RS4 Engine start button on S3

nigelhobden said:
That osir pedal seems to be for the Golf range then mate, if the fixings internally are same, be ok I hope, TT shop isnt showing anything really, is there a email for osir?
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Yes it is, the GTI and S3 pedals are one and the same.

DSC00531.jpg


DSC00533.jpg
 
In my experience the reason why the renault & other car makers had the plug in fob is security & its the earlier implementation of it, its the same as our keys mate, only the the locking/alarm is always powered by the lithium battery, this doesnt do anything on the immobiliser side, they dont want a battery in the immoboliser side of the fob that you slide into the dash so its not powered all the time, it has the chip like ours do in the top part of the key that is only activated when the the electrical field(on audi its in the ignition) that then provides power inductively to the chip to generate the disarm code so can be started, with newer ones I would hazard a guess they of course are battery powered which allows you to leave in pocket but have now created a higher encryption based security system that cant be cracked(as yet) by scanners etc that higher end car thieves might have.

But to add to this either they are powered all the time for keyless via battery or they have now created a system that can create a electrical field around the car that then activates the unlock & the immobiliser circuit, I really cant see this being the case cause could have health issues as they do warn about mobiles, I really dont know but from my technical knowledge battery powered seems more likely.

Maybe someone on forum with keyless could tell us if the keyless system does require changing batteries in the fob which sits in pocket so we know if its battery or electrical field based, anyone?

Now back to the start button, the plug part number is 8L0 971 883 which would denote from the a3 range, wires I havnt got part number for(yet), but now you have the part number for the plug, they can easily find the wires for that plug, if they cant then they are pretty thick, lol, lol.
 
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nigelhobden said:
... could have health issues as they do warn about mobiles, ...
Click to expand...

This is not proved though and with so many mobile phones transmitting what harm (until proved otherwise) would it be for a car to transmit?
Their's talk about making cars that 'talk' to each other to aid traffic flow, which again will transmit.
I'm with you though - I'd be interested to know which way round 'keyless' transmits.
 
Yeah I might post on the A5 forum to ask, but I really cant imagine the car sending out a constant electrical field around the perimiter of the vehicle, thats gotta eat some juice on battery, must be the fob, might speak to my local parts guy who knows fair bit & also friendly with the head technician for brighton audi.

I think Clifford tried this with a perimeter sensor while back & it failed miserably thats why it was axed

Very intrigued cause I could see stupid lawsuits in US cropping up for this if it does send constant electrical field out.

No its not proved, but I would hazard a guess the concentration of the signal from your cell for say 30 minutes so close to the electrical impulses the brain sends out makes you wonder huh, lol, lol, look at me fecking mad cows disease, lol.
 
On the Mercedes S600 and the Bentley Continentals you touch the door handle and they open. Presumably when you touch the handle the sensor in the handle triggers the car to send out a signal to detect the key\fob.

I assume the car sends out a signal to try to read the key before starting, rather than the key sending a signal out.

I know that if you get out of the car with the fob in your pocket the displays tell you that the fob is outside the car, so it is presumably the car searching for the key.
 
Yeah I noticed on the door handles that there is a little square which looks like a sensor of some kind, could be a conductive sensor for when your finger/hand is over it activates the search, but still we dont know if it is using an electrical field which then sparks the fob into life or the fob has a battery, anyone know if the fobs for keyless have lithiums inside?
 
Ok update number......................

Taken the button apart as its easy to dimantle without breaking anything.

There are of course 8 pins, but after a pin test/analyse it is actually only using 4 pins, also when you put pcb upto a bright light you can see the tracks on the double sided board & only 4 pins have tracks on them, 2 pins for the lighting & 2 for the start button, so this looks very promising people, actually almost a dead cert of easy solution(dont quote me until working)

The plug which part number I mentioned earlier has the pin numbers on the bottom incase you get confused, I did, lol.

It has 5 led's for the lighting, 1 is solely for the word Engine Start, the other 4 are positioned under the start button on the pcb at the 4 corners even if it is a circle, lol, you will see, which uses same circuit for all which are on pins 1 & 3 which would be a very low current as the single one lit up when I stuck my meter on a continuity test, has resistors inline aswell.

The start button itself uses 2 wires, pin 4 & 6, but as its a very small board & tracks are very thin it would no doubt use a pulse to a relay circuit that did the switching of the heavy start load as it would probably blow the board/tracks with that kinda current through, so based on this it would be a relay job to the ignition & I can imagine it would have 2 ways of being wired.

1. Wire in relay that requires you to hold the button down until the engine starts.
2. Timer relay so it holds the circuit for say 2-3 seconds for engine start so all you do is as Dave says press it once let go & timer relay does the rest.

I would say 1st option is safest so you dont screw the starter motor as if it starts in 1 second it will continue to power the starter for the other 2 seconds which we all know that horrible sound it makes when holding key in place after started, god no, but I think we could design a circuit that would cut of the power to the starter once its started so doesnt continue the power & feck it up, maybe a pickup of the radio or something as that goes quiet when it starts, just ideas at moment.

