Another Test Drive

[scotty76]

There are the ones who are driving the requirement for a EU wide 'MOT' type test which will include a way a checking for engine management units that have been modified since manufacturer.

Shame really. Doesn't that sound like the beginnings of "if you don't get it from dealer it's illegal"? To put that in perspective my battery has had it. Dealer wants £116 + £72 fitting for a new one. My local Audi indie will fit the genuine battery for £98. Why is the labour £72?! To pay for my "free" coffee.

 

[Daz Auto]

Yes but no quattro so handling will be pants.

Yes, if you are only doing roundabout speeds, Quattro would be fantastic. However...

You do know that the A3 uses a Haldex Quattro system? You do know Quattro adds 100kg to a car? You do know that Quattro reduces the size of the boot a lot? You do know that above a certain speed it operates as FWD? You do know that in winter conditions winter tyres will perform better? (I can provide 3 videos that prove the last point!)

Above a certain speed when traction is not an issue, all Quattro does is effect the power-to-weight ratio. So, above a certain speed, A3 Quattro would have fractionally slower acceleration and fractionally longer braking distances, than a similar FWD Audi.

Again, I'm not against Quattro, I just recognise it has pros AND cons.

 

[cemerson]

At least in this country at the moment, the MOT wouldn't be able to cover that, as they aren't allowed to take anything apart to do the MOT, they can only inspect what they can see (and use - lights etc). No doubt that'll change soon though.

 

[h5djr]

Shame really. Doesn't that sound like the beginnings of "if you don't get it from dealer it's illegal"? To put that in perspective my battery has had it. Dealer wants £116 + £72 fitting for a new one. My local Audi indie will fit the genuine battery for £98. Why is the labour £72?! To pay for my "free" coffee.

Not really. In Germany it is the item that is approved for each particular car. There is nothing about who has to fit it. All sorts of batteries for example can be approved and not just those supplied by Audi. Any manufacturer can apply to have any item approved for any car. It just stops sub-standard and dangerous items to fitted to cars that can be going very fast on public roads (autobahns)

 

[PilotAudi]

No choice on our new S 3 . Surely you aren't suggesting winter tyres are a substitute for quattro ?

Have had 4 a3 quattro and 8 others 4/5/6 and 7 and am fully aware of different systems.

 

[Daz Auto]

My 1.6 TDI is my A1 took a good many miles to seem to offer its best power and MPG, have these test cars had enough miles on the clock to show the full potential? Might just be something to throw in the mix when comparing against your old car??

I'm looking forward to my wife getting her A3 1.6 SE S-tronic. The Golf 1.6 SE DSG we test drove was quite nippy at legal speeds. Think it is going to be the perfect car for her.

 

[h5djr]

At least in this country at the moment, the MOT wouldn't be able to cover that, as they aren't allowed to take anything apart to do the MOT, they can only inspect what they can see (and use - lights etc). No doubt that'll change soon though.

Yes I think you are right. Things will have to change if a new EU wide 'MOT' becomes law. It will probably mean a lot less back-street MOT stations and many more major centres with the necessary equipment, know-how and authorisation to access the manufacturers computer system to check on items fitted when the car was built in the same way as dealers.

I understand this is how the current system works in Germany.

 

[h5djr]

I'm looking forward to my wife getting her A3 1.6 SE S-tronic. The Golf 1.6 SE DSG we test drove was quite nippy at legal speeds. Think it is going to be the perfect car for her.

My wife has an A1 3-door SE with the 1.6TDI engine and love it to bits.

 

[Daz Auto]

Surely you aren't suggesting winter tyres are a substitute for quattro ?

Winter tyres are better than Quattro in winter conditions. To save any arguments - please show me ONE video that suggests otherwise?

 

[PilotAudi]

Not saying winter tyres are bad. I prefer winter tyres and quattro !!

 

[Daz Auto]

My wife has an A1 3-door SE with the 1.6TDI engine and love it to bits.

My wife wanted an automatic. Don't think it is available in the A1 diesel yet.

 

[Daz Auto]

Not saying winter tyres are bad. I prefer winter tyres and quattro !!

In winter conditions, winter tyres are the best/safest option on ANY car. Winter tyres have better braking distances below 7C.

This is not just my opinion. It is well documented.

 

[CraigI]

In winter conditions, winter tyres are the best/safest option on ANY car. Winter tyres have better braking distances below 7C.

