Audi all sorted now I have a faulty vw :-(

[adrenalin84]

hi there guys just recently bought a VW GOlf Gt Tdi 57' and already inherited some faults


Been getting strange intermittent problems


Symptoms :


Car drives fine for about 30mins-1hr, then the red power steering light flashes intermittently
if the car is driven for a bit longer the esp light comes on and goes off, longer again the power steering light flashes red/yellow/red/yellow and steering assistance is reduced, i begin to get 3 beeps followed by abs then all other lights on the dash flicker
As this is happening the car struggles to start and the alarm sounds as soon as you try locking the car.
dealership scan returned 50+ faults all of no communication - intermittent and low voltage intermittent across many modules
- all codes can be cleared and disappear until the above symptoms start again.


I have already replaced the battery and checked 14v across the battery when engine is running.
anyone had anything similar that could point me in the right direction?


Rarely happens whilst driving, usually occurs when the engine is restarted during journey, and will not appear atall on shorter journeys.

 

[ex911driver]

How did it run after battery was replaced?

 

[@udi A3]

Which fault codes come back again after driving?

 

[adrenalin84]

Car ran exactly the same after a new battery, fault codes are across all modules as intermittent voltage, weirdly the car drives fine during cool temperatures with no lights but when the temp is higher outside warning lights come on one by one progressively.

 

[adrenalin84]

Until I have a full Christmas tree lol

 

[Audi Doodah]

Check tension on aux belt and condition of all pulleys etc. Could be slipping due to expansion when getting hot. It's common between the power issues (alternator) and reduced steering assistance (PAS pump).

 

[adrenalin84]

Check tension on aux belt and condition of all pulleys etc. Could be slipping due to expansion when getting hot. It's common between the power issues (alternator) and reduced steering assistance (PAS pump).

Would that explain this thought
Vw golf major electrical problem - YouTube

 

[adrenalin84]

Please excuse the music lol

 

[Audi Doodah]

Alternator provides electricity - driven by aux belt. PAS pump provides steering assistance - driven by aux belt. That's the theory of my suggestion. So, you tell me...does the aux belt check out ok? If so, what about:

Alternator wiring loose/damaged?
Power supply lines to ecu loose/damaged?
Water in ecu?
Dry solder joints in ecu expanding when warm?

Any of these suggestions could explain the problems you're having or none of them. Just throwing ideas out there, based on the symptoms you describe, to possibly help you trace the issue.

:thumbsup:

 

[adrenalin84]

Any suggestions are truly welcome I will investigate tomorrow, can't even lock the car as the alarm sounds constantly when it is at its worst, cools down all is okay. Only thing that might contradict the belt theory is that it is doing it with just the ognition on and no engine started

 

[Audi Doodah]

Engine was running in your video

Have you checked voltages when it's having it's eppy?

 

[adrenalin84]

sorry we have been getting bad weather here....should have done it on saturday......doh!
00-Steering Angle Sensor -- Status: OK 0000
01-Engine -- Status: Malfunction 1010
03-ABS Brakes -- Status: Sporadic communication error 1000
08-Auto HVAC -- Status: Malfunction 1010
09-Cent. Elect. -- Status: Malfunction 1010
15-Airbags -- Status: OK 0000
16-Steering wheel -- Status: Malfunction 1010
17-Instruments -- Status: Malfunction 0010
19-CAN Gateway -- Status: Malfunction 0010
25-Immobilizer -- Status: OK 0000
42-Door Elect, Driver -- Status: Malfunction 1010
44-Steering Assist -- Status: Malfunction 1010
46-Central Conv. -- Status: Malfunction 1010
52-Door Elect, Pass. -- Status: Malfunction 1010
56-Radio -- Status: Malfunction 0010

Address 01: Engine Labels: 03G-906-016-BKD.lbl
Part No SW: 03G 906 021 PP HW: 03G 906 021 AN
Component: R4 2,0L EDC 000SG 1264
Revision: --H07--- Serial number: VWX7Z0G63N205F
Coding: 0000072
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 7CFD85543FF078E

1 Fault Found:
005704 - Powertrain Data Bus
P1648 - 000 - Failure - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Mileage: 72968 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 21:34:11

Freeze Frame:
RPM: 0 /min
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Load: 0.0 %
Voltage: 12.31 V
Bin. Bits: 00000100
Bin. Bits: 00000100
(no units): 0.0

Readiness: 0 0 0 0 1


Address 03: ABS Brakes Labels: 1K0-907-379-MK60-F.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 907 379 AC HW: 1K0 907 379 AC
Component: ESP FRONT MK60 0101
Revision: 00H11001
Coding: 0023170
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 73EFAE6812AE376

No fault code found.


