Switching off the brake-lights....

[h5djr]

You may remember that, before I ordered my new 8V, I was concerned that when you stop with the Hold Assist switched on, the brake-lights stay on. When I was taught to drive many years ago I was always told this was bad manners as it leaves your bright brake-lights shining in the face of the driver behind.

To achieve this in 8P I needed to stop, to apply the handbrake and put the s-tronic in Park otherwise the engine would start if I took my foot of the brake pedal to switch off the brake-lights. To move away I had to put my foot on the brake pedal, move the lever from Park to Drive, release the handbrake and the press the accelerator pedal and then the lever back to the 'tiptronic' side which I use most of the time.

Today I stopped at a level crossing and I know with this particular crossing I'm going to be stopped for some time. So when I stopped my engine cut-out with the start/stop system but with the 8V and Hold Assist I now longer have to keep my foot on the brake (mine is s-tronic) but it does mean my brake lights stay on all the time I'm stopped. So I just clicked the parking brake and this took over holding the car, the engine remained stopped and my brake lights went out. The gearbox lever remained in the 'tiptronic' position.

When the barriers went up I just pressed the accelerator pedal and I was away. Very simple process and with no brake-lights staying on when I'm stopped.

 

[Itguy]

Interesting to note, will give this a go

 

[cuke2u]

Me too but it makes sense..

 

[cemerson]

It defeats the point of hold assist somewhat if you just use the handbrake every time though!

 

[Pulp84]

Surely it would not keep the brake lights on if was agaisnt law / Highway Code?

Just don't see the point of going to the hassle when the car is designed to keep the lights on. Common courtesy or not - no one goes out of my way to give me an easy time on the roads so don't see why I should be messing around with my controls to not blind someone I don't know for however many seconds it is.

 

[MA3RC]

^ Agreed, it may sound ignorant but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that the lights stay on. If it were driving around with fog lights on or the stupid aftermarket HID's then I'd see the point, but I'm happy coming to a complete stop and literally driving away with as little ease as possible.

Loads of people hold their car on the foot brake these days, even without any form of hold assist, it's common practice. I'm sure it doesn't bother them.

 

[Vertigo1]

Modern LED brake lights can be ridiculously bright, especially if you're right behind a car with them on at night. It's considerate to not have them lit longer than necessary really.

I'm actually stunned that the hold assist leaves the brake lights lit. Completely idiotic and without any valid reason whatsoever if you ask me.

 

[JohnM100]

You may remember that, before I ordered my new 8V, I was concerned that when you stop with the Hold Assist switched on, the brake-lights stay on. When I was taught to drive many years ago I was always told this was bad manners as it leaves your bright brake-lights shining in the face of the driver behind.

To achieve this in 8P I needed to stop, to apply the handbrake and put the s-tronic in Park otherwise the engine would start if I took my foot of the brake pedal to switch off the brake-lights. To move away I had to put my foot on the brake pedal, move the lever from Park to Drive, release the handbrake and the press the accelerator pedal and then the lever back to the 'tiptronic' side which I use most of the time.

Today I stopped at a level crossing and I know with this particular crossing I'm going to be stopped for some time. So when I stopped my engine cut-out with the start/stop system but with the 8V and Hold Assist I now longer have to keep my foot on the brake (mine is s-tronic) but it does mean my brake lights stay on all the time I'm stopped. So I just clicked the parking brake and this took over holding the car, the engine remained stopped and my brake lights went out. The gearbox lever remained in the 'tiptronic' position.

When the barriers went up I just pressed the accelerator pedal and I was away. Very simple process and with no brake-lights staying on when I'm stopped.

Dave,

Am a bit confused by your thread here……

You have another thread on this very topic, and I posted this tip in that thread a couple of days ago, and you replied to that post.

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3-s3-8v-chassis/209289-hold-assist-brake-lights-2.html#post2142112

Not quite sure what you are looking for this duplicate thread to achieve?

John

 

[Pulp84]

Modern LED brake lights can be ridiculously bright, especially if you're right behind a car with them on at night. It's considerate to not have them lit longer than necessary really.

I'm actually stunned that the hold assist leaves the brake lights lit. Completely idiotic and without any valid reason whatsoever if you ask me.

Next we will be saying to turn off LED or xenon headlamps as a car approaches as these modern lights are very bright and could dazzle the on coming driver......

Think car systems should be left to their own devices and yes we have discussed this topic before.

 

[SlightlyYapper]

Modern LED brake lights can be ridiculously bright, especially if you're right behind a car with them on at night. It's considerate to not have them lit longer than necessary really.

I'm actually stunned that the hold assist leaves the brake lights lit. Completely idiotic and without any valid reason whatsoever if you ask me.

