very nice same chip as mine but what is a ECS N75 valve and what have you done to mod the airbox.
did the exhaust and cat change do much for you
did the exhaust and cat change do much for you
My S3 (274.5 BHP / 332 lb-ft)
- Thread starter will_S3
- Start date
I have the same question as Will - what is that N75 valve?
Also, are you able to split out the incremental performance effects of the various mods i.e. what do you think the APR chip would give without the FMIC, exhaust system, hoses, DV, etc? Just curious if you had an idea of this?
Also, are you able to split out the incremental performance effects of the various mods i.e. what do you think the APR chip would give without the FMIC, exhaust system, hoses, DV, etc? Just curious if you had an idea of this?
Sorry my fault! It was a reply to a post in the graph's section and I moved it over here, as we are trying to keep that forum discussion free......
Blame me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Blame me /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
Ess_Three
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Right, I'll try to explain further:
ECS is a US company that found out that a N75 valve off a non 1.8T engine would 'fool' the system into running more power by holding more boost.
It gave me 4.5BHP / 28 lb-ft of torque.
However...I have not had chance to fully test the EGTs, mixture etc to prove it's safe on a high output S3.
Also, it's fine when the weather is warm and the air density high...run the N75 in cold weather and you WILL hit limp mode...and without a VAG-Com to clear it, your up **** creek without a paddle.
Note also, that as boost increases, so does the inlet temperature as the crappy standard ICs cannot keep high boostcharge cool...I was getting up to 70 degrees inlet charge temperature on the standard ICs BRFORE fitting the N75...so there is no way I'd even think about running a different N75 on standard ICs with the boost levels I'm currentl running. You have been warned. Melted internals are not funny.
All in all...probably NOT a great mod for everyday use. In my opinion anyway.
So, back to the mods:
I'm stuch offshore at work at the mo, so I don't have all the graphs in front of me...but from memory the stages were as follows:
(All mods were dyno'd independantly by the same operator to the same standards...all at Star Performance, Glenrothes...by Jim)
Standard = 200BHP / 199 lb-ft
Added Milltek exhaust = 200 BHP / 203 lb-ft
Added Milltek Cats = 203 BHP / 207 lb-ft
APR low boost chip = 248 BHP / 260 lb-ft
- inlrt charge getting too high.
Added Forge FMIC = 254 BHP / 280 lb-ft
APR 1.4 bar high boost chip = 264 BHP / 288 lb-ft
APR 1.4 bar high boost optimax chip = 269 BHP / 300 lb-ft
Added modded airbox / K&N panel filter = APR 1.4 bar high boost optimax chip = 270 BHP / 305 lb-ft
Added ECS N75 = 275 BHP / 332 lb-ft
The figures may be off by as much as 5 either way, on both scales...but you get the idea.
These are not one off figures either...fully repeatable...I've even done testing to show the effects of heat soak (horrendous losses!!)
There are a few more stages to be added to in the next few months too...watch this space!!
As for the airbox...
I'm running a K&N panel filter and have smoothed out the box intrnals, and added a 4" cold air feed into the airbox...but the standard, sealed airbox remains.
I'm lucky that the 4" feed goes down the side of the airbox between the box and the inner wing, and down into the area normally reserved for the passenger side IC. This is an area of relatively high pressure (tested with a manometer!) and an area where there is plenty of cold, dense air.
I can post pics if people are interested.
Hope some of you find this interesting....
ECS is a US company that found out that a N75 valve off a non 1.8T engine would 'fool' the system into running more power by holding more boost.
It gave me 4.5BHP / 28 lb-ft of torque.
However...I have not had chance to fully test the EGTs, mixture etc to prove it's safe on a high output S3.
Also, it's fine when the weather is warm and the air density high...run the N75 in cold weather and you WILL hit limp mode...and without a VAG-Com to clear it, your up **** creek without a paddle.
Note also, that as boost increases, so does the inlet temperature as the crappy standard ICs cannot keep high boostcharge cool...I was getting up to 70 degrees inlet charge temperature on the standard ICs BRFORE fitting the N75...so there is no way I'd even think about running a different N75 on standard ICs with the boost levels I'm currentl running. You have been warned. Melted internals are not funny.