Address 08: Auto HVAC Labels: 1K0-820-047.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 820 047 FT HW: 1K0 820 047 FT
Component: Climatic PQ35 141 0909
Revision: 00141027 Serial number: 00000000000000
Shop #: WSC 00000 000 00000
VCID: 7BFF86483AFE7F6

3 Faults Found:
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent


Address 09: Cent. Elect. Labels: 3C0-937-049-30-H.lbl
Part No SW: 3C0 937 049 AJ HW: 3C0 937 049 AJ
Component: Bordnetz-SG H54 2202
Revision: 00H54000 Serial number: 00000007268624
Coding: E5890F2700041500471400001400000000087F075C00010000 0000000000
Shop #: WSC 01287 785 00200
VCID: 71E3A46068B2056

Subsystem 1 - Part No: 1K2 955 119 E Labels: 1KX-955-119.CLB
Component: Wischer 250607 021 0501
Coding: 00038805
Shop #: WSC 01287

Subsystem 2 - Part No: 1K0 955 559 R Labels: 1K0-955-559-AF.CLB
Component: RegenLichtSens 010 1010
Coding: 00208933
Shop #: WSC 01287

9 Faults Found:
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
014 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00101110
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 69412 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.60 V
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF

02071 - Local Databus
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 1048575 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.30 V
OFF
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF

00532 - Supply Voltage B+
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 27
Mileage: 1048575 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 8.95 V
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF

01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 1048575 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.35 V
OFF
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF

00466 - Control Module for Steering Column Electronics (J527)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 18
Reset counter: 22
Mileage: 72111 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.40 V
OFF
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF

01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 2
Mileage: 72559 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.35 V
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF
OFF

00446 - Function Limitation due to Under-Voltage
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 4
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 27
Mileage: 72807 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 6.80 V
OFF
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF

00153 - Windshield Wiper Motor; Driver Side (V216)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 1048575 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
OFF
Voltage: 12.30 V
OFF
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF

01598 - Drive Battery Voltage
000 - - - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 3
Reset counter: 27
Mileage: 72653 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2005.09.13
Time: 31:63:63

Freeze Frame:
ON
Voltage: 13.95 V
ON
ON
OFF
OFF
OFF



Address 15: Airbags Labels: 1K0-909-605.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 909 605 T HW: 1K0 909 605 T
Component: 38 AIRBAG VW8 020 2300
Revision: 05020000 Serial number: 0038PD1B3UNV
Coding: 0013112
Shop #: WSC 01269 785 00200
VCID: 3D7B4850646AB16

No fault code found.

Address 16: Steering wheel Labels: 1K0-953-549-MY8.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 953 549 BC HW: 1K0 953 549 BC
Component: Lenksäulenmodul 036 0070
Coding: 0000012
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 74EDAD7417A030E

 

[adrenalin84]

1 Fault Found:
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1K0-920-xxx-17.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 920 964 B HW: 1K0 920 964 B
Component: KOMBIINSTRUMENT VDD 1212
Revision: V0002000 Serial number: VWX7Z0G63N205F
Coding: 0003403
Shop #: WSC 00657 210 88489
VCID: 2C5D75148F1028E

11 Faults Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 69488 km
Time Indication: 0

01316 - ABS Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 69488 km
Time Indication: 0

01321 - Control Module for Airbags (J234)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 27
Mileage: 69488 km
Time Indication: 0

01309 - Power Steering Control Module (J500)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 69488 km
Time Indication: 0

01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 71374 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:04:55

00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 14
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 72170 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:07:04

00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 72788 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 16:37:38

00446 - Function Limitation due to Under-Voltage
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 4
Reset counter: 27
Mileage: 72653 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 20:17:35

00532 - Supply Voltage B+
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 40
Mileage: 72653 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 20:18:33

01316 - ABS Control Module
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 30
Mileage: 69488 km
Time Indication: 0

01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
008 - Implausible Signal - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 17
Reset counter: 26
Mileage: 1048575 km
Time Indication: 0


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 1K0-907-530.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 907 530 K HW: 1K0 907 951
Component: J533__Gateway H04 0021
Revision: H04 02 Serial number: 210607F1000674
Coding: 3D0F034007000001
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 2F676218BE06536

11 Faults Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 31
Reset counter: 24
Mileage: 70381 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 18:28:36

01316 - ABS Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 104
Reset counter: 29
Mileage: 69519 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:57:07

01309 - Power Steering Control Module (J500)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 225
Reset counter: 29
Mileage: 69499 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 14:26:26

01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100100
Fault Priority: 1
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 21
Mileage: 72653 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 15:04:12

00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 32
Reset counter: 24
Mileage: 71379 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:48:02
01330 - Central Control Module for Central Convenience (J393)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 3
Reset counter: 24
Mileage: 72596 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 18:11:58

01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 69516 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 16:24:36

01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 248
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 71374 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 17:10:27

00466 - Control Module for Steering Column Electronics (J527)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 69510 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 15:30:33

01320 - Control Module for Climatronic (J255)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00110100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 254
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 70629 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 13:42:09

00532 - Supply Voltage B+
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 00100010
Fault Priority: 3
Fault Frequency: 2
Reset counter: 25
Mileage: 72653 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2000.00.00
Time: 19:35:29


