Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

[burns3]

Glad the results came out good and like Jojo sed with your lack of weight (and overall setup in general really) you have it must feel like a real beast compared to a heavy s3.

Guess something had too try and spoil a good day with the cv boot but bet the drive home made you feel better once it was fixed

Great work all round.

 

[Westy]

Great work guys and a cracking result.

I guess the real question isn't about how to get more power from Prawns car but how do you prevent gearboxes and CVs destroying themselves? This is a problem has has haunted the car ever since the power started getting serious. I've lost count on the number of boxes now.

Anyway, still fabulous news on the TFSI setup.

 

[A3-Lee]

Fair play mate great result on the power this car just gets better and better

 

[ReDBull]

The is a second hand LCR 6 gear box with wavtrac diff and cryo frozen gears that will be for sale soon.
Good results mate!

 

[ScottD3]

I guess the real question isn't about how to get more power from Prawns car but how do you prevent gearboxes and CVs destroying themselves? This is a problem has has haunted the car ever since the power started getting serious. I've lost count on the number of boxes now.

The only answer is......quattro?!

Congrats lads. :thumbsup:

 

[bigal 1]

My comment about not being as planned or hoped was referring to not being able to road test due to broken drive shaft and all of the aggro associated with it.

I think the power is great and exactly the ballpark figures Nick quoted before going to R-Tech. Powerful, all-day long performance is what we have without stressing anything. Not including drive-shafts. Just GREAT.

 

[16Klappe]

Great work guys and a cracking result.

I guess the real question isn't about how to get more power from Prawns car but how do you prevent gearboxes and CVs destroying themselves? This is a problem has has haunted the car ever since the power started getting serious. I've lost count on the number of boxes now.

Anyway, still fabulous news on the TFSI setup.

This car likes cv joints because it has way too much traction and load going through the shafts and joints, the grip is unreal. Nicks car was plagued with joint problems as soon as he started putting stupid tires on it. He did a couple of joints at the ring from spinning the inside wheel up, but even as a road car daily driven it always had very large, high quality tires.

When the wheels do spin (less than on my car, a lot less!) there is very little load on the joints and shafts, so Nicks problem is basically that the car is TOO good.

I was talking about this last night with him and I agree with his thoughts that the joints are a cheap, easy sacrificial part which will break long before the box does. Keeping the box safe.

Only viable option is URST shafts and an SQS dog box off Bill, it 2k+ for the box.

Let the joints break I say.

 

[bigal 1]

Great work guys and a cracking result.

I guess the real question isn't about how to get more power from Prawns car but how do you prevent gearboxes and CVs destroying themselves? This is a problem has has haunted the car ever since the power started getting serious. I've lost count on the number of boxes now.

I think this is the eight box, if not the ninth. The best box so far, a proper German built one from 1998/9 not from Argentina like so many. This box has been re-build by Ben at Parsons Performance with some new components so it looks promising.:thumbsup:

 

[Jason.s]

Aye tyres are the killer. I`ve seen countless Civics for instance with fk all power and torque snapping shafts on launch at a drag strip when using 888s for instance.

 

[badger5]

change the inner cv's top the later ones.. tri-lobe dont seem to be cutting it.
mine are ok... only broke my inner cages when my shaft plunge length was wrong and they bottomed out when I added more camber.

the box will be considered a consumable however.

 

[s3dave]

Nicks problem is basically that the car is TOO good.

 

[wild willy]

Excellent results, where are the graphs though and did you manage to improve spool.

 

[Westy]

I don't think the issue is that the car is "too" good! Obviously the extra traction is just highlighting components that were originally designed for a 150bhp car and not a 350bhp car! Do we see every F1 car doing its drive shafts at the start of each race? No. Because they have components that are designed to take the stresses and strains put on them. Upgrading the joints and box to something more robust will be the only way to prevent further breakages.

 

[ScottD3]

Excellent results, where are the graphs though and did you manage to improve spool.

+1

 

[ScottD3]

Prawn or anyone on else, I'm trying to work something out and its for pure educational nothing else, despite what people may think.

Your last turbo was a K04 Hybrid with 354BHP and your new turbo is standard TFSI unit with 372bhp. A difference of 20BHP (Give or take).

The TFSI read like it was a hassle to fit and expensive when compared to the K04 hybrid and for a gain of just 20BHP it don't seem worth it.

