seats and topped off with a 225BHP standard engine you would be silly not to pick the S3 over the A3....
Thats my Personal thought's on the S3 and im sure everyone see's it in a differant way so dont bite my head off.

 

[ianysm]

I agree. I'm afraid only A3 owners that really want an S3 are going to post up a thread like this saying their modified A3 is a better car with £xxx of mods...

In certian circumstances it may well be better and faster but as an all rounder if you factor in poor weather conditions and bumpy back roads the S3 is a nicer place to be without the harsh, jittery, noisey modified feel to it. The wider arches and track and pump up looks distinguish the S3 apart. Why own a modified A3 when you can own the real thing. I've never understood that mentality throughout my years of driving, but then i've always gone for the highest models!

No matter how good or fast my A3 was, everytime i saw an S3 i'd want that as the base model for future enhancements instead!

 

[S3 Rav]

each to their own. i think people may be geting prawn wrong abit though. i dont think either is putting each other down. of course an a3 with a few mods will do the job that the s3 does in some ways and in some ways not (if that makes sense) and i suppose its vice versa.

 

[Prawn]

I agree. I'm afraid only A3 owners that really want an S3 are going to post up a thread like this saying their modified A3 is a better car with £xxx of mods...

Jesus man, people keep missing my point!!!! the whole point of this arguement is nothing to do with me secretly wanting an S3, or wanting to pretend I've got a better car when I havnt.

I bought my A3 at the age of 19, for £2800, when even pre facelift S3's on 100k were fetching 9-10k. aged 19 it wasn't an option to buy and insure an S3, and my A3 was silly cheap at the time. so I got it.

my point is, that pound for pound, I've ended up with what I believe to be a better car than the money I've spent could have otherwise bought me. Considering I finished all my mods in Jan of last year when S3's were still fetching good money, I think my money was very well spent.

Personally I'm not fussed about silly things like interior lighting and heated seats, I think their a pointless gimik. My half leather seats have cloth centres, which don't get stupidly hot or cold, and hold me in far better than the S3 leather recaros

I really don't see that there are that many things different in the S3 to make it THAT much of a better car that you'd still choose it if it were slower and handled worse....

after all lads, it is just a tarted up A3.

each to their own. i think people may be geting prawn wrong abit though.

Thanks people are most definately getting the wrong end of the stick!

 

[1animal1]

Na Nick, you still miss the point, it isnt just a tarted up A3..... and yes it suited you at the time, i was unfortunate with my A3 as i paid £10500 for mine @ 3 yrs old, that said though you could gold plate every panel and id still choose the S3.... yes you have done well doing what you have.

The A3 is a damn good car, but it is far away from the FULL package which the S3 is closer to, you can have leccy seats and all the rest but you simply still have an A3....

as for the accesories being pointless gimics...why not strip out yours and live with that as your regular driver, i think you'd need to take the leccy windows out as the motors are quite heavy, the rear seats and the heavy recaro's to start.... practise what you preach i think is the term

going back to what i originally said 'you will not get it until you have owned one' this is not bravado, this is fact based on mine and other peoples experiance after owning what you have now (albeit not as quick).....

 

[FumaS3]

ill start this by first saing i have never driven a A3.but i own and love my S3 comperd to fwd cars that over or understeer from to much or 2 little power the S£ puts it down and is very neutral this dont make it boring far from it this makes this car more fun meaning i can comit harder to corners nowing i dont have to try and counter the over /under steer that i get from driveing other fast fwd cars. down to cost i dont truely understand what your saying its like saying a well modded escort is better then a escort cossy its just not it might have more power ect but at the end of the day its not gona hold the money you have spent on it and it hasnt been built for perpose by the manufaturer.my S3 cost me £7500 if you buy a a3 for 2-3k then spend 4k on it all you have done is made your car lose alot of cash the car will be fast but will cost more to ensure and maintain as you will need to service it more oftern then normal as the parts that are still origanl arnt ment to take that sort of use if the A3 was ment to be as the super fast audi they wouldnt have made a S3

a maped S3 is 260 bhp with a good map a A3 im guessing near the 200 mark? then take a max of 33% lost through transmission for the s3 then you got the base bhp figers and just to say i hear alot of people saying the s34 isnt good at handling and dont stop well i havent had any issues and i have had many a skermish on(privet roads) with imprezers and neva found that they had an advantage on the corners.

just my 2 pence worth (and if u want to feel a car with no feeling theough the steering try a new ford focus its shocking)

 

[Dave_Bayern]

Na Nick, you still miss the point, it isnt just a tarted up A3.....

Erm, yes it is.

What makes it different from an A3 Quattro sport for example?

Apart from one number on the turbo.....

Ooh, and piano black inserts.

 

[1animal1]

Erm, yes it is.

