Another fuel thread - bear with me...

[Si_S3]

After test driving the S3 and before I placed my order, I specifically asked the dealer if it's recommended to use Super and was told no, normal unleaded is fine. I asked again on collection and was told there is no loss of performance using normal unleaded, and these new engines are designed as such.

Much to my surprise, I get home to find in the manual that it recommends Super, but premium unleaded (95 Ron) can be used, but with a slight loss of power.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm prepared to pay the extra for the good stuff, it just annoys me that I asked the question twice - not sure if the dealer is just mis-informed or I was mislead!

Has anyone else come across this?

 

[Battlekrapz]

I never believe what the stealership tells me, they don't have a clue. All they care about is getting your money off of you.

 

[veeeight]

It doesn't matter to dealers - all they are interested in is filling you half a tank of the cheapest unleaded available.

No surprise that they don't know the finer details of the car.

 

[Pulp84]

Oddly.....over on the A1 forum, many people who have just had S1's delivered have fuel cap stickers saying "minimum 95ron Super"

Where as the S3 fuel cap says something like "97 Ron super" and then under neath "95ron Super minimum". I take that as you should fill it with 97 all the time BUT it can run on 95. The S1 cap is misleading as 95 is all that's stated. If you didn't read the S1 manual (which recommends 97ron) you could only ever put 95 in it. Odd they are not they same seeing as the engine is fairly similar.

My dealer said it should always be Super in the tank. Very inconsistent across the dealer network what advice you get.

 

[Si_S3]

I never believe what the stealership tells me, they don't have a clue. All they care about is getting your money off of you.

It doesn't matter to dealers - all they are interested in is filling you half a tank of the cheapest unleaded available.

No surprise that they don't know the finer details of the car.

May be I just expect too much - it's all in the details for me and my OCD!

Liking your sig by the way Veeeight

 

[Si_S3]

Oddly.....over on the A1 forum, many people who have just had S1's delivered have fuel cap stickers saying "minimum 95ron Super"

Where as the S3 fuel cap says something like "97 Ron super" and then under neath "95ron Super minimum". I take that as you should fill it with 97 all the time BUT it can run on 95. The S1 cap is misleading as 95 is all that's stated. If you didn't read the S1 manual (which recommends 97ron) you could only ever put 95 in it. Odd they are not they same seeing as the engine is fairly similar.

My dealer said it should always be Super in the tank. Very inconsistent across the dealer network what advice you get.

To be honest I did have to check the manual against the sticker on the cap a couple of times, just to make sure I'd read and understood it correctly

 

[cemerson]

Usual story, dealers know nothing about the product and will tell you anything you want to hear to get an order.

 

[cilurnum]

I have sympathy with the dealer. The manual is simply a bit of **** covering by the manufacturer and to make money for fuel companies. There is no vehicle that should not be able to take 95 otherwise what's the point? You might as well just get a diesel.

I fill up with 95 all the time and occasionally put some higher quality fuel to help the engine along in but I would never fill up with 97 all the time.

 

[veeeight]

You will categorically NOT get 300PS from a S3 using 95RON fuel.

Period.

If you choose to run a S3 8V on 95RON, the engine ECU will ****** the ignition timing so as not to knock, by doing this it well develop less power compared to if it was fueled with 98RON.

 

[Dan_G]

Also, fuel economy is also improved with higher octane fuel, even more so in a forced air induction vehicle.

Some interesting discussions coming out of the US at the moment about raising their Octane level so engine manufacturers can reduce knock safety levels and get better MPG from their cars - making them more efficient at home and potentially opening up the overseas market for them too.

 

[a3_phil]

You will categorically NOT get 300PS from a S3 using 95RON fuel.

Period.

If you choose to run a S3 8V on 95RON, the engine ECU will ****** the ignition timing so as not to knock, by doing this it well develop less power compared to if it was fueled with 98RON.

I have nothing to back this up but I always thought that the rated power of the engine was on regular 95RON fuel. Surely someone would have taken the manufacturers to task by now if the rated power was only available on a different fuel?

 

[Mdritchie]

You will categorically NOT get 300PS from a S3 using 95RON fuel.

Period.

If you choose to run a S3 8V on 95RON, the engine ECU will ****** the ignition timing so as not to knock, by doing this it well develop less power compared to if it was fueled with 98RON.

This is also my understanding. Furthermore I don't see any logic in the concept of filling up with 98RON "now and again" as you are providing the car with an inconsistent octane rating resulting in the ECU having to frequently alter engine timing to inhibit knocking every time you switch back to 95RON. If you are going to fuel with 95RON (which the car will run on) there is no benefit to the engine in periodically fuelling with 98RON, it does "clean the engine" or anything of the sort. Octane ratings measure the fuel's resistance to premature ignition not how "pure" the fuel is. I've heard report of some of the early 1.8TFSI engines suffering really bad cavitation damage from low RON fuels in the USA due to insufficient knock retardation from the ECU.

