AndyMac
Retired from service
"theres bad drivers everywhere but very few of them are in HGV's"
So why do they cause so much death on our roads?
So why do they cause so much death on our roads?
M6 accident 21-10-08
- Thread starter JohnboyC
- Start date
Well if you drive so much then you can't be very observant, either that or you are very very tolerant of other road users.
Imagine you were on a 2 lane motorway.
You are coming up the outside lane at 75-80.
A car in the inside lane moves out in front of you with very little warning, he's doing about 55-60.
He then proceeds to overtake a line of traffic as about 4mph more than they are doing.
YOU are stuck behind this moron.
You'd soon get the ****, why didn't he wait until there was nothing in the outside lane before he pulled out? maybe he has no concept of distance and time, maybe he thought it would be okay to pull out on a faster moving vehicle.
No, it would be me doing 75 in the outside lane, and i wouldn't be flashing a truck to pull out on me, and truck drivers are also in a hurry!
Some times there is not room to move over to let a truck onto the carriageway, and why should I slam on my brakes to make a 45ft gap to let him in to?
The 1 occasional crap truck driver can cause so many problems he's like 50 crap car drivers.
I understand where you are coming from, but that does not give a truck the right to shove some other idiot into my path in the middle lane because he cannot be bothered to wait. And do lorry drivers not own electrical devices? I've seen a truck driver microwaving a pot noodle while driving!
Don't make out that truckers are angels, they're not.
That "massive" gap is called a safe braking distance, then again I suppose a truck driver that sits 2ft away from someone's bumper would think 10ft was almost into tomorrow.
There is NO excuse for tailgating in a 40 tonne lorry, NONE.
Well, why don't all us car drivers just get off the road and let all the truckers have all the roads, sorry that they might get held up a bit, lets kill some car drivers as punishment shall we?
Is that actually a serious comment? please see the picture below for an explanation.
I could fill this tread with truck pile ups where 4-5 innocent car drivers have died and the truckers are just slightly injured.
Don't get me started on that one, I use the A34 on a regular basis, and have sat for two miles behind an artic doing 56MPH before, trying to overtake another only to give up two miles in.
As a recent victim of a LHD tractor unit "Didn't see you" (in broken English with a Hungarian accent), I agree that they should be stopped at the ports/EuroTunnel on the way in if they don't have a suitable blindspot mirror on the RHS. Luckily my incident was a low speed one and has only resulted in a badly damage passenger door. I'm currently waiting to see if the driver will admit responsibility, as usual no chance of an independent witness stopping.
Very sad day for the family involved.
Paul
Any accident involving a HGV that results in somebodies death isnt automatically the HGV drivers fault. I doubt very much that any road death statistics out there proportion the blame on who is actually at fault when they get recorded. In answer to your question my personal opinion is these are big vehicles and when something goes wrong that involves them it goes wrong bigtime so a bit of patience, caution and some common sense helps.
The latter, Im a very laid back chilled person so I guess rather than typing out a amazing rebuttle I'll have to agree to disagree.
As per my original post, I never said all lorry drivers are perfect, just that by and large I thought that they tend to be more curteous and polite. Theres bad drivers in both cars and lorries, most of them are in cars though.
This happened just up the road from here a few months ago, 6 people died, the Lorry driver wasnt at fault, very sad indeed:
Unfortunately not all truckers are like that, my friend is a HazMat driver and he's the nicest guy you could meet.
Personal observations are fine, but there's a lot of people throwing a lot of 'facts' around. Where are they all coming from?
The only stuff I can find (but I've only given it about 15 minutes) that links accident to vehicle involvement is a report from Scotland.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/204167/0054362.pdf
On page 105 there is a table, which for 2006 (most recent available) quotes 172 HGV incidents (just in Scotland) where someone was killed or seriously injured, compared to 2842 for cars. It also gives million km driven per class (an I thought this country used miles?) as 2726 for HGVs and 34302 for cars. That gives an accident rate of 0.0631 incidents/million km for HGVs and 0.0828 incidents/million km for cars.
Doesn't take away from the observation that there could be some pretty simple improvements, but one thing that boils my balls is internet 'facts'.
The only stuff I can find (but I've only given it about 15 minutes) that links accident to vehicle involvement is a report from Scotland.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/204167/0054362.pdf
On page 105 there is a table, which for 2006 (most recent available) quotes 172 HGV incidents (just in Scotland) where someone was killed or seriously injured, compared to 2842 for cars. It also gives million km driven per class (an I thought this country used miles?) as 2726 for HGVs and 34302 for cars. That gives an accident rate of 0.0631 incidents/million km for HGVs and 0.0828 incidents/million km for cars.