But Dave, do have 1 question mate, is your start button/words always lit up or only when the lights are on?

Thanks.

Nigel.
 
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nigelhobden said:
The start button itself uses 2 wires, pin 4 & 6, but as its a very small board & tracks are very thin it would no doubt use a pulse to a relay circuit that did the switching of the heavy start load as it would probably blow the board/tracks with that kinda current through, so based on this it would be a relay job to the ignition & I can imagine it would have 2 ways of being wired.

1. Wire in relay that requires you to hold the button down until the engine starts.
2. Timer relay so it holds the circuit for say 2-3 seconds for engine start so all you do is as Dave says press it once let go & timer relay does the rest.

I would say 1st option is safest so you dont screw the starter motor as if it starts in 1 second it will continue to power the starter for the other 2 seconds which we all know that horrible sound it makes when holding key in place after started, god no, but I think we could design a circuit that would cut of the power to the starter once its started so doesnt continue the power & feck it up, maybe a pickup of the radio or something as that goes quiet when it starts, just ideas at moment.
Click to expand...

Sounds like we are getting somewhere now. I think option 1 is the best bet. Have you been able to tell if the circuit stays open when you have the button pressed, or if it just sends a single signal when you press the button?

I've seen some posts on the web where people installing the S2000 start button have used a relay to power the starter. Not sure what it is called but it had pins 85,86,87 and 30 (or something other than 30).

If you try turning the key while the engine is running nothing happens, so presumably there is some way to tap whatever controls the "engine running" signal and using that to prevent the start button from firing while the engine is running.
 
You mean closed circuit when you press the button mate as open circuit actually cuts the circuit, anyway circuit is on constant when you hold the button pressed & then circuit breaks when you let go, as it has no relays etc it wont do a pulse circuit fella.

I actually bought ages ago the S2000 start button of demon tweaks, ended up with about 6 of them by mistake, sold them & bought this one, the S2000 style one was a generic one for all cars & used the same principle as my 1st option, relayed circuit, nothing fancy.

Ah so doesnt hold the starter on when turning key after started, thats very interesting & very handy for us huh.

Have to switch the start button on via ignition though or I suspect as my crappy sharkfin aerial did on my old S3 would eventually drain battery, wasnt fun coming back to UK from italy with flat battery in stansted car park, that was promptly removed, lol, anyway.

Dave I know its a tall order, but whats chance of letting us know the voltage/current on the start button power path & the the led power path on your starter mate so we dont blow, if a no then no worries, thought I'd ask though.
 
Another update.

I have tested the led's on the car, as I dont have an ashtray under my climate there is a spare plug hidden under the gearknob surrounding trim which has power that would be used to illuminate the ashtray at night which is very handily switched via the lights anyway, cool, so I tapped into this, hey presto led's work perfectly & switch on/off via lights, its actually got 1.5 volts on wires when lights of, then goes to 13 volts when lights are on, I did take some images but in middle of something so when get chance will try & upload to my server & link over to here.

So halfway there people.

Ok can anyone tell me without me having to take the steering column apart again at the moment what the current is used by ignition to start the car so I can hunt a relay out.
 
just been testing this today. the cigarette lighter connector has three pins\wires - red, brown and grey. the brown is earth, the red is 12v+ for the lighter and the grey is the feed for the illumination of the ring.

on the start button, pins 1 and 3 are for the illumination. all you need to do is get a splice connector and connect the wires from pins 1 and 3 to the brown and grey wires (the two outside pins on the white connector). This will give you illumination when the exterior lights are on.

I also took some photos, but am not at home at the moment so can't post them.

I can also confirm that pins 4 and 6 are for the button itself and that when the button is depressed current flows through the pins.

did you manage to find the part numbers for the repair wires?

i also tried when starting the car earlier to turn the key and keep it turned to see what would happen. the engine started and did not keep trying to start. presumably there is something inside the ignition barrell which controls this?

Can't help you out on the current for the ignition unfortunately.

No need to have the start button on an ignition to prevent the battery being drained as without pressing the button there is no current flowing anywhere to drain the battery.

Looks like where are inching closer and closer to a final solution.
 
Hey Marc, looks like we are both getting there, so my wires/pins were right, just went to look at the night time glow,sad but cool, lol, lol, I just pushed mine into place this morning already after testing as wires are obvious & accessible so just need to connect for starting now.

I was about to say cig lighter maybe not good idea, but grey is switch illuminated on different circuit so should be safe as lighter has fair bit current, spike down those wires which would I think damage the button.

So means there's 2 ways to light it up, both very easy to wire in & same effect, so cool.

Thinking about it, it should be easy to wire in as its only picking up the power circuit turned on by key position 1 & then when button pressed creates the power to key position 2 to start, so it just has to work in parallel with the current wiring, yeah in my head it should be damn easy as all the wiring is there already, just needs relay switched via button as to high current I think for the button to start directly, I'll get my meter out tomorrow, **** now gotta take the trims of again, lol, just put back.
 