Am I missing something with this build?
Is there more to it this build than just 20 extra BHP and to say you're running TSFI turbo?

What is the cost of TFSI set up compared to that of the K04 hybrid?

I think that makes sense and answers my curiosity. :thumbsup:

 

[Jason.s]

I reckon you'd need 500bhp in an S3 to keep up, that's how quick it felt!

Well jo...Prawn this at inters with say 340bhp? did a 13.6/7 1/4m with low weight and we didnt know the 0-60. But the year before with only around 270bhp fred did a 13.2 and 4.8 to 60 with more weight.

So in theory a slower, heavier S3 is already faster and with Prawns added power its not going to get near that 13.2 figure still..

and of course up to 60/70mph is all that really needs to be discussed on the roads within the law.

 

[jojo]

The only answer is......quattro?!

No, just NO! It's a road legal track car ***!! Having had a passenger ride in it yesterday, it all makes sense what Nick is trying to do with this car. It does not need quattro, it's fine as it is! He does look after his gearbox with the constant blips of the throttle on down shifts, and it puts the power down quite well on the move.

Personal opinion in the cv joints issue. It's a small price to pay for the performance. It's not the cleanest job to do, but I don't feel it warrants some updated part, but there was a couple of hours of sadness yesterday just trying to source a replacement!

End result was still the same though, machos smiles on the way home!

 

[Prawn]

Your last turbo was a K04 Hybrid with 354BHP and your new turbo is standard TFSI unit with 372bhp. A difference of 20BHP (Give or take).

The TFSI read like it was a hassle to fit and expensive when compared to the K04 hybrid and for a gain of just 20BHP it don't seem worth it.

Am I missing something with this build?
Is there more to it this build than just 20 extra BHP and to say you're running TSFI turbo?

What is the cost of TFSI set up compared to that of the K04 hybrid?

I think that makes sense and answers my curiosity. :thumbsup:

The target audience here Scott is not for people that already have a ko4 hybrid, thats the key point to remember.

My old hybrid made 353bhp, although in a more reliable long term state is was 335-340ish, this, as a repeatable figure now, is 370bhp, so it's roughly 30bhp up on the old hybrid.

MOST ko4 hybrids will never see the figures mine did, most end up around 20bhp short, coming in at 320-330bhp tops typically.

The old hybrids also all suffered from surge, whereby the boost had to be held back to around 17-18psi before 4500rpm or and then unleashed to get the most from it. The TFSI unit now is making 20psi at 3kRPM, during testing Niki has it at 25psi at 3200rpm and still no surge point at all, so the area under the curve is considerably greater than before.

Cost wise, I expect the completed kit will be the same, if not possibly even cheaper than doing a ko4 hybrid to a similar level of quality.

As for gearboxes, you can all feck off whilst i sit and cry into my beer

 

[Prawn]

Well jo...Prawn this at inters with say 340bhp? did a 13.6/7 1/4m with low weight and we didnt know the 0-60. But the year before with only around 270bhp fred did a 13.2 and 4.8 to 60 with more weight.

That's all about launching though Jason, which we all know is gay

Once rolling, at anything over 20mph, the S3 wouldn't stand even the smallest chance in hell

 

[jojo]

Prawn or anyone on else, I'm trying to work something out and its for pure educational nothing else, despite what people may think.

Your last turbo was a K04 Hybrid with 354BHP and your new turbo is standard TFSI unit with 372bhp. A difference of 20BHP (Give or take).

The TFSI read like it was a hassle to fit and expensive when compared to the K04 hybrid and for a gain of just 20BHP it don't seem worth it.

Am I missing something with this build?
Is there more to it this build than just 20 extra BHP and to say you're running TSFI turbo?

What is the cost of TFSI set up compared to that of the K04 hybrid?

I think that makes sense and answers my curiosity. :thumbsup:

Only extra 20bhp yes Scott, but 350 was from a K04 hybrid on its limit, generating extra heat. TFSI K04 was not stressed to produce 370, it didn't require a fancy relentless mani, it's standard turbo remember, not a hybrid version, and it comfortably made 370!

Well jo...Prawn this at inters with say 340bhp? did a 13.6/7 1/4m with low weight and we didnt know the 0-60. But the year before with only around 270bhp fred did a 13.2 and 4.8 to 60 with more weight.

So in theory a slower, heavier S3 is already faster and with Prawns added power its not going to get near that 13.2 figure still..

and of course up to 60/70mph is all that really needs to be discussed on the roads within the law.

