more points for pro drivers??

ALPINE

ALPINE

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ok the law is the law but do you thin its a bit dated when it comes to penalty points??

its so easy to get points now days, mobile traps, gatsos, spec`s, etc etc..

but do you think people who drive for a living should be aloud more leaniency? (excuse the spelling)

i mean im on the road every day of the week and i have dead lines like every 1 else. need to be places at certain times etc. Ok im not saying lets all hack about at 90000 mph, but people who drive for a living are more prone to racking up the points. i have been very unlucky the past month or so. On the A303, i was clocked doing 73 mph. un-known to me your only aloud to do 60 in a van on an A road. so theres 3 points. popping in a postcode a couple of days ago i found my self doing 82 - 83 mph on the M4, looked up and theres a mobile, thats another 3 points. its so easy to get. If i get any more points i loose my job, loose my house, loose my car, loose my fam. yes you can all say slow down but can any of you honestly say you have never broken the speed limit??? Im not talking erratic driving just simple few mph over. i heard today on the news there trying to change the law so if you are 20mph over the limit you basicly are screwd. (which is fair enough) but do you not think it should be some what tamed down to the actual speed you were over by??

reason i post this is because im lookin on loosing my licence due to "silly mistakes" i have made. its fully my fault i know but i feel a bit gutted. at the end of the day im out there like every 1 else trying to support my fam, and due to some stupid dated laws mine and my wife and 2 kids life could now be seriously F*ked.

What are your views on this?
 
I'm sorry about your problems but ,unless I'm mistaken, the logic behind speed limits is that they are supposed to reduce injuries/fatalities by ensuring lower speeds? I think it would matter little if the driver of an offending vehicle was a 'professional' or an amateur - you'd still be dead/injured - speed limits apply to everyone:rulez:
 
Ignorance isn't an excuse regarding the van speeding offense.

If you need your license for your work then you have to slow down. Plain and simple.

Everyday I see truckers completely ignoring their limits. They're supposed to do 40 on A roads but how many do. You just have to look at the Italian road crash link in the You tube forum to see the destruction one of these can cause.

Fair enough a van is smaller but they're generally more heavily loaded than cars so will cause more damage if they crash.
 
the van laws for slower speeds was introduced in the 60s as vans could not stop as quick as cars due to there primative break set up. This is ******** now days as my van could prob stop quicker than an old hot hatch, Golf gti, nova etc.

laws need to be revised. as for my slowing down, i do need to do it but as said b4, its not like im sitting at 90mph everywhere. between 75-80 at any given time as par road conditions. or, going with the flow of traffic.
 
Age old argument I'm afraid. Until the powers that be realise there is very little link between speeding and accidents (7% according to TRRL) then they will continue on this misguided crusade. They have to really as there is very little they can do to combat the major causes of accidents without introducing 1,000's of traffic enforcement officers sitting on the roads and pulling the offenders. Technology cannot penalise stupidity on the roads whereas speeding is easy. I don't have an issue with speed camera's in the right locations (although you rarely see them outside schools or hospitals etc) but my biggest gripe is with the attitude it instills in everyone behind the wheel. The heavy handed propaganda we are all exposed to is all about "speed kills". Well of course it does, but you note the tagline isn't "speeders kill" because 93 times out of 100 speeding hasn't been the reason for a fatality. So as long as I stick to the speed limits I can be drunk, talking on my phone or high as a kite and according to the propaganda I'm pretty damn safe because I'm not speeding.
If you take out the major speeding offenders who are not affected by speed cameras such as bikers (no front numberplate), unlicensed/uninsured/unregistered drivers and joyriders, then you are left with drivers not concentrating on what they are doing. They are literally asleep at the wheel. These are the biggest killers on the roads (HGV's included) but there is no easy way to combat them so we are stuck with the ridiculously naive notion that if we erradicate speeders we erradicate death on the roads. I think we can all agree that this is clearly ********.
Why on earth are we targetting people for potentially causing an accident with their speed, when we don't even point/fine the people who actually have accidents?
I can quite happily go about causing mayhem on the roads within the speed limit, rear ending people for no reason at all and do I get points and a fine? Just link up to the insurance database and anyone losing their no claims bonus also gets to enjoy 6 points and a fine. You'd soon get the idiots who can't drive off the roads before they do any serious damage. But that would be just too easy
Seriously if you want to keep your licence you need to get yourself a laser jammer and a road angel (or similar). The laser jammer is the most important and has saved my licence and the missus since we fitted them to both our cars.
As for pro drivers, we really need 2 licences. If you drive as part of your job then you get a work licence as well as your personal licence. Again simple, but the authorities would simply say as a pro driver you should be doubly careful about speeding, like we do it deliberately. We all jump behind the wheel and think "right I'm going to do some serious speeding today", I don't think so.
 