Doesn't take away from the observation that there could be some pretty simple improvements, but one thing that boils my balls is internet 'facts'.
- Joined
- Sep 4, 2003
- Messages
- 29,115
- Reaction score
- 3,862
- Points
- 113
- Location
- Solihull, Midlands
- Website
- www.audi-sport.net
Let's add fuel to the debate....
Personal Rant/
Just yesterday whilst driving my mother's Honda Jazz Auto, I had to join onto the M6 with unexpected roadworks, I had one single lane and going uphill to reach my speed to join the motorway. I had to seriously do full throttle all the way up the hill just to get to 50mph and slot into the 50mph restricted moving traffic which happened to be between 2 HGV's. Now I had nowhere to go but to join the traffic, unless I wanted a one way trip into a load of bollards then down the hardshoulder, but the rear of the two HGV's had left me a 3 car length gap to get in! It was only with my experience and driving confidence that I would have joined the traffic @50MPH, I could see a lot of old and maybe inexperienced drivers braking hard at this point, then heading towards the bollards.
Anyways, once I had slotted in, I'm about a car length away from HGV infront, and the one in the rear thought it would be fun to accellerate upto my **** about a foot away in my rearview mirror. You can imagine how I'm feeling now with my whole frikin family on board, and if I was sandwiched, I doubt any of us could walk away unharmed!
I had no choice but to back off the throttle to around 45mph to build a bit of a gap between the HGV infront and myself for safety reasons, then the guy behind eventually backed off.
What was the purpose of the manouver by the HGV? I did nothing wrong, I tried my best to keep the traffic flowing in a low powered car, not too sure what other options I had at that moment in time?
Annoyed by this type of driving by a supposed professional driver when the conditions dictates you should be driving in a different manner.
I'm just annoyed at this particular HGV driver and not generalising them in anyway, it was poor driving from this individual from my point of view - To55er!
/Rant over
Personal Rant/
Just yesterday whilst driving my mother's Honda Jazz Auto, I had to join onto the M6 with unexpected roadworks, I had one single lane and going uphill to reach my speed to join the motorway. I had to seriously do full throttle all the way up the hill just to get to 50mph and slot into the 50mph restricted moving traffic which happened to be between 2 HGV's. Now I had nowhere to go but to join the traffic, unless I wanted a one way trip into a load of bollards then down the hardshoulder, but the rear of the two HGV's had left me a 3 car length gap to get in! It was only with my experience and driving confidence that I would have joined the traffic @50MPH, I could see a lot of old and maybe inexperienced drivers braking hard at this point, then heading towards the bollards.
Anyways, once I had slotted in, I'm about a car length away from HGV infront, and the one in the rear thought it would be fun to accellerate upto my **** about a foot away in my rearview mirror. You can imagine how I'm feeling now with my whole frikin family on board, and if I was sandwiched, I doubt any of us could walk away unharmed!
I had no choice but to back off the throttle to around 45mph to build a bit of a gap between the HGV infront and myself for safety reasons, then the guy behind eventually backed off.
What was the purpose of the manouver by the HGV? I did nothing wrong, I tried my best to keep the traffic flowing in a low powered car, not too sure what other options I had at that moment in time?
Annoyed by this type of driving by a supposed professional driver when the conditions dictates you should be driving in a different manner.
I'm just annoyed at this particular HGV driver and not generalising them in anyway, it was poor driving from this individual from my point of view - To55er!
/Rant over
AndyMac
Retired from service
So its now the internets fault, really clutching at straws here aren't we?
Apart from it being ****** obvious that HGV's cause more deaths than any other vehicle per mile, there are plenty of reports that back it up.
I got my data from a couple of sources, a greenparty.org report that quoted:
"6.2 HGVs are involved in a disproportionately high rate of all RTAs, and when collisions do occur they are likely to cause serious harm. Due to their weight and lack of manoeuvrability, it is unsurprising that HGVs are involved in more fatal accidents per kilometre travelled than cars. Indeed, the rate for cars is roughly half of that for HGVs.
6.3 Below is shown some key Statistics on HGV traffic related accidents:
14,526 HGVs Involved in injury accidents
13,278 Injury accidents involving HGVs
576 Deaths in these accidents"
And also freightonrail.org that reported some transport 2000 data as:
"Although accounting for only 6% of vehicle kilometres travelled, lorries are responsible for 18% of road deaths. In 1999 HGVs caused 617 out of 3423 fatalities. Road Accidents GB
HGVs are up to eight times more dangerous than cars in terms of fatalities per mile travelled." T2000 research
So I think we can all agree at least on one thing, the data is pretty damning wherever you get it from.