What makes it different from an A3 Quattro sport for example?

Apart from one number on the turbo.....

Ooh, and piano black inserts.

Dave....take away the aesthetic's..... i have owned both cars and conclude that the S3 isnt JUST a tarted up A3.... you have owned one and maybe driven an S3 for a few minutes or maybe an hour...not having lived with it, my A3 had a damn good spec, full leather, heated seats... and the usual trim

However..... and i bet my left arm that many who have owned an A3 and moved across will agree, my initial thoughts on the S3 were a few extra bits just like your thinking now, my views changed very quickly having lived with the car

The S3 is a whole lot more car than you think..... you simply are not qualified to comment as YOU have NOT owned the S3

Feel free to comment as im sure you will, your comments will be received though with the contempt they deserve

simples

 

[james0808]

at the end of the day its not gona hold the money you have spent on it and it hasnt been built for perpose by the manufaturer.my S3 cost me £7500 if you buy a a3 for 2-3k then spend 4k on it all you have done is made your car lose alot of cash

Most people who mod their cars do it for driving pleasure and not as an investment.
Do you think your S3 hasnt lost you a lot of cash?

 

[S3 HODGE]

(and if u want to feel a car with no feeling theough the steering try a new ford focus its shocking)

 

[Ess_Three]

i hear alot of people saying the s34 isnt good at handling and dont stop well i havent had any issues and i have had many a skermish on(privet roads) with imprezers and neva found that they had an advantage on the corners.

Maybe you don't drive it hard enough to notice, and the people you've come accross in Imprezas are taking their gran to church?

The Imprezas, in general, have less understeer and a more predictable 4wd system so you can go in faster, get on the power earlier and harder and leave S3s behind.

I can assure you, as standard the S3's suspension is woeful compared to the best out there, and the brakes good enough. Once.
Then useless.

Better pads help...
But bigger brakes with more pots is the only solution.

 

[voorhees]

Maybe you don't drive it hard enough to notice, and the people you've come accross in Imprezas are taking their gran to church?

LMAO

 

[Prawn]

Sounds about right to be fair.

I've avoided saying it for fear of insulting people, but anyone who thinks the S3 handles 'well' in standard form doesn't drive it properly. Whilst it's safe, and gets the power down fairly well, it still handles terribly.

And to suggest it'll keep up with an imprezza, is massively funny.

 

[vetch]

I'm no Audi or S3 fanboy, far from it, but I wouldn't use the word "terrible" to describe the standard S3's handling. Its fit for purpose I would say. If you want more, you have to go aftermarket and modify, the same with most cars. And the S3 and Impreza are two different cars, not really a like for like comparison.

 

[FumaS3]

think what you like round the twisty roads were i live i have had many a fun battle with imprezers ok not many new ones but still a good car.and i didnt say the S3 can handle like the best just in my expiriance going hell for leather down my country roads it sticks and if it does slide its controlable im not saying the S3 is some super sports car no what im saying is its a good car and can be quick with the 260 bhp remap and in regaurds to braking i havent had any real issues. bottom line is

audi made a S3 as the top of range A3 for a reason and to say a modded a3 can be as fast is true but it isnt gona be as complete car.

 

[FumaS3]

Most people who mod their cars do it for driving pleasure and not as an investment.
Do you think your S3 hasnt lost you a lot of cash?

just pointing out that in the debate about cost which at 1 point was center and depreciation/insurance/running cost of a modded a3 that was able to keep up with a s3 would mean you lose more cash ofcorse i have lost cash on my S3 but not as much for the rasons above i may be wronge but thats what i have seen on other cars and a quick look and autotrader shows i have lost £500 over the year on a car that is almost same as mine and im not paying over the odds on insurance

 

[1animal1]

Sounds about right to be fair.

I've avoided saying it for fear of insulting people, but anyone who thinks the S3 handles 'well' in standard form doesn't drive it properly. Whilst it's safe, and gets the power down fairly well, it still handles terribly.

And to suggest it'll keep up with an imprezza, is massively funny.

Nick.... if anyone drives a car in a city (like i do most of the time) hard enough to make it lose traction - case in point the S3 - then you are a reckless irresponsible maniac, if you do the same on blind lanes which is pretty much what im surrounded by, then you are a maniac..... like i said before, an M3 on a track is no doubt a wonderful thing to have, an M3 in the real world with real british climate = trouble..... the impreza's are good quick cars, after all thats what they are designed specifically to be... i wouldnt say the S3 handles better than them at all (neither would i expect it to)but what i would say is that 70%-90% of drivers on the road simply cannot drive near the limits of a cars handling without losing control - this is real world

As for some not being able to drive their cars properly, i have had my car on the limit (steering snapping back, back end kicking out in a high bend etc etc)and cant honestly say that i would find the need to push it beyond that, at least on the UK roads - yes there are exceptions when you see some of the roads in the lake district fo example, but for the time im on those roads it truly is not worth modifying my car and i bet a lot would share that view

 

[ianysm]

M3 on a track is no doubt a wonderful thing to have, an M3 in the real world with real british climate = trouble

Nah, that equals big fun...Just at higher speeds, albeit with some traction issues! Which brings me onto my next point. The S3 is a more accessible performance car than the likes of M3's, 911 C2's etc, yet with enough traction to actually stay ahead of them when the roads are in its favour (remapped car, wet bumpy roads!)