This is not just my opinion. It is well documented.

Couple or points, what about winter tyres and AWD?
FWD still better?

You also have or have just ordered a front wheel drive Audi haven't you?

No way would I ever have a non Quattro Audi, it's like ordering an iPod without iTunes capability.

 

[h5djr]

You do know that Quattro reduces the size of the boot a lot? .

Yes it puts the luggage compartment floor in the same position as all the demonstrators I have driven rather than the slightly lower position that non-quattros can use. Much better for me for day-to-day use and more than adequate if necessary to accommodate my mobility scooter. When we go on holiday we will put our two suitcases upright on the floor behind the front seats as we have to in my current 'non-quattro' Sportback. And there will still be room in the boot for some boxes of bottles of Mosel wine.

I brought a 184 stronic quattro home when I had one for the day and tried putting everything in. No problems.

 

[Daz Auto]

Couple or points, what about winter tyres and AWD?
FWD still better?

You also have or have just ordered a front wheel drive Audi haven't you?

Like I said, please provide videos showing Quattro is better than winter tyres?

We have just ordered a FWD A3 for my wife. Like I said before, if I though for 1 second she would be any safer in the winter in a Quattro then I would buy her one. I will be getting her 4 winter tyres. However, I did want to buy her a Humvee after some idiot drove out in front of her 2 years ago. She didn't want one

 

[Daz Auto]

I brought a 184 stronic quattro home when I had one for the day and tried putting everything in. No problems.

I'll have to get a test drive in one and see if there is any way all my tools and equipment will fit.

I did use to manage with a Ford Puma. Still can't figure how my 6 foot brother ........edit delete .......with a girl in the back of that car.

Though I seem to have more work stuff now.

 

[cemerson]

I'll have to get a test drive in one and see if there is any way all my tools and equipment will fit.

I did use to manage with a Ford Puma. Still can't figure how my 6 foot brother ........edit delete ........in the back of that car.

Though I seem to have more work stuff now.

I'm 6'3ish, and have managed to get in the back of a Puma before... wasn't comfortable though!

 

[CraigI]

Like I said, please provide videos showing Quattro is better than winter tyres?

We have just ordered a FWD A3 for my wife. Like I said before, if I though for 1 second she would be any safer in the winter in a Quattro then I would buy her one. I will be getting her 4 winter tyres. However, I did want to buy her a Humvee after some idiot drove out in front of her 2 years ago. She didn't want one

My question was is FWD with winter tyres better than Quattro with winter tyres? The answer is no.
Thought you might be a FWD buyer...........not sure why, just had an inkling.

I've never used winter tyres and we get some bad winters up here. Never had a problem to date (touch wood) in 19 winters of driving.
Driving style is the key to a safe winter, but Quattro is better than FWD if the tyres are the same on both.

 

[Daz Auto]

My question was is FWD with winter tyres better than Quattro with winter tyres? The answer is no.
Thought you might be a FWD buyer...........not sure why, just had an inkling.

I've never used winter tyres and we get some bad winters up here. Never had a problem to date (touch wood) in 19 winters of driving.
Driving style is the key to a safe winter, but Quattro is better than FWD if the tyres are the same on both.

Yes and no.

Show me the videos please?

 

[h5djr]

Yes and no.

Show me the videos please?

Winter tyres: 4x4 grip test video | Auto Express

 

[cemerson]

I don't use winter tyres either on my FWD cars, never have, I just take it easy. Far too many people think quattro is going to make them invincible in winter... there's nothing funnier than seeing a 4x4 in a ditch because its owner had no clue and no options though!

 

[snakehips]

I don't use winter tyres either on my FWD cars, never have, I just take it easy. Far too many people think quattro is going to make them invincible in winter... there's nothing funnier than seeing a 4x4 in a ditch because its owner had no clue and no options though!

I use winter tyres not for snow (if it's snowing I stay home and watch TV) but for cold wet conditions where one wouldn't necessarily think to take it easy, as you would in snow, but still give loads more grip and better braking when needed.

 

[Daz Auto]

My question was is FWD with winter tyres better than Quattro with winter tyres? The answer is no.

Are you sure? Quattro's are 7-8% heavier than the same car without Quattro. Now Audi are trying to reduce the weight of their cars to improve performance and handling. The A3 for example has been reduce by around 80kg. Quattro adds around 100kg. Do you think that extra weight will effect the handling of a car in the winter?