Patience, caution & common sense, thats a good one, I did a quick run to brighton audi this afternoon, lets see now, cement lorry stuck in outside lane trying to overtake a fiesta going faster than him up a hill, uuurrm common sense that one & 2nd a fairly long HGV in left hand lane on dual coming upto a roundabout, signals to get into right lane, so I went down left as it was my turning left, whats he do way back from roundabout, starts to swing left into my fecking lane for no reason still signalling for right lane & then decides to take up all the lanes, roundabout was big didnt need the turning area he was trying to get, I'm not exactly wet behind ears I know the room they need to get round safely, this lorry driver was a complete tosser like many I've seen on the roads, attitude of we're bigger so feck of
the roads require respect for eachother not just cause I'm bigger than you or my cars a ****** SUV etc, you get my point, but Lorry drivers as I've already said seem to have there own personal set of rules, as I've also said I'm not saying all are the same but most the ones I've seen seem to have the same attitude, they should respect safety, smaller vehicles & allow for the unforeseen, not do as JoJo has said get up your **** on purpose to be threatening/imposing, that really ****** me of big time cause there's no need for it, especially when they hit you & then they say oh the lorry driver is in shock, yeah fecking should be if he kills someone for there bad driving.
Yes there are bad car drivers that pull in last minute in scenarios like Jojo's but mostly lorries can see alot more than us from up higher I believe, they are trained to be more aware(or should of been anyway) so whats the excuse huh!!!!!!
Get his number plate and phone the company.
You will find in this BENIFITS Led Nation of ours most companys are struggling for HGV Drivers so they are forced to employ anybody who comes along and sometimes they are bad but i still say alot more HGV drivers are responsible proffesionals. Fraid i cannot say that about the private/company car fraternity in which the good drivers are the minority.
They are big and they are heavy and when they are placed in an unexpected situation there can be carnage.
The guy who was tailgating you deserves the sack at least to lose his licence for 10 years would be preferable.
Good and bad in any type of vehicle.
AndyMac
Retired from service
"Good and bad in any type of vehicle."
There it is again, is that all anyone can come up with? For the millionth time "yes we know", what we're saying is that it is the responsibilty of HGV drivers to look out for us poor amateurs, like we have to look out for suicidal cyclists and nutters on scooters/bikes. It's their job!! And while we all agree that there are many good HGV drivers out there, the trend seems to be downward so we need to do something to limit the damage the poorer drivers can do. And yes that will be at the expense of the better drivers, just like good car drivers have to compromise their behaviour on the roads for the benefit of idiots asleep at the wheel, on their mobiles or just plain incompetant.
And I'm not buying the driver shortage as either true or a valid excuse for poor skills at the wheel when they are supposed to be trained professionals.
There it is again, is that all anyone can come up with? For the millionth time "yes we know", what we're saying is that it is the responsibilty of HGV drivers to look out for us poor amateurs, like we have to look out for suicidal cyclists and nutters on scooters/bikes. It's their job!! And while we all agree that there are many good HGV drivers out there, the trend seems to be downward so we need to do something to limit the damage the poorer drivers can do. And yes that will be at the expense of the better drivers, just like good car drivers have to compromise their behaviour on the roads for the benefit of idiots asleep at the wheel, on their mobiles or just plain incompetant.
And I'm not buying the driver shortage as either true or a valid excuse for poor skills at the wheel when they are supposed to be trained professionals.
1) Thanks for showing the data, now a lot of the stuff you have been saying has more credibility.
2) Did it come from the internet?
Maybe Andy's did come from the net but probably respected factual sites, but my posts come from what I've seen today & you know whats funny, not once today did I see a car driver act as a lorry driver did which is strange!!!!!
That's all well and good, but when you consider that nobody drives a truck for pleasure/social reasons and that all truckers are 'professional drivers', that accident rate is simply shocking.
AndyMac
Retired from service
No I went and spent 4 hours at the library with the micro fiche!
Of course it came from the internet
The argument here is not whether HGV's are more dangerous per mile than any other vehicle. That's well understood, and ****** obvious if you've ever driven anywhere and/or ever watched the news or traffic cops.
The argument should be about the best way to reduce the shocking number of fatalities. As the original post, sad & terrible as it is, kind of confirms the devastation caused on a weekly basis by HGV's on our roads. Arguing over how bad that data is is pretty pointless. The point is it's bad, very bad, wherever you look, so can we get over the "I don't believe it's that bad" mentality and also stop taking the daily observations made here so personally. No one is suggesting that anyone on here is guilty of the same incompetance. I'm a car driver and the first to admit the standard of car driving in the UK is diabolical. I don't try and defend it just because I'm included in that group, and neither should the HGV drivers on here. Bikes are the same but at least they usually take themselves out of the gene pool by their behaviour rather than innocent motorists (and I know a lot of bikers are killed by idiots in cars, but a lot also just seem to commit suicide as well).