Actually I'm tempted to do tonight, typical me, arrrgggh or I will be thinking about it all night now, curiosity does kill something, maybe not the cat but................me
 
Ok tomorrow it is, as I am certainly not taking all the mfsw etc of tonight as to get easier access to the wiring its best to take of, trust me I tried tonight, break your back getting under there onto the loom as its that tightly wound in the column area.

I'm definitely buying an attachment for my meter or new meter to measure current without ripping into the wires, should have done years ago, lol, fleabay here I come.

Damnnnnnnn
 
Jolly good. I'll wait until you work out the wiring for the ignition before doing any more. I'm going to order the 8-pin connector from my dealer in the morning and will see if he can work out the part number for the repair wires.
 
Just ordered the flat housing contact (8L0 971 883) from my dealer (€4.94+VAT). Special order item so will take 4-5 days. I believe the part number for the repair wire is 000979009, but we'll wait until the connector arrives before ordering them.

Here is a photo of the button with the lights illuminated:
RS4StartIlluminated.jpg
 
Glad someone got the part number while I try & figure the wiring, lol,
 
Here's mine in place ready to wire to ignition circuit(I Hope)

Its brighter at night of course as isnt on unless the lights are triggered by auto or manual.

If anyone want to see images of the wiring etc I found/did so far check link below, as I have all the images but no point listing 10 if not needed.

http://nigelhobden.net/RS4 Start Button.htm


DSC01103%20%5b800x600%5d.JPG
 
Sorry should have posted link rather than edit previous post:

http://nigelhobden.net/RS4%20Start%20Button.htm

I havnt had time to sort & add brief description of the images & how I got to that, but basically they are images of the spare ashtray plug I used, I tested the voltage when lights of which was 1.5 & lights on that was 13, then images of the button broken down & leds off/on etc, others are self-insanitory, lol.
 
I am awaiting my clamp meter as I dont really wanna start taking all those ****** wires of the cloth tape & cutting into them, just use clamp to check current then cut into ones needed, if I get impatient you wil be 1st to know, lol.
 
Yeah, better safe than sorry when it comes to the ignition.

Are there any odd bits to the centre console removal? Or is it just a case of armrest out, gear lever surround off, undo the torx screws under it, remove the 3 8mm bolts from the footwells (or is that feetwell?), remove the grab handles.
 
Well might be a few more bolts, grab handles have the bolts in 3 points on each one, 1 under the climate at the rear which is the slightly pain in **** one, then the one actually cleverly hidden on the underside of the handles & then the last one under the shifter surround, also the cubby hole tray is bolted down with 2 bolts right in front of the shifter or ashtray depending on your car, then just the rear 2 under the rear ashtray & then the side bolts in footwells 2 each side I think or maybe 1 & 2 as you say, armrest you know anyway, I assume this is for the change in tray.

Shifter stick in D or S, trim of by handbrake to remove but to be honest I doubt you will pull out fully just unsrew, unclip, slide new one in screw back up easy as one end slots into a retainer anyway.
 
I'm a bit confused - Are you saying there's no need to remove the entire console to replace the tray? Do I just need to remove the gear lever surround, undo the torx screws and remove\install the trays?

My connector should hopefully arrive by the end of the week, but I reckon I'll hold off until the following weekend as it is a bank holiday here (June 2nd). Hopefully you'll have figured out the necessary wiring by then and I can get it hooked in at the same time.
 
No mate you do have to undo all the screws, bolts etc, then you lift the console up but not completely out, unsrew the tray, change trays, screw back up then lower the console & bolt back in,
 
Its pretty much almost out anyway when you lift so if you find it easier to take out fully as I did to change the trays then up to you fella, wont cause any issues tbh, personal preference really mate.
 
Picked up the connector earlier from my parts dude and managed to snag two of the repair wires FOC when I asked if he could work out which wires I needed. Happy days!

Will hopefully get around to installing it next weekend.

Any update on the ignition wiring Nigel?
 
I just won my clamp meter on fleabay, just saved myself £100+, they are £160 from new plus vat I think, bought decent one as will use for for home & car, £60 bargain as far as I'm concerned, know it works as the guy sent me new image of testing DC on his AMP in back of car, lol, cool, new toy, sad but still a toy, lol, will save me lots of ******* about with wires now.

So no doubt arrive tues/wed so soon as got will do.
 
I havn't had the time to get cracking on my install so I decided to ask my Audi dealer to do the install :redface: They reckon the wiring of the ignition is simple, just a matter of disconnecting two wires from the ignition barrel and connecting them to the start button...well thats what the service manager said to me anyways:unsure:. Car is booked in on Tuesday, I hope they pull off a decent job of it.
 
Interesting that the service manager is offering to do that for you. Presumably that will be warrantied by them since they are doing the work?

You might ask him how it was done when he's finished. Did he quote you a price?
 
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