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 25: Immobilizer Labels: 1K0-920-xxx-25.clb
Part No SW: 1K0 920 964 B HW: 1K0 920 964 B
Component: IMMO VDD 1212
Revision: V0002000 Serial number: VWX7Z0G63N205F
Shop #: WSC 00773 210 88422
VCID: 2C5D75148F1028E

No fault code found.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 42: Door Elect, Driver Labels: 1K0-959-701-MIN3.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 959 701 M HW: 1K0 959 701 M
Component: Tuer-SG 006 120B
Coding: 0000564
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 387559444B4894E

9 Faults Found:
01811 - Supply Voltage for Door Controller; Drivers Side (J386)
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01332 - Door Control Module; Passenger Side (J387)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00466 - Control Module for Steering Column Electronics (J527)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01321 - Control Module for Airbags (J234)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 44: Steering Assist Labels: 1Kx-909-14x-44.clb
Part No: 1K2 909 144 M
Component: EPS_ZFLS Kl.069 H08 1901
Shop #: WSC 00000 028 00001
VCID: 3669577C415C62E

4 Faults Found:
01312 - Powertrain Data Bus
014 - Defective - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Mileage: 69920 km
Temperature: 21.0°C
Voltage: 14.40 V
Voltage: 14.20 V

00625 - Vehicle Speed Signal
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Mileage: 72410 km
Temperature: 43.0°C
Voltage: 12.10 V
Voltage: 11.90 V

01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Mileage: 72670 km
Temperature: 7.0°C
Voltage: 11.40 V
Voltage: 11.20 V

01314 - Engine Control Module
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
Freeze Frame:
Mileage: 72940 km
Temperature: 39.0°C
Voltage: 12.00 V
Voltage: 11.80 V


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 46: Central Conv. Labels: 1K0-959-433-MIN.clb
Part No: 1K0 959 433 AJ
Component: KSG 0401
Coding: 01C802087F2D8405485AC69010CC
Shop #: WSC 00773 210 88422
VCID: 78F599440BC854E

Part No: 1K0 951 605 D
Component: LIN BACKUP HORN H07 9001

Component: NGS No Answer

Component: IRUE No Answer

7 Faults Found:
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication
00830 - Convertible Top Control Module (J256)
004 - No Signal/Communication
01517 - Control Module for Trailer/Towing Sensor (J345)
004 - No Signal/Communication
01135 - Interior Monitoring Sensors
004 - No Signal/Communication
00323 - Vehicle Inclination Sensor (G384)
004 - No Signal/Communication
00668 - Supply Voltage Terminal 30
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 52: Door Elect, Pass. Labels: 1K0-959-702-MIN3.lbl
Part No SW: 1K0 959 702 M HW: 1K0 959 702 M
Component: Tuer-SG 006 120B
Coding: 0000564
Shop #: WSC 01279 785 00200
VCID: 39735C4070428D6

9 Faults Found:
01812 - Supply Voltage for Door Controller; Pass. Side (J387)
002 - Lower Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
014 - Defective - Intermittent
01336 - Data Bus for Comfort System
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01331 - Door Control Module; Driver Side (J386)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00466 - Control Module for Steering Column Electronics (J527)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01317 - Control Module in Instrument Cluster (J285)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01321 - Control Module for Airbags (J234)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 56: Radio Labels: 1K0-035-1xx-56.lbl
Part No: 1K0 035 186 R
Component: Radio BVX 020 0032
Coding: 0040401
Shop #: WSC 00718 210 84015
VCID: 356B50705C5A696

5 Faults Found:
01305 - Databus for Infotainment
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00457 - Control Module for Network (J519)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
00856 - Radio Antenna
011 - Open Circuit
00849 - S-contact at Ignition/Starter Switch (D)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent
01299 - Diagnostic Interface for Data Bus (J533)
004 - No Signal/Communication - Intermittent

 

[Audi Doodah]

As nearly every fault is a databus issue it still points to supply voltage, ecu and associated wiring.

Good luck!

 

[adrenalin84]

starting to think i should just send it to auction and hope its a cold day XD

 

[@udi A3]

Have you asked Rosstech for advice assuming its a genuine cable? There may be one or two modules throwing errors everywhere else. For instance an abs ecu fault I have read could error elsewhere.thats the longest list ive ever seen though, suggest talking to an auto electrician!

 

[bearthebruce]

Have you asked Rosstech for advice assuming its a genuine cable? There may be one or two modules throwing errors everywhere else. For instance an abs ecu fault I have read could error elsewhere.thats the longest list ive ever seen though, suggest talking to an auto electrician!

It's not genuine... it is a clone.

 

[@udi A3]

It's not genuine... it is a clone.

How can you tell a clone from the logs?! Hmm maybe that wont get answered on here. A pm would be nice

 

[bearthebruce]

How can you tell a clone from the logs?! Hmm maybe that wont get answered on here. A pm would be nice

You are correct. The question will not be answered.. not in the forum nor by PM. But, suffice it to say, there are means by which we know.