I disagree. A lot of people form opinions when they're based solely on "what someone said". Notice I never disagreed with someones opinions. I've observed a whole lot of stupid stuff done by HGVs too. But people making ignorant decisions based on something they haven't bothered to check out happens all too often - it's what the newspapers rely on. It's nice to know that you actually bothered to check, 'cos a lot of people don't. It's a shame that you didn't say so initially, but each to their own.
Notice I also agree that there are some things that should be done. Perhaps I could have asked in a more friendly manner where all the facts were coming from, but somehow I doubt you'd find that way as much fun.
Notice I also agree that there are some things that should be done. Perhaps I could have asked in a more friendly manner where all the facts were coming from, but somehow I doubt you'd find that way as much fun.
There was a massive driver shortage in the UK a while back until our freinds across the english channel came over to help out.
AndyMac
Retired from service
I wouldn't post "these are the facts" if it was based on heresay, apart from anything else I'd get flamed pretty quickly if I was making it up.
But yes I spend all day having to be friendly to largely idiots, so forgive me if I just cut to the chase on here, it's one way of blowing off steam.....
Can't be doing with sugar coating everything forr the benefit of those on here of a sensitive nature.
But yes I spend all day having to be friendly to largely idiots, so forgive me if I just cut to the chase on here, it's one way of blowing off steam.....
Can't be doing with sugar coating everything forr the benefit of those on here of a sensitive nature.
There was a massive driver shortage in the UK a while back until our freinds across the english channel came over to help out.
That was nice of them, now they can feck off back there cause they're one of the big offenders to as they just flaunt the laws & dont give a *****
Scuse me i drive all sorts of trucks for pleasure only, the smallest a 7.5 tonner and the largest grossed 60 tonnes. Try one sometime especially the heavies its really quite enjoyable (40 hours a week another story) even i who only drive a little get hellish problems with bikes, pedestrians, and motorbikes and cars in front, behind and worse down the sides where you are struggling to see.
Really you would find a 44 ton artic far more enjoyable than your Audi's !
I do anyway
Wouldnt worry andy cause I would have thought with the detail of your facts it was obvious it was from reliable sources, wasnt exactly text speak was it.
& ye know that feeling, there are fair few about, to many people go round the long way to a point, just be direct & to the point, hey if it offends people thats there problem, at least they know where you stand, havnt got time for nancying about just to please everyone else cause who said you're supposed to be friends with everyone you meet or chat with huh, at least we have an opinion
Really you would find a 44 ton artic far more enjoyable than your Audi's !
Yeah of course I will, I'll go trade mine in right now so I can drive like a tosser aswell, not directed at you personally & you cant deny there are some real bad ones out there, but I've driven fair few miles around the country on all kinds roads & in some different vehicles, large vans, cars, smaller vans & the common thing for me to see if the total lack of respect lorry drivers have for other road users, yeah admittedly there are car drivers that dont make it easy for you at all, but thats no excuse to drive in the manner I see often, only just yesterday saw some stupid driving by few lorries, thank god I dont do so many miles anymore
I understand the way they have to drive given size but some are just blatantly bad & have the attitude of king of the road stay out of our way, of course I wouldnt argue with a truck but as Jojo experience shows which I've had happen to me many a time, they think its clever to be threatening, then when they actually drive over a car cause they're to close they're all sorry which doesnt help the poor family thats lost in the wreckage
Just ******* say it how it ******* well is will you for ***** sake!!! lololol
right, where is that sugar?
I know i'll just pop to sainsburys in my Scania R620 and get some...
lol, good reply actually nice truck but if WCC are doing trucks now then the economic climate must be bad, lol
treblesykes
Registered User
right, where is that sugar?
I know i'll just pop to sainsburys in my Scania R620 and get some...
Lucky for you a nice truck dropped the sugar off at sainsburys, If it was up to Andymac you would have to drive all the way to the sugar refinery to collect it as trucks would all be banned, that's after you drove to the fuel refinery to fill your tank.
AndyMac
Retired from service
Trucks would be banned? Yes that's exactly what I said.
What bit of "stop taking things so personally" didn't you understand?
What bit of "stop taking things so personally" didn't you understand?
God how did we all cope for thousands of years before trucks came along?
I could cycle to the refinery, because at least I wouldn't have to worry about being mowed down by a trucker eating his pork pie.
I could cycle to the refinery, because at least I wouldn't have to worry about being mowed down by a trucker eating his pork pie.
Neilybabs
Guest
zzzzzz sorry - i lost interest the second you said 'durrrr' like a teenager for the.......how many times is it now?
Neilybabs
Guest