they do use leniancy when you say if your banned (for speeding) it'll cost you your job they tend to hit you with a fine
 
No they don't. The only mitigating circumstances that have any effect is the hardship on any dependents around you i.e. you have kids and loss of job would have a detrimental effect on them.
Just loss of job with no dependents has no sway with the magistrates, as you knew that before you did the crime and loss of job means the hardship is on you, which is exactly where it's supposed to be for breaking the law.
 
AndyMac said:
No they don't. The only mitigating circumstances that have any effect is the hardship on any dependents around you i.e. you have kids and loss of job would have a detrimental effect on them.
Just loss of job with no dependents has no sway with the magistrates, as you knew that before you did the crime and loss of job means the hardship is on you, which is exactly where it's supposed to be for breaking the law.
Click to expand...

Someone from my work got let off with 6 points and a fine of £700 plus court costs and victim support for doing 101mph over 5 miles. So you can get off based on your work circumstances. Depending if you already have points though is another matter, he had none.

I dont need my car for work so I cant use that for an excuse and I am expecting to be banned when my court date arrives. I was doing silly speeds and accept responsibility. Shame I have got a brand new edition 30 a few months back, it will just have to sit on the drive depending how long i get banned for. :(
 
You can get off a single offence as illustrated, but we're talking totting up here, which is quite different as mgistrates see it as persistant offending.
It does heavily depend on the magistrates on the day, bit of a lottery as there's no rules or guidelines. I had a ley magistrate the first time I was facing a totting up ban and got off without being banned but had to keep 12 points. It was 18 months before 6 points came off so no surprise I got done again after a year and they threw the book at me with a 12 month ban.
Hope you get a good bunch on the day and they are lenient with 56 days (which strangely enough wipes all previous points off your licence) Who'd have thought there would be an upside to being banned?
 
i been reading around loads of different sites and im getting this impression.

6 points in ya 1st 2 years your licence is revoked. resulting in having to re-sit all tests again after applying for a provi licence. points stay on new licence for 3 years.

12 points.. "totting" if you manage to get 12 points you get a 6 month ban. After whick your licence is returned, with no points on it.

Is this the case?
 
No, as said already there are no hard & fast rules governing what ban you get (if at all) or for how long. It can be 1 week or 1 year or anything in between. The only rule is that if you get a ban of 56 days or more the points come off when they return your licence.
No idea on the new driver rules, they weren't treated any differently back in the 80's (when I passed my test), although back then getting caught speeding was relatively unusual. Oh how things have changed/deteriorated
 
ALPINE said:
6 points in ya 1st 2 years your licence is revoked. resulting in having to re-sit all tests again after applying for a provi licence. points stay on new licence for 3 years.
Click to expand...

T'is True.
 
I'm sorry to read of the situation that you have found yourself in.

The law MUST be written for the lowest common denominator i.e. the Moris Minors still out on the road. If the limits were raised to factor in improved technology, the users of those older cars would automatically, without a second thought, think "Wow now I can go xx mph. Sweet!" Not good.