It was never meant to be a 1/4 miles car Jase, so the times are irrelevant, but on the move, it's a monster!

 

[Prawn]

No, just NO! It's a road legal track car ***!! Having had a passenger ride in it yesterday, it all makes sense what Nick is trying to do with this car. It does not need quattro, it's fine as it is! He does look after his gearbox with the constant blips of the throttle on down shifts, and it puts the power down quite well on the move.

^^^I like this.

Jo has now been in it, and Jo now gets it. Those that havn't been in it, I don't expect you to get it, you're all far too in love with yoru fake 4wd systems

Anyway, it's not going 4wd, and I don't want 4wd. I like it as is, so can we please not carry on discussing 4wd or comparing it to a quattro, because we all know how that usually ends up....

 

[jojo]

Man, I need to type quicker! The extra power Nick has makes his fingers type fast as well!

 

[ScottD3]

Only extra 20bhp yes Scott, but 350 was from a K04 hybrid on its limit, generating extra heat. TFSI K04 was not stressed to produce 370, it didn't require a fancy relentless mani, it's standard turbo remember, not a hybrid version, and it comfortably made 370!

There was issues with the exhaust, adapter plate and other items?
Its not a bolt on job where the K04 is?

 

[Andy P]

Prawn or anyone on else, I'm trying to work something out and its for pure educational nothing else, despite what people may think.

Your last turbo was a K04 Hybrid with 354BHP and your new turbo is standard TFSI unit with 372bhp. A difference of 20BHP (Give or take).

The TFSI read like it was a hassle to fit and expensive when compared to the K04 hybrid and for a gain of just 20BHP it don't seem worth it.

Am I missing something with this build?
Is there more to it this build than just 20 extra BHP and to say you're running TSFI turbo?

What is the cost of TFSI set up compared to that of the K04 hybrid?

I think that makes sense and answers my curiosity. :thumbsup:

Scott, very good question. I'm unable to answer your questions about cost because I've honestly got no idea what the cost differences are between the 2 setups.

Yes there was additional work involved to get the TFSI setup fitted due to the "flipped" turbo.

But the +20hp wasn't the reason for the swap. Nick has stated (maybe not here but in person) that if it makes no additional power it doesn't matter. The reason for the chane was for reliability sakes. The previous KO4 setup utilises a "cheap" stainless manifold that will most likely crack, even despite the extra work done to it prior to fitting. You might remember the fault on the first manifold that he used? Secondly the KO4 is a hybrid setup. The mismatch of compressor to turbine produces more heat and at lower rpms surged.

The new setup uses and off the shelf cast manifold (albeit with the adaptor) and an off the shelf turbo - designed to be reliable for the mass market. It runs cooler, doesn't surge and won't run into potential manifold cracking issues. Remember, this is predominately a track car - the last thing you want to do is to rock up to Spa having paid your £250 track session, £100 ferry crossing, £300 hotel, £100 fuel to get there and a week of holiday entitlement for the manifold to shear off at the turbo.

Having spoken to Nick, all round drive-ability at part throttle has improved, EGT's are lower and is much smoother to build boost. The +20hp is just a free bonus.

Andy

Edit: clearly took too much time to answer this, as has already been answered 3 times over....

 

[Jason.s]

By the sounds of it Jo you`ll be selling up and buying an A3 to convert then... fcn traitor!

I`d love to go in it but you`re after money! Cheeky ****! haha

 

[ScottD3]

The new setup uses and off the shelf cast manifold (albeit with the adaptor) and an off the shelf turbo - designed to be reliable for the mass market. It runs cooler, doesn't surge and won't run into potential manifold cracking issues. Remember, this is predominately a track car - the last thing you want to do is to rock up to Spa having paid your £250 track session, £100 ferry crossing, £300 hotel, £100 fuel to get there and a week of holiday entitlement for the manifold to shear off at the turbo.
y

Or a CV joint?


That makes sense.
I always thought it was just a BHP game between the K04 and TFSI but what you, jo and others have said it all makes sense.

But I guess the main question to others is, is it worth the extra expense and hassle?

 

[Andy P]

^^^I like this.

Jo has now been in it, and Jo now gets it. Those that havn't been in it, I don't expect you to get it, you're all far too in love with yoru fake 4wd systems

Anyway, it's not going 4wd, and I don't want 4wd. I like it as is, so can we please not carry on discussing 4wd or comparing it to a quattro, because we all know how that usually ends up....