All in all...probably NOT a great mod for everyday use. In my opinion anyway.
So, back to the mods:
I'm stuch offshore at work at the mo, so I don't have all the graphs in front of me...but from memory the stages were as follows:
(All mods were dyno'd independantly by the same operator to the same standards...all at Star Performance, Glenrothes...by Jim)
Standard = 200BHP / 199 lb-ft
Added Milltek exhaust = 200 BHP / 203 lb-ft
Added Milltek Cats = 203 BHP / 207 lb-ft
APR low boost chip = 248 BHP / 260 lb-ft
- inlrt charge getting too high.
Added Forge FMIC = 254 BHP / 280 lb-ft
APR 1.4 bar high boost chip = 264 BHP / 288 lb-ft
APR 1.4 bar high boost optimax chip = 269 BHP / 300 lb-ft
Added modded airbox / K&N panel filter = APR 1.4 bar high boost optimax chip = 270 BHP / 305 lb-ft
Added ECS N75 = 275 BHP / 332 lb-ft
The figures may be off by as much as 5 either way, on both scales...but you get the idea.
These are not one off figures either...fully repeatable...I've even done testing to show the effects of heat soak (horrendous losses!!)
There are a few more stages to be added to in the next few months too...watch this space!!
As for the airbox...
I'm running a K&N panel filter and have smoothed out the box intrnals, and added a 4" cold air feed into the airbox...but the standard, sealed airbox remains.
I'm lucky that the 4" feed goes down the side of the airbox between the box and the inner wing, and down into the area normally reserved for the passenger side IC. This is an area of relatively high pressure (tested with a manometer!) and an area where there is plenty of cold, dense air.
I can post pics if people are interested.
Hope some of you find this interesting....
Ess_Three
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[ QUOTE ]
RichA3Turbo said:
An informative post as usual Glen! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheers Rich!
I guess there are a few more observations I could add;
Milltek Exhaust & Sports Cats:
I never saw anything close to the gains that Milltek / AmD claimed for the Milltek exhaust & cats...but I am not in any way unhappy with them.
Although I didn't see the power gains I was hoping for on a standard car...I did get a much more freely revving engine, a better exhaust note and better throttle response.
When the ECU was chipped...I experienced gains that cannot really be explained...you should not get that sort of power and torque from an APR chip...so don't go expecting to get similar!
For some reason my car makes far more boost on a standard N75, than it ever should...this, we can only put down to the exhaust & cats combination.
I have discussed these observations with AmD & Milltek and my results are not the norm..but as I said, I am in no way unhappy with the results I got or the products.
Are they value for money bearing in mind the gains I saw on a standard engine...possibly not.
Are they worth it on an engine in a higher state of tune...definately.
The throttle response, added ability to rev, and the noise make it well worth it to me!
I guess it comes down to 'don't believe the hype'...
If you decide to go for the Milltek Exhaust & Sports Cats combination, do so not expecting the earth...the numbers may not be as impressive as you would hope...but the on-road performance certainly is.
ECS N75:
I think I've said it all...it does what it says on the tin. Increases boost.
It also gives you limp mode when it feels like it and risks melting your engine if you start to run lean.
Worth the risk? I don't think so...not in my circumstances.
Will it work on another manufacturers re-map? Who knows?
Will it work on a standard S3 / A3? I would say so...and work pretty well.
K&N Filter:
Gave me nothing...lost me nothing.
Panel filters do not appear to kill MAFs like induction kits do...although don't go expecting any gains...they don't exist.
Worth doing? Probably...you can hear the turbo spool up a bit louder, and the DV whoosh is more pronounced.
Modified Airbox:
Gained nothing on the dyno, lost nothing.
What it does do is allow the engine to rev a bit harder...although it doesn't actually produce more power.
I like it...I don't like induction kits...why spend all the money developing a nice cold, closed induction tract only for people to fit an induction kit that pulls all it's air from right beside a piping hot engine?
The standard airbox certainly doesn't hold my engine back...so why change it?