Also, i don't think an S3 is a tarted up A3, just like an M3 most definately isn't a tarted up 3 series!

 

[Dave_Bayern]

Correct, an M3 isnt a tarted up 3 series. The engine couldnt be more different, it has a totally different layout, individual throttle bodies, .4L more and over 100Bhp more.

The suspension shares NO common components with the 3 series, the alignment is totally different, it has staggered wheels, much bigger brakes, a different steering rack, different exhaust, no traction control and a LSD.

I could spend all day listing the differences between a 911 C2/C4 and a GT3, and another day on GT3 vs GT3 RS.

So your A3 quattro sport vs S3.

Same engine, different turbo. So no extra displacement, but 35Bhp more. Suspension components are the same. Brakes - not sure, Golf anniversary had 312mm, wouldnt surprise me is the A3QS did also.
Steering & geometry - same. Exhaust - same.
So in essence, the vast majority of A3 - S3 changes on quattro cars was aesthetics only.

Makes it a tarted up A3 in my book, in comparison to other German manufacturers 'sports' models.

And these people who keep going on about high performance two wheel drive cars being troublesome in Britain are talking nonsense.

I'm running on road legal track tyres, on a stripped out, 4 million BHP RWD BMW, and I've only ever had a traction problem in the snow, or standing water.
And anyone on track tyres will see that same issue, 4WD or not.

It just looks like some people REALLY need to learn how to drive. And let me set the record straight, I'm not a brilliant driver by any stretch of the imagination but this 4WD is more usable, more of the time is nonsense.
Learn to drive.

 

[Ess_Three]

It just looks like some people REALLY need to learn how to drive. And let me set the record straight, I'm not a brilliant driver by any stretch of the imagination but this 4WD is more usable, more of the time is nonsense.
Learn to drive.

Sorry Dave...but that's horseshit!
4WD is much easier to get more out of...so for a road car, you can use more of the power, more of the time.
With crappy pot holed roads, poor drainage, grip and poor weather...the 4WD just means it's one less thing to worry about.

That's common to everyone. It's simple physics. Nothing to do with driving skill...the driver can only make best use of the traction he has...on a road car, on rioad tyres, on ****** roads, you have twice the traction in a 4WD car (differences in 4WD system accepted)...

 

[Ess_Three]

Correct, an M3 isnt a tarted up 3 series. The engine couldnt be more different, it has a totally different layout, individual throttle bodies, .4L more and over 100Bhp more.

The suspension shares NO common components with the 3 series, the alignment is totally different, it has staggered wheels, much bigger brakes, a different steering rack, different exhaust, no traction control and a LSD.

And?
It's still a modified 3 Series.
It's not a ground up Sportscar...it is still hindered by the same platform design as a 316...so not that different at all.

It's a 3 Series with a stonking engine and decent suspension...but still a 3 Series...so let's not pretend it's some mythical M Division one-off.

Drawing a comparison:
R32 to A3 1.6.
Completely different drivetrain, handling, suspension, engine etc...same platform. Still a 1.6 Hatchback base platform.

So the M3 IS a tarted up 3 Series, just one that's been done properly by people that know what they are doing.

I could spend all day listing the differences between a 911 C2/C4 and a GT3, and another day on GT3 vs GT3 RS.

So could I...
But there you are speaking about different versions of a ground-up Sportscar. Not an underpowered Hatch/Saloon given a big engine and made to work...but one engineered to work.

Very different in my book.

So your A3 quattro sport vs S3.

Same engine, different turbo. So no extra displacement, but 35Bhp more. Suspension components are the same. Brakes - not sure, Golf anniversary had 312mm, wouldnt surprise me is the A3QS did also.
Steering & geometry - same. Exhaust - same.
So in essence, the vast majority of A3 - S3 changes on quattro cars was aesthetics only.

Makes it a tarted up A3 in my book, in comparison to other German manufacturers 'sports' models.

Whilst I agree...the M3 to 3 Series analargy isn't too far removed.
The M3 may go further...but it's still 3 Series underneath, with all the compromises that come with it.

 

[1animal1]

you dont half set yourself up for some s**t Dave..... I know i do but most of the time im aware of it.....