It's a relatively high compression, forced indication engine. Give it 98RON - you will get optimal performance and there's mounting evidence you fuel bills will come down due to improved fuel consumption anyway! WIN WIN!

 

[veeeight]

I have nothing to back this up but I always thought that the rated power of the engine was on regular 95RON fuel. Surely someone would have taken the manufacturers to task by now if the rated power was only available on a different fuel?

Directive 80/1269/EEC "Determination of Engine Power"
5.1.3.8.2. "In the case of positive ignition engines, the fuel used must be a commercial fuel, without any supplementary additive."

For the Audi S3, Manufacturer states: 98RON is recommended (commercially available), with 95RON being a minimum (also commercially available).

 

[a3_phil]

Directive 80/1269/EEC "Determination of Engine Power"
5.1.3.8.2. "In the case of positive ignition engines, the fuel used must be a commercial fuel, without any supplementary additive."

For the Audi S3, Manufacturer states: 98RON is recommended (commercially available), with 95RON being a minimum (also commercially available).

I stand corrected.

Interesting that more isn't made of this. I'd have thought with the manufacturer's ******* competition over power there'd be all kinds of shennanigans using things like 102RON BP fuel etc.

 

[veeeight]

One of my previous employers had a 103 RON pump in the compound of the test track

We were only to use it for high speed durability runs, and had to obtain special dispensation to draw from it

 

[cilurnum]

Of course you're going to get less power with a lower octane fuel. Not terribly controversial I don't think. However, no petrol car out there should be requiring it for reliable running and the ways it gets justified never ceases to amaze.

Most super unleaded out there is [a lot] more expensive than diesel, so you're going to have to see some pretty amazing efficiency improvements - which you just don't. You can certainly combine a higher octane fuel in your tank in part, but fuelling on something that is consistently a lot more expensive than diesel and that you will never see efficiency savings on this side of the next ice age I find crazy.

Another reason to get a diesel that I hadn't actually thought of........

 

[veeeight]

And yet more inconsistencies, fallacies and generalisations.

No petrol car should require it for reliable running?

Actually there are quite a number of production cars that do require a minimum of Super Unleaded for reliable running.

 

[cilurnum]

If you can afford to run it great, but I didn't think a car in this class would be specifying specifically it in its manual. That basically means there's grounds for you voiding your warranty right there, so no, this car will not run on anything other than 'super unleaded'.

I think you need to brush up on general English comprehension, lie down or have a cold bath or something sweetheart because you're a bit hot under the collar there.

 

[veeeight]

Pretty sure my grasp of English comprehension is good enough to understand when you say

"No petrol car out there".

Sweeping generalisation much?

 

[cilurnum]

If I'd said "No petrol car out there requires a higher octane fuel" then that would be a generalisation, and an incorrect one because this car would have already proved me wrong. However, what I said was:

However, no petrol car out there should be requiring it for reliable running....

See what I did there? I highlighted the part that you couldn't, or wouldn't (or just plain didn't see more likely), read in bold. Isn't that lovely?

No, I don't think that should be the case. Road going cars should all be able to run on the lowest grade of pump fuel available without feeling the need to specify anything else in their manuals. If you run a higher grade fuel and get more power and better economy then great, but it shouldn't be required. If you have a Ferrari you wheel out every once in a blue moon then OK, I get it, but a S3 is an everyday road going car (albeit a very nice one) and you never know what circumstances you'll be in or where you'll need to fill up.

 

[Pulp84]

Pilot?

 

[veeeight]

No petrol car should require it for reliable running?

Actually there are quite a number of production cars that do require a minimum of Super Unleaded for reliable running.

^ See what I did there?

You generalised that no petrol car should require "it" for reliable running.

To which I replied that there were petrol cars that did require "it" for reliable running.

Post #17 in case you get confused again.

 

[veeeight]

Pilot?

I don't think even Pilot was this obtuse or arrogant.

 

[Pulp84]

I don't think even Pilot was this obtuse or arrogant.

Fair point. Lol

 

[Mdritchie]

3.9% increase in efficiency required, hardly "amazing" nor was it the main motivation. I don't recall anyone saying anything about reliability. As Audi state 95RON is an acceptable minimum it seems ridiculous to suggest that using it may affect your warranty. A lot of words are being interpreted rather creatively here

 

[cilurnum]

^ See what I did there?

No....... It's exactly the same sentence and it doesn't mean anything different regardless of what you did or didn't highlight.

You generalised that no petrol car should require "it" for reliable running.

No, I did not because that's not what that sentence means nor is that what what you want it to mean, no matter how desperately you'd like to reframe the English language.

This is not being obtuse or arrogant, you have a pretty severe problem which you need to cool off.