Driving to the conditions is all well and good, but if you cannot see a stationary van on top of a bridge then that is only down to you. You can be doing 100+ on a motorway, with no one else on it at all. So you have a lane either side to give you LOTS of room for error, safe gentle curves, but it IS STILL ILLEGAL. :rulez:

The issue with the van speed limit, you should know if you've read the highway code lately. It has changed twice in the last 2-3 years and your not knowing a van's speed limit shows that you have not read it probably since you passed your test.

Personally, I only exceed the [national] speed limit when the following conditions are met:-


  1. The conditions allow (traffic volume, road conditions, weather etc)
  2. It is safe to do so
  3. When my observation of the raod ahead [and behind] virtually eliminates the possibility of being caught by the fuzz

I don't mean to be a teacher of egg-sucking here, but if you're not observing far enough ahead to spot the mobile camera, you're not looking far enough to even be doing those speeds safely.

30, 40 and 50 limits are strictly adhered to. There is soimply no point risking it in those limits for reasons nothing to do with losing your license. How about pedestrians on the pavement, dogs not on leads, houses, driveways, hidden entrances, children playing in the most ridiculous of places? And that's without worrying about speed cameras!

There are countless hazards out there and your observation has to be tip top to keep you out of trouble. Of those of you who've had accidents, how many could have been avoided with better observation about what was going on up ahead?

I found flaws like these in my driving which prompted me to look at doing an advanced driving course (IAM) and after completing it, I have not looked back! :racer: I am now an observer with the group and help to pass on the skills I learned to others who would like to learn.

There are times when I would have been before the court had it not been for good observation skills and every time I hang back from a dodgy situation it reminds me how well my money was spent.

If you're stuck for what to buy someone this Christmas and they drive a car, I cannot recommend the IAM highly enough. You will learn to enjoy driving even more than you do now. If you don't believe me, come out with me for a demo and I'll show you the difference it makes! :icon_thumright:

Cheers,
Andy
 
thanks for your input andy... i must ad that the mobile van on the bridge was round a bend, there for as i come round the nice long sweeping bend he was there. i think im quite an observant driver, im on the road every day nearly all day so its not out of in-experience.

i just been seriously unlucky. and you right in saying i have not read the highway code since i passed my test. Who does??
 
Where in the country are you? Could take you out if you're anywhere close (Cambs).

In these perilous economic times, if you can spare £99, you'll save it many times over!
 
thanks dude, but i cant spare 99p atm, my car still aint working properly, baby due in 4 weeks, xmas there abouts too, moving house after xmas. Did i mention i mite be loosing my licence and job too!!! :)
 
i got let off a ban for totting up, and i dont have any dependents etc, but as im slef employed, my solicitor argued that if i lost my license i couldnt work so wouldnt be balt pay the fine etc and would loose my house and business..............so they more than doubled my fine but at least i could work to pay it.

how do you define a professional driver, i like you speed most of my day driving to clients etc, and consider my self to be a good driver, but you only have to look around you when driving and see how bad some of the other so called professional drivers are

i have to admit you possibly bit unlucky with the van speed limits and you not knowing as i didnt either and it effects me also in my l200 warrior as its classed as an lgv as well

but

dont you think you may have deserved the points if you were doing 82-83mph whilst popping in a postcode???? and were obviously distracted enough not to see the speed trap.....it may not have been a speed trap but could have been a stopped vehicle or whatever in the road and so you would have crashed etc
 
205man said:
dont you think you may have deserved the points if you were doing 82-83mph whilst popping in a postcode???? and were obviously distracted enough not to see the speed trap.....it may not have been a speed trap but could have been a stopped vehicle or whatever in the road and so you would have crashed etc
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yep ok, i see your point there.

And i refering to pro drivers as people who drive for a living. Lorry drivers, van drivers, etc. in otherwords, people whos offices are there vans. :)
 
By the time you are physically able to see some of the mobile traps it's too late I'm afraid. Takes 0.3 seconds for them to zap you. No advanced driving course can change the laws of physics, and I've done the course so I know.
 
This is true but they're more about changing driver mentality than anything else. I was zapped twice in 1 week for doing 35 in a 30 and went on the speed awareness course and found it very constructive as it's more about re-educating people.