It seems idiotic that the brake lights are illuminated while you're at a complete stop with your brakes engaged? You wouldn't want to alert other road users to the fact that you are stopped?

This whinge seems completely idiotic to me

 

[h5djr]

It seems idiotic that the brake lights are illuminated while you're at a complete stop with your brakes engaged? You wouldn't want to alert other road users to the fact that you are stopped?

This whinge seems completely idiotic to me

I agree that it's not a bad idea to leave the brake lights on if you are the last car in the queue, but as soon as a car pulls up behind me a apply the parking brake so that mine go out.

 

[h5djr]

^ Agreed, it may sound ignorant but it doesn't bother me in the slightest that the lights stay on. If it were driving around with fog lights on or the stupid aftermarket HID's then I'd see the point, but I'm happy coming to a complete stop and literally driving away with as little ease as possible.

Loads of people hold their car on the foot brake these days, even without any form of hold assist, it's common practice. I'm sure it doesn't bother them.

That's part of the problem with many drivers today. Lack of consideration for others on the road. Just because a lot of drivers are equally inconsiderate to other drivers does not make it right. It is often down to plain laziness. How much effort does it take to click a switch. I'm not talking about stopping for a few seconds but for up to five minutes in the particular case I'm referring to in my post. As you will see it does annoy some members of this forum and I'm sure there are a lot of other drivers who would prefer if the car in front did not have their brake-lights on the whole time they are stooped in a queue. It called common courtesy and consideration for other drivers.

 

[h5djr]

Dave,

Am a bit confused by your thread here……

You have another thread on this very topic, and I posted this tip in that thread a couple of days ago, and you replied to that post.

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/new-a3-s3-8v-chassis/209289-hold-assist-brake-lights-2.html#post2142112

Not quite sure what you are looking for this duplicate thread to achieve?

John

I did try to find the original thread but failed which is why I started a new one.

In the original thread I asked about the brake-lights staying on when using hold assist and was told by existing 8V owners that they did. I was a bit concerned about this as I would prefer that I could switch them off when I'm not the last car in the queue. The other day I found out how I could achieve it, but just clicking the Parking Brake switch so that it takes over from the hold assist with no need to engage Park on the s-tronic.

 

[Scott]

I agree that it's not a bad idea to leave the brake lights on if you are the last car in the queue, but as soon as a car pulls up behind me a apply the parking brake so that mine go out.

What if they then think you're pulling off and go into the back of you? I'm sure it's not unheard of.

 

[cuke2u]

Now you're being pedantic. With conventional handbrakes you are taught to apply the handbrake put the car in neutral and release the clutch, thus no brake lights and we've been doing this for years. All we are asking is the same behaviour, those who are happy to be sitting stationary with their brake lights on should, perhaps refrain from making comments.

 

[h5djr]

Now you're being pedantic. With conventional handbrakes you are taught to apply the handbrake put the car in neutral and release the clutch, thus no brake lights and we've been doing this for years. All we are asking is the same behaviour, those who are happy to be sitting stationary with their brake lights on should, perhaps refrain from making comments.

I agree completely. Surely with a modern parking brake system, even with an s-tronic all you need to do is click the parking brake switch. Out of interest the Highway Code say:

114

You MUST NOT

use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders
use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves to avoid dazzling other road users (see Rule 226).

In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.
Law RVLR reg 27

 

[cuke2u]

That's how I understood it Dave...

 

[mjcourtney]

When i took my test 12 years ago I too was taught to release the foot brake after coming to a stop, as per that highway code extract.

I always do this, but I see this behaviour less and less now from other motorists. And modern led brake lights can indeed be quite dazzling at night.

 

[Scott]

I agree completely. Surely with a modern parking brake system, even with an s-tronic all you need to do is click the parking brake switch. Out of interest the Highway Code say:

114

You MUST NOT

use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders
use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves to avoid dazzling other road users (see Rule 226).

In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.
Law RVLR reg 27

There's a difference between must and should.

 

[Scott]

Now you're being pedantic. With conventional handbrakes you are taught to apply the handbrake put the car in neutral and release the clutch, thus no brake lights and we've been doing this for years. All we are asking is the same behaviour, those who are happy to be sitting stationary with their brake lights on should, perhaps refrain from making comments.

I don't think it's pedantic to think that effectively turning off your brake lights when someone is stationary behind you, would result in them thinking you're about to move off. This happens quite often at roundabouts, especially as the people behind are usually looking to their right and not in front, and as I said, I'm sure it's not unheard of at traffic lights either.