Although...I must admit that perhaps Rich's set up of the cone filter inside the standard airbox would prove to be a winner? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
RichA3Turbo said:
An informative post as usual Glen! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheers Rich!
I guess there are a few more observations I could add;
Milltek Exhaust & Sports Cats:
I never saw anything close to the gains that Milltek / AmD claimed for the Milltek exhaust & cats...but I am not in any way unhappy with them.
Although I didn't see the power gains I was hoping for on a standard car...I did get a much more freely revving engine, a better exhaust note and better throttle response.
When the ECU was chipped...I experienced gains that cannot really be explained...you should not get that sort of power and torque from an APR chip...so don't go expecting to get similar!
For some reason my car makes far more boost on a standard N75, than it ever should...this, we can only put down to the exhaust & cats combination.
I have discussed these observations with AmD & Milltek and my results are not the norm..but as I said, I am in no way unhappy with the results I got or the products.
Are they value for money bearing in mind the gains I saw on a standard engine...possibly not.
Are they worth it on an engine in a higher state of tune...definately.
The throttle response, added ability to rev, and the noise make it well worth it to me!
I guess it comes down to 'don't believe the hype'...
If you decide to go for the Milltek Exhaust & Sports Cats combination, do so not expecting the earth...the numbers may not be as impressive as you would hope...but the on-road performance certainly is.
ECS N75:
I think I've said it all...it does what it says on the tin. Increases boost.
It also gives you limp mode when it feels like it and risks melting your engine if you start to run lean.
Worth the risk? I don't think so...not in my circumstances.
Will it work on another manufacturers re-map? Who knows?
Will it work on a standard S3 / A3? I would say so...and work pretty well.
K&N Filter:
Gave me nothing...lost me nothing.
Panel filters do not appear to kill MAFs like induction kits do...although don't go expecting any gains...they don't exist.
Worth doing? Probably...you can hear the turbo spool up a bit louder, and the DV whoosh is more pronounced.
Modified Airbox:
Gained nothing on the dyno, lost nothing.
What it does do is allow the engine to rev a bit harder...although it doesn't actually produce more power.
I like it...I don't like induction kits...why spend all the money developing a nice cold, closed induction tract only for people to fit an induction kit that pulls all it's air from right beside a piping hot engine?
The standard airbox certainly doesn't hold my engine back...so why change it?
Although...I must admit that perhaps Rich's set up of the cone filter inside the standard airbox would prove to be a winner? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Ess_Three said:
Standard = 200BHP / 199 lb-ft
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that due to heat soak or something? Seems a bit strange as Als got 233 at the last RR meet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Ess_Three said:
Standard = 200BHP / 199 lb-ft
[/ QUOTE ]
Is that due to heat soak or something? Seems a bit strange as Als got 233 at the last RR meet. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif
Glens car may have been a 210 engine, and just slightly down on power. I'm sure he'll explain.
Great info Glen, by the way.
AL
Great info Glen, by the way.
AL
Ess_Three
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[ QUOTE ]
AL B said:
Glens car may have been a 210 engine, and just slightly down on power. I'm sure he'll explain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here goes:
My engine is indeed an AMK 210 BHP unit.
The car only had about 1100 miles on it when first dyno'd...and it was hot after the 100 mlie run to Glenrothes.
Basically, I have a couple of standard runs...ranging from 200 BHP ish (round about...give or take a few as my memory fails me!) up to about 211 BHP. The torque range was less..199-207 as I remember.
Like I said...every dyno run gives different values based upon so many factors...but mine was slightly under standard when tested hot...this is not unexpected for a new, tight, hot unit.
I will also tend to give average figures, rather than over inflated one-offs. That way I'm not kidding anyone...least of all myself.
Not that I'm suggesting anything..but I believe Star Performances rollers are known to be particularly accurate and will not flatter with the power outputs...I'm certainly not gouing to get into the whole "Alans car made XX on Interpro's rollers whilst mine only made YY on Stars rollers" debate.
Different rolling roads.
Different days.
Different operators.
Different rules / agendas.
I'm happy with what my car is making...and even more happy with how it performs out on the road, as that is the measure of a good conversion. Figures mean nothing on thier own.