Yes, Quattro has better traction in winter, but handling and braking... ? Simple physics... heavier object will require more energy, more friction or a longer distance to stop.

 

[CraigI]

Yes and no.

Show me the videos please?

I can't be bothered looking for video's. I get easily bored of winter tyre discussions, so will close with the below.

I've owned AWD and FWD and AWD is better in winter on non winter tyres.
Never needed winter tyres even though in North East Scotland.
Perhaps a winter driving course might do you as well as these amazing winter tyres.

AWD is also better in wet and greasy conditions.

FWD is only on a par in the dry.

Trust me, from driving many of both, this is the truth.

I like FWD cars by the way, prefer the way a Renaultsport Megane drives to my S3, but definitely not in wintry weather conditions.
I wouldn't buy an Audi with FWD as there are other manufacturers out there that set up their FWD systems far better than Audi do.

Audi is all about Quattro, it is better, just because you didn't get it on your car (for whatever reason) and have seen video's won't ever change that.

I'm out.

 

[Daz Auto]

I can't be bothered looking for video's. I get easily bored of winter tyre discussions, so will close with the below.

I've owned AWD and FWD and AWD is better in winter on non winter tyres.
Never needed winter tyres even though in North East Scotland.
Perhaps a winter driving course might do you as well as these amazing winter tyres.

AWD is also better in wet and greasy conditions.

FWD is only on a par in the dry.

Trust me, from driving many of both, this is the truth.

I like FWD cars by the way, prefer the way a Renaultsport Megane drives to my S3, but definitely not in wintry weather conditions.
I wouldn't buy an Audi with FWD as there are other manufacturers out there that do them far better than Audi can.

Audi is all about Quattro, it is better, just because you didn't get it on your car (for whatever reason) and have seen video's won't ever change that.

I'm out.

... all in YOUR opinion. Please provide ANY videos or documented evidence to support your opinions?

 

[CraigI]

Are you sure? Quattro's are 7-8% heavier than the same car without Quattro. Now Audi are trying to reduce the weight of their cars to improve performance and handling. The A3 for example has been reduce by around 80kg. Quattro adds around 100kg. Do you think that extra weight will effect the handling of a car in the winter?

Yes, Quattro has better traction in winter, but handling and braking... ? Simple physics... heavier object will require more energy, more friction or a longer distance to stop.

Not if you know how to drive properly.
If it worries you so much, perhaps when driving in the snow do so without any passengers or luggage, possibly even only on an empty stomach......

Definitely out now. Bored.

 

[CraigI]

... all in YOUR opinion. Please provide ANY videos or documented evidence to support your opinions?

 

[Daz Auto]

Winter tyres: 4x4 grip test video | Auto Express

Excellent video.

There are 2 more.

 

[snakehips]

Are we confusing "winter" with "snow"? Winter tyres are for cold weather in general and not just for snow. There are many discussions in the forum on what is the best tyre for the A3 so obviously it is very important to people to know which are the best tyres they can fit on their car. But for nearly half the year the best tyres possible are winter tyres. In cold/wet/snowy conditions they ARE the best tyres one could possibly fit. So those who choose not to fit them are accepting that for a large chunk of the year they will be using inferior tyres, and that is of course their choice.

 

[Daz Auto]

Are we confusing "winter" with "snow"?

European friction tyres or Nordic friction tyres. No confusion here! I always do my research - it goes with my job.

In cold/wet/snowy conditions they ARE the best tyres one could possibly fit So those who choose not to fit them are accepting that for a large chunk of the year they will be using inferior tyres, and that is of course their choice.

I currently have 4 winter tyres fitted to my car. My wife has 4 winter tyres fitted to her car. They are not 4WD cars. I have found NOTHING that suggests we are safer with 4WD for winter driving.

 

[snakehips]

European friction tyres or Nordic friction tyres. No confusion here! I always do my research - it goes with my job.

I simply meant that the winter tyre discussion seemed to be focusing only on performance in snow and not the wider benefits, that's all. Not sure what you are saying here but I know we are in agreement.

 

[Daz Auto]

Are we confusing "winter" with "snow"? Winter tyres are for cold weather in general and not just for snow. There are many discussions in the forum on what is the best tyre for the A3 so obviously it is very important to people to know which are the best tyres they can fit on their car. But for nearly half the year the best tyres possible are winter tyres. In cold/wet/snowy conditions they ARE the best tyres one could possibly fit. So those who choose not to fit them are accepting that for a large chunk of the year they will be using inferior tyres, and that is of course their choice.