If I should refrain from making comments because I have a different opinion, on a public forum of all places! then perhaps I'll make a thread or even two about keeping my brake lights on, and by your own logic, you should refrain from making comments, correct?

 

[h5djr]

I don't think it's pedantic to think that effectively turning off your brake lights when someone is stationary behind you, would result in them thinking you're about to move off. This happens quite often at roundabouts, especially as the people behind are usually looking to their right and not in front, and as I said, I'm sure it's not unheard of at traffic lights either.

If I should refrain from making comments because I have a different opinion, on a public forum of all places! then perhaps I'll make a thread or even two about keeping my brake lights on, and by your own logic, you should refrain from making comments, correct?

If drivers relay on whether the car in front has it's brake lights on or off to decide when to start moving then I don't think they should be driving in the first place. Surely that decision is made by whether the car in front is moving or not and nothing to do with the brake lights.

As for using the parking brake so that hold assist does not keep the brake lights on, it is not something I would do at a roundabout or junction because I'm only going to be stopped from a short time. But stopped at a level crossing or traffic lights is a different matter. This is where I think I 'should' turn my brake light off by using my parking brake rather have my brake lights shining in the face of the driver stopped behind me especially as it's so simple to do with one click of a switch.

 

[cuke2u]

Scott, if you wish to start your own thread about keeping the brake lights on that is up to you. However, this thread was started by Dave wishing to share information about how to turn them off as Hold Assist keeps them on not, if this is wrong or right. Thus owners such as myself who think the brake light being on all of the time is a particularly bad idea on Audi's part can use this information to good use.

 

[cuke2u]

If drivers relay on whether the car in front has it's brake lights on or off to decide when to start moving then I don't think they should be driving in the first place. Surely that decision is made by whether the car in front is moving or not and nothing to do with the brake lights.

Yup, if someone drove into the back of me because they 'assumed' I was pulling away then that is driving without care or attention.

 

[Pulp84]

I agree completely. Surely with a modern parking brake system, even with an s-tronic all you need to do is click the parking brake switch. Out of interest the Highway Code say:

114

You MUST NOT

use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders
use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced. You MUST switch them off when visibility improves to avoid dazzling other road users (see Rule 226).

In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.
Law RVLR reg 27

So how did the VAG and BMW (because they do this as well) products get type approval to be sold in the UK? From what your post reads the car is breaking the law?

Are you going to call up VW / Audi UK to point this out to them? Maybe they might see the error in their product design (in line with the Highway Code) and recall the car and make a software adjustment - no fiddling then with buttons and switches. Let us know how you get on.

 

[MA3RC]

If the brake lights are such an issue then why are you all buying the hold assist? Everyone seems to be just flicking to the normal handbrake as to not irritate the car behind. which defeats the principal of the convenience system.. I also bet if you got out of your car and asked the car behind if it was an issue, they wouldn't have given it a second thought. We don't all stare directly into the brake lights of the car in front!

If the system was deemed inappropriate to the Highway Code / other road users then there's no way Audi would have clearance from the highways agency to carry on producing them!

 

[h5djr]

So how did the VAG and BMW (because they do this as well) products get type approval to be sold in the UK? From what your post reads the car is breaking the law?

Are you going to call up VW / Audi UK to point this out to them? Maybe they might see the error in their product design (in line with the Highway Code) and recall the car and make a software adjustment - no fiddling then with buttons and switches. Let us know how you get on.

As far as I see it, it is not ILLEGAL to leave your brake-lights on. The Highway Code says that as a driver you 'should' turn your brake-lights off to minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.

It is quite easy for any driver to do this, by clicking the parking brake switch. The Highway Code also says that we should stick to speed limits but Audi do not produce a car with a speed limiter set at 70 mph. The Highway Code is a code for drivers that sets out best practice for want of a better description and has nothing whatsoever to do with the manufacturers Type Approval.

The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations is what the manufacturer has to comply with for brake-lights to get Type Approval and that deals with things like the wattage of the bulbs and the positioning rather than how drivers use what is provided. It is down to the individual driver to drive within the recommendations of the Highway Code.

I will therefore not be contacting Audi about brake-lights as I'm sure what they provide complies with the law and Audi have no control how a driver uses the product they provide.

 

[cuke2u]

If the brake lights are such an issue then why are you all buying the hold assist? Everyone seems to be just flicking to the normal handbrake as to not irritate the car behind. which defeats the principal of the convenience system.. I also bet if you got out of your car and asked the car behind if it was an issue, they wouldn't have given it a second thought. We don't all stare directly into the brake lights of the car in front!

If the system was deemed inappropriate to the Highway Code / other road users then there's no way Audi would have clearance from the highways agency to carry on producing them!