 

[Pulp84]

Verbatim - S3 fuel cap sticker guidance note from owners manual:-

"The use of Super Plus (98 Ron) is recommended. If that type of fuel is not available, premium petrol (95 Ron) can be used with a slight loss of power".

I'm a correct in thinking that in the UK at least "super" and "premium" is 97 Ron plus ? Slight loss of power is good enough answer for me not to use 95 Ron.

I love filling my S3 with super. The smell of it wafting up from the fuel pump gets me going. Another reason not to buy a dreary diesel.

 

[veeeight]

...you have a pretty severe problem which you need to cool off.

I can assure you that I'm not the one with "a pretty severe problem", nor the one requiring "cooling off"

Perhaps you night reconsider a re-adjustment of your interaction

As it appears that I'm slightly more self aware than you, in order to preserve this thread for the enjoyment of others, I'm out of here.

 

[cilurnum]

I can assure you that I'm not the one with "a pretty severe problem"...

In my book of social problems, [deliberately] misreading what someone says or writes and then kicking off about it is quite well up the list..... But, hey I'm obviously in the minority here.

 

[cilurnum]

You're going to need much better than 4% economy savings to make that pay.

Standard unleaded is 91 from what I remember, premium is 95.

If it's recommended then that's the engine's optimal fuel. That's what 'recommendation' means. It's not 'if you feel like it'. VAG have played with words like this in the past and it looks like they're still doing it.

When something like that is put into a manual just don't be surprised when a dealer uses it to get out of warranty issues over things like piston problems if they think they can go down that route....or you get a large repair bill or even one for a new engine mysteriously once it's out of warranty. It's been done before and previous VAG engines had problems with cold compression. TFSI and direct injection engines have been well known for it and they've historically sailed very close to their knock limits. This is their get out.

EDIT: I should have known when the dealer above covered up and said it would be fine on ordinary unleaded but they usually go a bit further to cover themselves. Some dealers tell you it runs fine on 95 but they personally use 98 to 'help the injectors' or something made up like that. It's their way of complying with running on 95 but covering the problems.

 

[The Challinor]

One of my previous employers had a 103 RON pump in the compound of the test track

We were only to use it for high speed durability runs, and had to obtain special dispensation to draw from it

Top Gear track ?

 

[The Challinor]

And yet more inconsistencies, fallacies and generalisations.

No petrol car should require it for reliable running?

Actually there are quite a number of production cars that do require a minimum of Super Unleaded for reliable running.

My cars got a custom map and need 99 octane momentum to run or it will be really poorly

 

[Pulp84]

The sticker on the fuel cap and the owners manual are not aimed exclusively at the UK.

In some countries 91 is standard and 95 is super.

 

[CraigI]

Don't understand why anyone would spend all that money on a car with a high performance engine and then run it on cheap fuel and thus lose some of that performance.
Completely defeats the purpose of buying the car.

 

[The Challinor]

Don't understand why anyone would spend all that money on a car with a high performance engine and then run it on cheap fuel and lose some of that performance.
Completely defeats the purpose.

Let's spend £40,000 odd on a S3 and save a few quid on a tank of fuel...

Totally agree with you.

 

[jasso86]

Is a basic principle.. more octane= more horsepower

Another thing is salesman are not the best informed performance wise...

I don't see the big deal... =/

 

[Si_S3]

Looks like I started some debate here, but it does show how these things are open to miss interpretation

Don't understand why anyone would spend all that money on a car with a high performance engine and then run it on cheap fuel and thus lose some of that performance.
Completely defeats the purpose of buying the car.

PS - my original post was not an issue with having to pay for the good stuff, but of how miss-leading/miss informed the dealer was in my case. It will be Super going in from now on

 

[Palacemads3]

With my last s3 I only ever put in 95ron but with my new s3 I have decided to only put super unleaded in. I am noticing better fuel consumption already. I'm now on my 2nd tank and have got over 29mpg but that could also be due to the improved engine efficiency, I guess I'll never know.

As a point , what kind of super unleaded do people use? Is there a better one and is it better to stick with the same one rather than change around?

 

[The Challinor]

Tesco Momentum all the way

 

[Mdritchie]

You're going to need much better than 4% economy savings to make that pay.

Standard unleaded is 91 from what I remember, premium is 95.

Okay this makes a bit more sense now. What country are you based in? In the UK 95RON is classed as premium but it's generally the lowest grade if fuel you can buy, I've certainly never seen a lower grade of fuel anywhere I use. Hence why I'm basing my 4% on the difference in cost of premium to super.

I try to fill with Shell V-Power wherever possible just to give it as consistent burn properties as possible. That said I've got a week in the North-West highlands coming up soon and finding V-Power can be a tad tricky!

As a related point the owners manual advises against "octane-boosters" as they can contain heavy metals (4 star anyone?) hitch can damage the cats. Any experience on this?