Out of interest, my car only makes about 226 BHP with a standard 225 TT/S3 map - including all the other additions (FMIC, Cats, Exhaust etc)
Perhaps I just have a low power engine? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Great info Glen, by the way.
AL
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheers AL...I try.
AL B said:
Glens car may have been a 210 engine, and just slightly down on power. I'm sure he'll explain.
[/ QUOTE ]
Here goes:
My engine is indeed an AMK 210 BHP unit.
The car only had about 1100 miles on it when first dyno'd...and it was hot after the 100 mlie run to Glenrothes.
Basically, I have a couple of standard runs...ranging from 200 BHP ish (round about...give or take a few as my memory fails me!) up to about 211 BHP. The torque range was less..199-207 as I remember.
Like I said...every dyno run gives different values based upon so many factors...but mine was slightly under standard when tested hot...this is not unexpected for a new, tight, hot unit.
I will also tend to give average figures, rather than over inflated one-offs. That way I'm not kidding anyone...least of all myself.
Not that I'm suggesting anything..but I believe Star Performances rollers are known to be particularly accurate and will not flatter with the power outputs...I'm certainly not gouing to get into the whole "Alans car made XX on Interpro's rollers whilst mine only made YY on Stars rollers" debate.
Different rolling roads.
Different days.
Different operators.
Different rules / agendas.
I'm happy with what my car is making...and even more happy with how it performs out on the road, as that is the measure of a good conversion. Figures mean nothing on thier own.
Out of interest, my car only makes about 226 BHP with a standard 225 TT/S3 map - including all the other additions (FMIC, Cats, Exhaust etc)
Perhaps I just have a low power engine? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
[ QUOTE ]
Great info Glen, by the way.
AL
[/ QUOTE ]
Cheers AL...I try.
DavidR
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[ QUOTE ]
Ess_Three said:
...and remarkably, I do maintain a social life too!
[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif
hehehe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Ess_Three said:
...and remarkably, I do maintain a social life too!
[/ QUOTE ]
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/vomit.gif
hehehe /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
So Glen, is there a Mrs Ess_Three ?? NO im not proposing b4 one of u sickos pipes up. Just wondering what da mrs makes of ur insanity i mean mod fetish ?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif
Ess_Three
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[ QUOTE ]
Riz S3 said:
helicopter to work... jeeez! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes...but it's not as exotic as it first appears!
It's not as if it's my helicopter... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
18 fully grown men wearing survival suits, lifejackets and re-breathers, crammed into a helicopter like sardines in a tin...in the sweltering heat...travelling 1 hour offshore to live & work on a lump of metal 100 miles from land...with no alcohol!
At least I spend not one penny for 2 weeks...they live it up for my 3 weeks home! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Riz S3 said:
helicopter to work... jeeez! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes...but it's not as exotic as it first appears!
It's not as if it's my helicopter... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif
18 fully grown men wearing survival suits, lifejackets and re-breathers, crammed into a helicopter like sardines in a tin...in the sweltering heat...travelling 1 hour offshore to live & work on a lump of metal 100 miles from land...with no alcohol!
At least I spend not one penny for 2 weeks...they live it up for my 3 weeks home! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
hehe, oooops there was me thinking your owned a helicopter like chris moore! nevermind huh, cant have it all. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/lol.gif
Ess_Three
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[ QUOTE ]
MO-S3 said:
So Glen, is there a Mrs Ess_Three ?? NO im not proposing b4 one of u sickos pipes up. Just wondering what da mrs makes of ur insanity i mean mod fetish ?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Not as such...
There was a long term g/f...who had a modified Lupo GTI...but that was then. So, one less car to have to work on! Woo-hoo!
Now, there's still a g/f...although I have so far avoided the dreaded wedding band!
Fortunately, the current g/f approves of the S3 (as she says she will happily take it off my hands once I'm bored of it) so any mods I do are most welcome in her eyes.
As for my illness...I'm not sure she fully understands my need to take a perfectly good, new car apart in an attempt to improve it...but she lets it go.
That's the best way...
