Help needed after wheel alignment

[Grale1]

Hi guys, I had a new subframe and rack fitted on Saturday, on Sunday I took the car to get the alignment done and only place was kwik fit that was open and had a hunter system, anyhow after I got the print out I thought it looked a little strange, I was wondering if anyone can help point me in the right direction as to where to look for problems.

I have a plan in place to replace my coilovers on the front for Quattro ones and fit s3 arms to sort the cambers out, so it's just the rear I have a problem with, everything looks out of place

 

[Tooks]

Well basically, all they've done is correct the front toe.

Caster is not adjustable, and I don't think front camber is adjustable either unless you've got slotted suspension arms like the S3 ones you plan to fit.

At the rear, basically you can't adjust anything as far as I know on an A3, so I'd be looking at replacing any bushes and mounts etc.

The rear toe and thrust angle anomalies won't be doing much for the handling...

 

[Grale1]

Thanks for the reply, I was thinking of trying new bushes in the rear beam, when you look at the car from behind the passenger wheel sits in more at the top. The thrust angle is the one I'm puzzled by as I don't know how to correct it, and yes it's not pleasant to drive lol

 

[JimS3]

There is a little adjustment in the front ball joints / arms on the 2wd cars, but only about 0.3 degrees. Not enough to sort your issues.
Looks like your front subframe may be over to one side. If you have a look under the car at the two big rear subframe bolts it will give you an idea if it is off to one side. If you slacken all 4 subframe bolts on a ramp you can usually shunt the subframe across enough to even the camber.

Your rear toe ideally wants to be about 1.2 on each side. You can rotate the rear beam up to 2 degrees if you slacken it off, which should even it up.

Have a ring round independents with hunter machines and ask if there prepared to take on a job like this, I know some won't.

 

[Grale1]

Cheers Jim, it was the rear I was more concerned about tbh, it's the thrust angle and the camber on the passenger rear wheel and the toe, I have of last weekend had a steering rack from a cupra r fitted and a subframe also as the original had a small bend on the left, I am needing my gearbox changed so I will take it to a garage to sort the alignment out after, thank you for your input from what your saying it can be adjusted abit, just need to find a garage willing to do it lol

 

[Prawn]

1.2 degrees rear toe in on each side would be far too much!

The print out above shows teh factory specs of 0.3 each side being the max toe in within spec.

Car pulls left horribly I assume and feels like it wanders around?

It's steering from the rear. Far too much toe in there. Replace the beam.

 

[Grale1]

Yes prawn pulls left and does feel like it wanders, but I was told that the pull when I accelerate is my diff wearing out, maybe my beam is bent then lol

 

[JimS3]

1.2 degrees rear toe in on each side would be far too much!

The print out above shows teh factory specs of 0.3 each side being the max toe in within spec.

Car pulls left horribly I assume and feels like it wanders around?

It's steering from the rear. Far too much toe in there. Replace the beam.

Sorry should have been clearer, I meant 1.2mm not degrees. The machine I use defaults to toe measurements in mm.
1.2mm is approximately 0.15 degrees.

Alternative to replacing the beam is to use the eibach toe shims behind the stub axle.

 

[Grale1]

Ok cheers guys, so can it be corrected then, if I went down the road of getting the shims, what do you think I would need to get as from what I've seen they come from, -1.0 to 0.5 degree?

 

[Prawn]

Sorry should have been clearer, I meant 1.2mm not degrees. The machine I use defaults to toe measurements in mm.
1.2mm is approximately 0.15 degrees.

Alternative to replacing the beam is to use the eibach toe shims behind the stub axle.

Bang on Jim, 0.15 degrees is right in the middle of factory spec range.

Grale: it looks like either you've very unlucky and it's gone unnoticed for 15 years previously, or your rear beam had had a whack at some point and it's bent.

You could try shimming it back to correct, but that'd be a bodge at best, given that your camber on the rear axle is very uneven also.

 

[Grale1]

Hi prawn tbh when I first got the car with the issue of going left that was the first thing that was changed, so knowing my luck I've had a bent beam swapped for another lol

 

[JimS3]

Hi prawn tbh when I first got the car with the issue of going left that was the first thing that was changed, so knowing my luck I've had a bent beam swapped for another lol

With the state of the roads I would be surprised if you are able to find a used beam within spec, all those pot hole impacts add up over time. Beam on my golf is out of spec and I have had it since new, never been in a shunt.

 

[Grale1]

Yeah the roads are pretty rubbish, I'm a little lost on what to do about it as it does drive like crap, but saying that it is a lot better since that alignment on Sunday, maybe I should find a garage that would give it a go at slackening and moving the rear beam and subframe and see from there

 

[JimS3]

We'll you could try and rotate the rear beam to even toe, but the best you will get is 0.9 degrees even toe on each side. We'll out of spec, but better than having thrust angle at the back.

I don't think with this beam you will get it back in spec even with shims, but you could improve it.

Think if it was my car I would possibly leave the beam where it is as the right toe only fractionally out and then stick a shim under the left stub axle to get it closer to spec.

Toe at the back will wear tyres far quicker than camber and have a bigger effect on handling.

 

[Grale1]

What size shim would you recommend to use then to try and improve it?

 

[JimS3]

The shims are available in 0.125, 0.25 and 0.5 degrees. You can use up to two shims per side, but I have only ever used one per side before. With two you could get close to spec.

Something to bear in mind if you do go down the shim route is the shims rotating the stub axle and wheel also rotates the brake disc, however the calliper and carrier doesn't move as it's bolted directly to the beam. This means you also have to shim the rear calliper carrier too. Eibach sell the brake spacers too. I have never used them, I usually turn my own shims or if only a little correction is needed use a stainless washer.

Heres a picture of the toe shims and the brake carrier shims:

 

[Grale1]

Could those work to help it get aligned better

 

[andy1571]

i dont know if you got it sorted m8 but im having a similar issue, having fitted h&r coil overs and full powerflex bushes and after 2 trips to the alignment place they still cant sort out the front camber drivers side, everything else is bang on. Im thinking the same as mentioned in previous posts that the sub-frame is out of align.
Also adjustable tie bars off dave for the rear end (replacing the bottom bars) sorted the rear camber out

correct me if im wrong anyone but if you have the funds id do your coilovers and possibly bushes, rear tie bars, make sure the subframe is aligned then take it for alignment, also instruct the alignment place to loosen the subframe bolts and tap it into place if need be.

i found this thread helpfull The Audi TT Forum :: View topic - Wheel alignment settings for a 225 quattro (inc. lowered)

and the setup im going for
fast road/track


front camber -1.5 deg
front toe 0.02 deg (toe out)
front toatal toe 0.04 deg
rear camber -1.0 deg
rear toe 0.00 deg (parralel)
rear total toe 0.00 deg

heres where i am so far

 

[Grale1]

Andy I have a fwd A3 and my pulling is down to a knackered diff, just waiting to get a new box fitted, along with a few other bits then it'll be back to alignment centre and see

 

[andy1571]

Realised you had the fwd after my post Lol my bad