Completely agree with this. Good to see a Quattro driver that understands this. Many have already formed an opinion and refuse to accept - despite the evidence - that there may be a better option.

Have chatted online with many drivers, who tell lots of stories about how Quattro is the best thing for winter driving - in THEIR experience/opinion . Now, to stop any arguments, I ask for some documented evidence? There are several videos and many articles that say winter tyres are a cheaper and better option than 4WD for winter driving.

I am not against Quattro. Of course the best option is winter tyres AND Quattro. But winter tyres first.

Here is my favourite video demonstration -

 

[PilotAudi]

I agree Daz 'Of course the best option is winter tyres AND Quattro.'

Not so sure on 'But winter tyres first'. A lot will surely depend on the temperature and conditions. Your pictures all seem to imply snow etc.

I'll stick with quattro (and winter tyres when required thanks). quattro is not just about driving in adverse weather situations. it provides far better handling characteristics, little or no wheel spinning and gets rid of what I consider a terrifying FWD Torque steer from powerful FWD cars. I remember the MG Montego Turbo and more recently Saab Aero FWD. The former required no steering wheel intervention to overtake, just plant the throttle and the torque steer did the rest.. terrifying. Cars have moved on I realise but I still prefer quattro.

We do however have a family Golf 1.6 Tdi 105 Match BM Tech.. which is a cracking car. Once wound up it goes well and 60mpg. That sort of vehicle doesn't warrant AWD/quattro IMHO, however an S3 does as I believe does a 170/184 bhp (+loads of torque A3).

 

[cuke2u]

Hi, one more thing about remaps, seeing as it seems to have generated some 'myths' about how they are performed. A proper remap is virtually undetectable unless you understand coding or have access to a rolling road, as it involves altering the actual specific mapping on the vehicle, thus all of the identifiable markings to the vehicle will still be there. Now we understand that the VW group have a system that detects any interference with the ECU, however I sure that can be overcome quite easily if the person writing the code goes about it correctly. Some have stated that a ecu records the number of times it has been accessed but again I have never seen any evidence that this has been seen and used by any dealership. But again it is something that probably could be bypassed. We have also yet to see any incidences where Audi have actually seem the alerts and taken action upon it. I would also think that the worst that would have is that they welch on the warranty, which is why then only a remap with such a warranty should be obtained.
However I believe that a 'piggy back' tuning box circumnavigates some of the issues anyway.

One of my remapped cars, a 2008 Mk4 Mondeo, went through several MOT's performed by the main dealer, it was serviced by them, I even sold it back to them, and they never once suspected it had a remap at all. I did tell the salesperson eventually once he'd sold the car and after he was selling me my current vehicle, a Focus, however he was not bothered at all. I even told the Audi salesperson that my p/x focus had a remap and I'd taken it off, he wasn't interested either.
Things might change of course, but until they do it isn't worth speculating upon..

 

[PilotAudi]

The worry for me would be doing something and hiding it from dealer / insurer could invalidate warranty and cover !

 

[Daz Auto]

That sort of vehicle doesn't warrant AWD/quattro IMHO, however an S3 does as I believe does a 170/184 bhp (+loads of torque A3).

No argument from me that the S3 definitely needs Quattro. I understand the issues that sort of power causes.

Yes I would benefit from Quattro traction at lower speeds with the 170ps engine. Though my new summer tyres have helped a lot with low speed traction. Above 30-40mph - when traction is not an issue for 170ps levels of power/torque - Quattro is just dead weight.

Though the TORSEN Sport Quattro system with torque vectoring looks like it would be amazing. Pity it is not available on the A3

 

[cuke2u]

The worry for me would be doing something and hiding it from dealer / insurer could invalidate warranty and cover !

You should declare it to your insurance company of course. As to informing the dealership is entirely up to you. I usually remap a car when it is near its last year of the three year warranty and make sure the supplier of the remap has their own one year warranty.

 

[Daz Auto]

Back on topic. Sorry if you have seen this already.

The power from the 150 engine was noticeable down on my current 170 in some situations...

Though I think the Golf is slightly heavier than an A3 170ps

 

[PilotAudi]

Not sure that is conclusive... for a start look at the difference in outside temperature 7.5 degrees vs 20.5 degrees