I've got 3 Quattro cars (real ones, you know, without that computer controlled clutch mush crap you guys have)

2 of these Quattro's are now RWD...

 

[Andy P]

Or a VC?

CV?

Easier to get hold of anywhere in the world compared to a manifold..

Unless you're in china I guess..

 

[Jason.s]

I've got 3 Quattro cars (real ones, you know, without that computer controlled clutch mush crap you guys have)

2 of these Quattro's are now RWD...

Not our fault a car we like has a sh!t system like that!

 

[jojo]

By the sounds of it Jo you`ll be selling up and buying an A3 to convert then... fcn traitor!

I`d love to go in it but you`re after money! Cheeky ****! haha

Highly unlikely Jase, I'm on the quattro side of the fence mate! But you have to appreciate this machine as a full on stripped out track machine that's road legal! Prawn didn't built it to compete with S3s, that was never his intention?

 

[Jason.s]

No ones saying it was...We all just like a wind up lol.

I appreciate it, when he was moaning at inters that it was a slow time i was the one telling him otherwise. I loved it when my A4 was mapped and it would overpower the front wheel grip even when rolling it would spin up low down in 2nd before i changed the tyres. Its amusing and stupid but at the same time knowing you have a car that can do it is a nice feeling. Well was for me anyway as i used to watch videos back in the honda days of turbo civics going crazy when spooled up from sheer power overloading the front wheels.

 

[superkarl]

All this debate and no graphs still.

Tfsi overlaid with old should prove just how much better this is.
Also prawn, what power level will actually be used on a track day? Do you have switchable maps?

 

[vroomtshh]

I'd imagine that this is a cost effective solution to someone who is starting with a standard car.
If you already have a stage 2 car with mani, wmi etc, then a straight bolt on hybrid is probably the most cost effective option, albeit it with slightly less power.

Id also think that a hybrid tfsi turbo would be a nice way to make 400bhp rather than a gt28 or the like. Although I'm not 100% convinced that it would be hugely cheaper than a gt28 etc

 

[Prawn]

I'll upload some pics when I get a chance chaps

I don't actually have an overlay of the old hybrid map vs this one, I'll ask Niki if that's something that's possible to do.

on the road, it's better for sure, without question. it feels crazy fast now, more punchy low down, and more pull at the top too, win win really, and all with less heat than the hybrid.

On track Karl it'll probably be run on actuator at 1 bar most of the time, this was giving 318-322bhp yesterday when niki was setting up the base line fuelling.

 

[Andy P]

It's quite amusing to think that originally this had "only" 280 on actuator to keep it tractable on track days..

 

[superkarl]

Ok cool.

I just wana see the kind of area difference this thimgs gained. its impressive how much power they make whilst still spooling so fast

 

[Neru]

impressive prawn, I think I may have to consider one of these in the future I wish there was someone who could do this in Australia. Any plans to upgrade the gearbox?

 

[jamiebennett81]

Well this has caused a stir...

Comparing the power of prawns K04 hybrid Vs the TFSI turbo, is misleading, if you are going to just purely base the progress of this car on what BHP outputs.

The K04 was near on maxxed out, leading to higher EGT's and more strain on the turbo etc.

The TFSI is still well within it's power limits, and although it has only increased "20bhp" as some would put it, I am sure EGT's and turbo wear will be a lot less.

I am certain, given time, this package with the parts laid out is a good viable option. It already produces more power than a GT28RS, and with a splash of hybrid on the TFSI you are looking at GT2871 territory, BUT with far less lag, and still retaining the same level of power.

This is a far improved development over the days of bigger laggy turbo's, and Nick has pushed yet another benchmark to show that there are other options, all be it in their infancy stages, that you can get "big turbo" power with a fast spooling turbo, even more so an OEM turbo without the silly Garrett price tags should your GTXXX turbo go pop.

I think what Nick has done is correct, and if people are simply basing the achievements on what BHP this turbo is putting out, then you are missing the point.

 

[Prawn]

So, now that I've finally got a minute after a mad day at work, I can take the time to write about our day

It was long!

I set off just after 6am, and went to pick Jardo up.

Last time I took Jardo somewhere, he turned up looking like a Polish car wash attendant rocking this dodgy double denim number:

This time, I planned ahead, and specically asked him not to look like a **** for the trip, so he put on his best Christmas jumper and chinos instead....