People may say "so if you were zapped the first time why didn't you slow down" but it's not as easy as that, it'a about changing habit and driver observation/awareness. Actually I think that getting zapped twice did me a favour because I did need re-educating and it has slowed me right down. Plus I learned a lot about driving economically which, at the moment, is all good.
 
just skipped through this and although I feel for you getting banned I actually think professional drivers should stick to the speed limits more than anyone after all its their job. I do believe you have been very unlucky and I feel for you but I know a lot of taxi drivers who won`t go over the speed limit as its too risky especially doing the airport runs.
 
I think the point about pro drivers is totally valid. As said already speeding has nothing to do with premeditation. No one gets behind the wheel to do some really good speeding. It's about concentrating on driving rather than the speedo, reading the road ahead and the hazardous behaviour of other drivers. So the more miles you do the more points you will accumulate, it really is as simple as that. Speed traps are only in place outside rush hour, so if all you ever do is drive to and from work you are unlikely ever to be caught. If driving is part of your job whether its vans, hgv's or even being a sales rep you are on the road all day, probably trying to avoid rush hours if possible, so are far more likely to get done by speed traps. So ironically by the very nature of your job you are more likely to lose the one thing you need in order to do your job.
This is supposed to be all about safety folks, and it clearly isn't. I've been to court several times for speeding and never once have the magistrates asked about my accident history or the amount of mileage I do. they have no interest in safety, it's just a digital knee jerk reaction, "he broke the law, he must be unsafe".
"Yes but we all break the law"
"Tough, he got caught"
You can now be banned for 2 offences of 90mph on an empty motorway with an unblemished driving history while doing 25k miles a year, while some accident prone idiot with accidents all over the place is still on the road causing chaos purely because they never go over the speed limit.
As for the nonsense above about taxidrivers - it's in their interest to stick to the speed limit, they make more money that way (obviously).
 
Id invest in a foreign license, bit of homework on the internet should give you the details you need. There are a few companies that specialise in this but they do charge quite a lot for the privilege. I worked in Germany and sorted myself one, cost £15 plus £22 for a replacement UK driving license (you actually have to physically hand over your old license) and took a week. If you have any Polish work colleagues try asking them, you could fly over for a 4 day p*ss up come home with a second license.

Or maybe obey the speed limits. :p
 
AndyMac said:
I think the point about pro drivers is totally valid. As said already speeding has nothing to do with premeditation. No one gets behind the wheel to do some really good speeding. It's about concentrating on driving rather than the speedo, reading the road ahead and the hazardous behaviour of other drivers.
Click to expand...

Your statement has the possibility to the uninitiated and ignorant drivers on the roads (not that any here are) to make them think that "it's ok if I stray over the limit cos "I didn't mean to Officer!" "

No one does got out purely to do some good speeding, but the majority of the time one does break the speed limit knowingly. And if one does not know what speed is doing (even 20 seconds ago I was at 60 is satisfactory), one needs to go back to school.

Everyone makes the decision "Shall i do 50 in this 40 zone if I make up the missing 3-4 minutes further down the road?" One weighs up the gains against the possible risks.

AndyMac said:
So the more miles you do the more points you will accumulate, it really is as simple as that. Speed traps are only in place outside rush hour, so if all you ever do is drive to and from work you are unlikely ever to be caught. If driving is part of your job whether its vans, hgv's or even being a sales rep you are on the road all day, probably trying to avoid rush hours if possible, so are far more likely to get done by speed traps. So ironically by the very nature of your job you are more likely to lose the one thing you need in order to do your job.
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I do not believe for one second that "speed traps are turned off during rush hour". This is the exact period the authorities would want them turned on! To catch Joe public who is 20 minutes late, or whatever.

If you never speed, you will NEVER get any points. It is as simple as that. It is not OK to say "the more miles you do, the more points you will get. That is true if you do not pay attention anywhere but if people opened up their eyes a bit more, you'd see most of the camera's out there; GATSO's, Truvelo's, SPECS the gantry cams on the M25, the once hidden cams behind signs etc.