Just nod in acknowledgememt...and say' That's just Glen...that's just what he does!"...accompanied by a shaking of head and sucking of teeth!
Happy days... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
MO-S3 said:
So Glen, is there a Mrs Ess_Three ?? NO im not proposing b4 one of u sickos pipes up. Just wondering what da mrs makes of ur insanity i mean mod fetish ?? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/goofy.gif
[/ QUOTE ]
Not as such...
There was a long term g/f...who had a modified Lupo GTI...but that was then. So, one less car to have to work on! Woo-hoo!
Now, there's still a g/f...although I have so far avoided the dreaded wedding band!
Fortunately, the current g/f approves of the S3 (as she says she will happily take it off my hands once I'm bored of it) so any mods I do are most welcome in her eyes.
As for my illness...I'm not sure she fully understands my need to take a perfectly good, new car apart in an attempt to improve it...but she lets it go.
That's the best way...
Just nod in acknowledgememt...and say' That's just Glen...that's just what he does!"...accompanied by a shaking of head and sucking of teeth!
Happy days... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif
Ess_Three
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[ QUOTE ]
will_S3 said:
thanks for that i would like to see some pics if you can
[/ QUOTE ]
Here you go:
I'm sure you can make sense of these...basically a 4" duct from the bumper cut out on the passenger side, up part the battery tray (required cutting to make room), up past the lights (requires plugs & connections moving to make room), round the side of the installed battery and into the airbox.
Nice and neat.
will_S3 said:
thanks for that i would like to see some pics if you can
[/ QUOTE ]
Here you go:
I'm sure you can make sense of these...basically a 4" duct from the bumper cut out on the passenger side, up part the battery tray (required cutting to make room), up past the lights (requires plugs & connections moving to make room), round the side of the installed battery and into the airbox.
Nice and neat.
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I done a similar thing with the intake pipe for my induction kit. Although with the standard intercooler there it was a right pig trying to get the pipe into place. I only managed to get a 3" pipe in there. Although I took it all the way under the car attaching it to the underneath of the front bumper lengthways for about 2 foot. I then cut a 2 inch slot out of this piece about 18" long. I dont know whether this is a high pressure / low pressure area, but I suppose it beats pulling in hot engine bay air.
This pattern goes on...
£12000 on a parts for a Vauxhall Nova years ago...
£7000 on parts for a honda Integra Type-R...
£18000 on parts for a Honda Fireblade...
(Over the years you understand...not all at once!)
spend also a lot on a honda fireblade, 2 times exactly, but it was for ALL the parts ;-))
LOL
£12000 on a parts for a Vauxhall Nova years ago...
£7000 on parts for a honda Integra Type-R...
£18000 on parts for a Honda Fireblade...
(Over the years you understand...not all at once!)
spend also a lot on a honda fireblade, 2 times exactly, but it was for ALL the parts ;-))
LOL
Dennis Moeller
Registered User
So this would be safe an AMK standard engine. No limp mode or nothing? Work pretty well...please explain some more.
In advance, thanks!!
Effect
Registered User
Dennis this thread is 6 years old.
Could you not have had a look at some of the newer threads LOOOOOADS of people have tried this mod with lots of different N75 valves. I have in the past searched this topic and came to the conclusion it just in't worth doing as it puts the car into limp mode which then needs VAG-COM to reset it, which if you have it is a PITA and if you dont have it is a REAL PITA.
James.
Could you not have had a look at some of the newer threads LOOOOOADS of people have tried this mod with lots of different N75 valves. I have in the past searched this topic and came to the conclusion it just in't worth doing as it puts the car into limp mode which then needs VAG-COM to reset it, which if you have it is a PITA and if you dont have it is a REAL PITA.
James.
Dennis Moeller
Registered User
Thanks James...I did see that the thead was old hehe...Also did some searches but suddenly there was a remark from EssThree stating it would give a little punch to a standard engine...And I thought, hey why not dig into this some more...Also did some searches on other forums but it is as you say more or less worthless if having a non remapped engine. Once I will remap mine I will try that valve (if hitting limp mode I'll switch it back)
Cheers