Perhaps because we didn't know that the brake lights stayed on until after we purchased the car?

 

[Pulp84]

Have some experience of type approval and it does actually cover braking application systems of which I would assume this feature would fall under?

You earlier post has confused me as you put what I must not do in bold. I think the RVLR reference under your posting from the Highway Code actually does mean it is law.

 

[h5djr]

If the brake lights are such an issue then why are you all buying the hold assist? Everyone seems to be just flicking to the normal handbrake as to not irritate the car behind. which defeats the principal of the convenience system.. I also bet if you got out of your car and asked the car behind if it was an issue, they wouldn't have given it a second thought. We don't all stare directly into the brake lights of the car in front!

If the system was deemed inappropriate to the Highway Code / other road users then there's no way Audi would have clearance from the highways agency to carry on producing them!

Hold Assist is a very useful system in the correct situation. If you stop at a roundabout or junction waiting to pull out and particularly with s-tronic there is no tendency for the car to creep forward because it is being held still by hold assist. This is perfectly what hold assist was designed to do with s-tronic or manual. But to sit at a level crossing or traffic lights for a longer time is it too much to ask, as the Highway Code does, that a driver clicks the parking brake switch to turn off the bright brake-lights to minimise the the glare to other road users behind until the traffic moves forward.

No manufacturer needs clearance from The Highways Agency to carry on producing any particular car. The HA is responsibly for the roads. It is EU Type Approval that is required for a car to be used on the roads in the UK and needless to say the A3 has that.

 

[h5djr]

Have some experience of type approval and it does actually cover braking application systems of which I would assume this feature would fall under?

You earlier post has confused me as you put what I must not do in bold. I think the RVLR reference under your posting from the Highway Code actually does mean it is law.

Yes but the actually part about not keeping you brake lights on does say you 'should' rather than your MUST or MUST NOT. The Highway Code is a code of best practice which drivers should comply with for the the sack of themselves and other road users.

 

[h5djr]

Perhaps because we didn't know that the brake lights stayed on until after we purchased the car?

Yes because when I said to my dealer about it before I ordered my new 8V he was quite sure that Hold Assist did not keep the brake lights on. We event went out to his car so that he could demonstrate it to me. The problem was that when he demonstrated it he had the ignition on, but he also had the door open and did not have the seat belt on so the conditions for hold assist to work were not being met.

 

[Pulp84]

Any section with Law RVLR underneath it means it falls under the road vehicles lighting regulation and therefore is enforceable. Would seem however that many things under the RVLR is not enforced (fog lights on with no fog seems to be one that is enforced consistently I understand). So now I have cleared that up I'm going to continue to dazzle drivers behind by keeping the brake lights on. It's for my own comfort and convenience I guess and that's why I have specced it.

The highway code has many do nots that fall under law such as not over taking on solid lines or chevrons for example. So it's not just best practice.

 

[h5djr]

Any section with Law RVLR underneath it means it falls under the road vehicles lighting regulation and therefore is enforceable. Would seem however that many things under the RVLR is not enforced (fog lights on with no fog seems to be one that is enforced consistently I understand). So now I have cleared that up I'm going to continue to dazzle drivers behind by keeping the brake lights on. It's for my own comfort and convenience I guess and that's why I have specced it.

The highway code has many do nots that fall under law such as not over taking on solid lines or chevrons for example. So it's not just best practice.

Basically you are saying it is too much trouble to click the parking brake switch when your know your are going to be stopped for a some time for the benefit of the driver behind you. One small click for a man! nothing more.

And there was me thinking that it was only BMWs that were driven by self-centred drivers who could not give a damn about anyone else.

 

[Pulp84]

Basically you are saying it is too much trouble to click the parking brake switch when your know your are going to be stopped for a some time for the benefit of the driver behind you. One small click for a man! nothing more.

Yes I am!

 

[cuke2u]

God what did we do when we only had mechanical handbrakes no auto lights or wipers. Oh I know, we actually used our brains..

 

[h5djr]

Yes I am!

Well I must be from 'the old school' where consideration for others was regarded as normal rather than the current 'Me Me Me' attitude.

 

[Pulp84]

Well I must be from 'the old school' where consideration for others was regarded as normal rather than the current 'Me Me Me' attitude.

I would call it more "old fashioned".

 

[h5djr]

I would call it more "old fashioned".

Call it what you like, but if I'm "old fashioned" and you're not, I know which I would rather be.

 

[DescendDescend]

Where the Highway Code uses MUST it means it is a legal requirement. Where SHOULD is used it means best practice.

 

[h5djr]

Where the Highway Code uses MUST it means it is a legal requirement. Where SHOULD is used it means best practice.

That's how I have always understood it.