The only ones you may not have a chance against are mobile traps looking at you from over 1km away. How far can the eye see? MILES. You just have to look in the right places



AndyMac said:
This is supposed to be all about safety folks, and it clearly isn't. I've been to court several times for speeding and never once have the magistrates asked about my accident history or the amount of mileage I do. they have no interest in safety, it's just a digital knee jerk reaction, "he broke the law, he must be unsafe".
"Yes but we all break the law"
"Tough, he got caught"
You can now be banned for 2 offences of 90mph on an empty motorway with an unblemished driving history while doing 25k miles a year, while some accident prone idiot with accidents all over the place is still on the road causing chaos purely because they never go over the speed limit.
As for the nonsense above about taxidrivers - it's in their interest to stick to the speed limit, they make more money that way (obviously).
Click to expand...

I agree, it's not about safety. It's about money grabbing. But we have to live with it. The best you can do is to keep yourself from getting in to those situations.

AndyMac said:
... and I've done the course so I know.
Click to expand...

How long ago did you do the course? Have you been assessed recently? Honest question, just curious.

The bottom line here, for ALL OF US, is that if you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

How important is a license to each of us?

Cheers,
Andy

P.S apologise for the fragmentedquoting, was neccessary to address a couple of points :)
 
So what your saying is that if I never speed then I won't get any points? Wow, thanks, never realised that. What great advice!
If you never speed, you're either a liar or you don't drive.
When I talk about speed traps I'm talking about mobile traps. A static camera is obviously not a speed trap as it is visible and it's location is published on the web and via GPS warning systems. You never see speed traps during rush hour.
Sometimes a driver will decide to do 50 in a 40, but it's really more about traffic. If everyone is doing 50 then more than likely you'll do it as well.
"It is not OK to say "the more miles you do, the more points you will get""
This is a fact of life deal with it, or at least explain why this is inaccurate.

I did the course a long time ago, with an ex police driver, and at no point was speeding the be all and end all of road safety. In fact his comment was "forget what you learned in the driving test, this is about being a safer driver in the real world". It was a very good course and taught me alot about anticipation and observation which is now just a natural reflex when I'm behind the wheel, which is probably why I've been accident free for 20 years even though I do 25k miles a year, have been done for speeding more times than I can remember and been banned through totting up for a year.
I'm not advocating speeding by any means, my issue is with the obsession with speeding the authorities and the media have bought into, to the exclusion of everything else.
Speeding is a tiny element of safety on our roads and when you're getting more messages about speeding than you are about drunk driving or using a mobile phone then something is clearly wrong. Erradicate speeding and see what happens. We know from the published stats that speed camera's haven't worked over the last 10 years, so isn't it time we dealt with the real causes of death & injury on our roads?
 
audi upgrades
AndyMac said:
So what your saying is that if I never speed then I won't get any points? Wow, thanks, never realised that. What great advice!
If you never speed, you're either a liar or you don't drive.
When I talk about speed traps I'm talking about mobile traps. A static camera is obviously not a speed trap as it is visible and it's location is published on the web and via GPS warning systems. You never see speed traps during rush hour.
Sometimes a driver will decide to do 50 in a 40, but it's really more about traffic. If everyone is doing 50 then more than likely you'll do it as well.
"It is not OK to say "the more miles you do, the more points you will get""
This is a fact of life deal with it, or at least explain why this is inaccurate.

I did the course a long time ago, with an ex police driver, and at no point was speeding the be all and end all of road safety. In fact his comment was "forget what you learned in the driving test, this is about being a safer driver in the real world". It was a very good course and taught me alot about anticipation and observation which is now just a natural reflex when I'm behind the wheel, which is probably why I've been accident free for 20 years even though I do 25k miles a year, have been done for speeding more times than I can remember and been banned through totting up for a year.
I'm not advocating speeding by any means, my issue is with the obsession with speeding the authorities and the media have bought into, to the exclusion of everything else.
Speeding is a tiny element of safety on our roads and when you're getting more messages about speeding than you are about drunk driving or using a mobile phone then something is clearly wrong. Erradicate speeding and see what happens. We know from the published stats that speed camera's haven't worked over the last 10 years, so isn't it time we dealt with the real causes of death & injury on our roads?
Click to expand...