I can cope, it was a nice morning, even if we do get some funny looks cruising along with the Big Gay Wing:



We arrived at Rtech just before 9 and were greeted by Marcus moving cars about, Ben arrived a few minutes later, and we got the car onto the ramp:




Mr G arrived and we removed the front bumper, ready to roll onto the dyno. I also removed the scuttle panel and wipers to allow Niki to connect the ECU emulator:

The straps were tightened, and the fans wheeled into place:







The very first run, on actuator pressure, as arrived:



298bhp / 280lbft, a good start.

A few more runs, and it seemed to settle around 295-296 on actuator. Niki then ran it on N75 power, to see what it was doing on boost:



342bhp and 334lbft on the old map.

Next, Niki set about tweaking the fuelling. It was clear on the actuator pressure run that the richness top end was robbing it of lots of power.

A few tweaks later saw 321bhp on actuator pressure, with the sme 280lbft as before:



Going well so far then!

Fast forward a few more runs, and Niki started to add some boost:



370bhp / 350lbft ish

It made some flames:



And JoJo turned up in the worlds tidiest early S3:

Jo is a hero, Jo bought us lunch, it was a pretty epic feast! Thanks so much for that!

Vex182 also popped over in his lunch break, great to meet you Dan Sorry we didn't get any pics of your presence

Playing around with boost levels, this one shows the spool nicely, that's 1.5 bar reached at 3300rpm. On the road it reaches this even sooner, by 3000rpm



A few other runs, trying different things each run:



Then it made more flames:



Niki did one run asking it for LOTS of boost, resulting in 1.8 bar peak and 1.7 bar still at 7000rpm, and it did it too, result was 381bhp and 371lbft, but for the gain of 10bhp / 15lbft, we were having to push another 0.3 bar, so it just wasn't worth it.

Final result after all the fiddling:



378bhp 352lbft. It's worth noting that that run was done in inertia mode after all of the mapping and tweaking being done against the brake. Niki said he always does a run in interia at the end of a session as that's how it's done on most rolling road days.

Typical power repeatably run after run seemed to be anywhere from 368-374bhp, as you can see from the graph this is dyno run 70 from the day! so it had a fair old bit of testing!

With that done, we unstrapped the car from the dyno, loaded the map onto my own ECU and fitted it all back in, and went for a test drive....

 

[Prawn]

This is where both the story, and my picture taking go a bit south! when it all got a bit stressfull I forgot to take any more pics

Niki and I strapped in, me in the passenger seat, and Niki driving.
We drove 100 yards gently to the end of the road, and merged out into the traffic.

once straight, Niki put his foot down, just a little, and BANG, almost instantly, we lost drive, with a loud bang and a horrible noise we were stopped again, almost sooner than we'd started :'(

A quick dignosis saw that the outputs on the box were still spinning, and the wheels wern't, so something along the driveshaft had let go.

We pushed it back into the workshop, and Jardo jumped in and raised the clutch in gear whilst Niki and I watched from underneath.

Inner CV, totally destroyed. ******.

Jardo went to the motor factors whilst I removed the old dead shaft, Simon had turned up by this point and gave me a hand to save time. Cheers mate

Jardo arrived back with a new joint, but it was the wrong one. ********!

So we all piled into Simons 400bhp Leon, and went back to the motor factors, to either get a new joint, or a refund for Jardo.

Once there, the bloke was adamant he had the right one, and took about 30 minutes of our time showing us every driveshaft he stocked, obviously none of them were correct :'(

by this time, it was gone 1630, and with traffic building there was no way we'd make it to our original plan GSF before closing time.

A quick call from Simon to a mate Sam in Leicester, and Sam is on his way to GSF, just a few miles from where he lives.

Sadly, the GSF joint is also of the wrong type. ARGH! this isn't going well. Sam managed to find us a brand new shaft complete from TPS, but they wanted £350 for it! I'd sooner walk!

Back to R-tech empty handed, and Niki had an idea We could take a driveshaft off his own Golf!

So, with Niki being incredibly generous and disabling his own car so we could get home, we set to work removing the shaft from Nikis mk4 gti, working on the floor with almost no working room down the side of the unit, a bit of teamwork from Simon and I had it off in about 15 minutes, and all that was left was to bolt it back onto mine, and finally we could road test it!