OK, first off, I do speed, but only when conditions in my earlier post are met.

It is obviously not a fact of life, else everyone would be banned!! It's not a case of dealing with it, it's a case of behaving and when you misbehave taking the punishment like a man, not whinging because the cops are baddies and i've never had an accident, and mr volvo over there speeds all the time and this and that and waaaah waah waaaaaaaaahhhh.

Everyone consciously makes the decision to break the speed limit by more than 5mph. If you've been done for speeding x times and banned, then I'd venture to say that your observation isn't what it could be.
If you do not know what speed you are doing, or what the speed limit is, you:

  1. are driving without due care
  2. don't know your speed differential between you and other traffic,
  3. don't know if you are speeding or not. This may lead to harsh braking when you realise the camera is there
  4. have no clue about the distance you will travel in the next second or two
  5. have to guess your stopping distance at the point of emergency braking rather than planning it

You will only exceed the speed limit if you do not pay attention to the speed you are doing. If you cannot tell the officer who stops you how fast you were going for that last mile, you may be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. That might make you take more notice to the speedo!

Advanced driving is about anticipation and observation etc, but at no point does the course advocate "forgetting about the speed limit". How stupid is that??

People who think they should be the judge of "safe speed", using the argument of "I can't be studying the speedo constantly to make sure I do 30 through here" to justify not being able to keep to the limit are just plain ignorant.

Yes, speed is a margnial contributor to the deaths and injuries on the roads, a contribution that it many factors of magnitude smaller than that of bad driving. however, the fact of the matter is that it is not in the givernment's interest to improve driving standards. They could easily make the IAM test the new DSA test.

Why don't they? In some form or another, the government gains financially from people having accidents. Now, that's a sad fact, but a fact nonetheless.
 
As usual you're completely missing the point.
I only detailed my speeding history as a real example of the fact that speeding does not cause accidents. All my points were motorway speeding, caught via VASCAR (unmarked)and twice by laser on a bridge 2 miles away. So absolutely nothing to do with lack of observation, driving without due care or any of the other rubbish you mentioned.

My point is that speeding has become the only focus for the authorities/police/drivers etc to the exclusion of everything else. This allows all the real driving dangers off the hook in many peoples eyes.
It is sending completely the wrong message to the average/useless driver.
I can drive like a **** as long as I stay within the speed limits.
People have been prosecuted for doing 3mph over the limit, so don't give me this ******** about lack of observation on what speed your doing.
Obviously everyone speeds, they don't get banned because most of their driving is during rush hour, when there are no laser traps and they know where the static camera's are and their opportunity to speed is limited by congestion. You'd have to be seriously naive or blind to disbelieve this. There are so many people I work with on 9 points you wouldn't believe, because they are professional drivers, covering 25k+ miles a year and generally drive outside of the rush hour periods.
I agree the driving test is a joke and should be completely revamped and retests should be every 5 years, and every year when you get to 65. This would have a far bigger impact on road safety than the misguided, ill informed obsession with speed.
 
ALPINE said:
the van laws for slower speeds was introduced in the 60s as vans could not stop as quick as cars due to there primative break set up. This is ******** now days as my van could prob stop quicker than an old hot hatch, Golf gti, nova etc.

laws need to be revised. as for my slowing down, i do need to do it but as said b4, its not like im sitting at 90mph everywhere. between 75-80 at any given time as par road conditions. or, going with the flow of traffic.
Click to expand...

I had a guy in cleaning my carpets. He was driving a new Transit and was going on about how quick it was but how rubbish the brakes were. Every van I've driven has had crap brakes and I didn't have them loaded that much. I think a full loaded van WILL have a far longer stopping distance than a car and that's why the lower speed limits are there.
 
As well as crap handling, lack of ABS and the more severe damage caused by such a heavy missile hitting any other vehicle
 
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