VAG 6-speed 02M/02Q Warning!

[trigmk2]

Ok, so this is my last resort, posting my story everywhere in the hope it doesn't happen to other people.

I own a '55 plate Seat Leon Cupra R, it has now covered 81,000 miles. When I purchased it there were ~78,000 miles on the clock and there was no noise to be concerned about. This was January 2013.

After a few weeks I noticed there was a rattle on the gearbox when the clutch was let out, down to the Clutch release bearing. I booked it into the garage and had a 3 week wait due to their being busy. By the time it went in there was a constant rattle whenever any throttle was applied and the gears weren't engaging as smoothly as before. Note: This car is not driven hard, just my plod to work where I manage 38-40mpg over 11 miles.

Ten minutes after I took it in there was a call to say that it was not just the CRB, he had spoken to his g/b specialist and it was a known fault in the top shaft. Agreeing to have it sent off for a intermediate rebuild at £400 I thought that was the end. This is a known fault and VAG made an adjustment to the box in '07.

Today I spoke to the gearbox specialists. He said "This is the worse condition VAG gearbox I have ever seen"(sic). I am now awaiting a £900 complete rebuild of the gearbox as "there is only one gear identified that could be re-used"(sic). The lateral play in the shaft has caused all the teeth to damage one another to the point they are pitted and it probably wasn't far off shattering a tooth. They are essentially getting a complete other gearbox and reconditioning that as mine is scrap!

I called SEAT head office customer services and they said as the car was not purchased from SEAT, it was out of warranty and they weren't repairing it, there was NOTHING they would be willing to do. If I took it in after for investigation it would be at my cost EVEN if they found it to be a manufacturing fault.

I have instructed the gearbox specialist to return the old g/b to me along with all the parts. I will be taking pictures and posting these, I then plan to take the g/b up to SEAT head office in Milton Keynes and tell them I am returning their seemingly sub-standard parts.

I love VAGs, I rate them VERY highly, however this experience and the fact a gearbox has literally eaten itself in no more than 4000 miles has changed my mind. I am digusted they wont even look into it! As some may notice, I also own an '89 mk2 Golf GTI and the gearbox in that has nothing more than a slight stick in second after 24 years and ~140,000 miles!

BEWARE ANYONE BUYING A VAG WITH A 6-SPEED BOX!

 

[superkarl]

are you for real???

I literally cannot believe you came on here to post that, and no doubt you are doing it on other forums, where i imagine 90% of people are thinking 'eh?'

First of all it has miles on it, and at 6 years old, quite alot of miles at that. But more to the point, i bet you a lot of money the oil in that gearbox has never been changed in its life.

And, having lasted the miles it did, do you reeeaaallly think the parts are sub standard??? This is a gearbox that is fitted to literally millions of cars. Yes failures happen, theres been quite a few documented on this forum alone. There are 1 in a thousand/million faults and errors with every single car out there, regardless of age, regardless of mileage.
Do you buy a car, and expect it to never ever go wrong in any way, regardless of what it is? Because if you do you really need to wake up to the reality of car ownership. If you aren't familiar with cars, they are highly technical mechanical feats of engineering that are mass produced as fast as possible by robots.

lets also consider that your LCR isnt standard and is putting out more power and torque than any part on the car is designed to deal with, yeh, nuff said


No doubt you are expecting lots of sympathetic replies such as 'oh no thats so sorry to hear! your 7 year old gearbox with 80k on it has broken, that really is AWFUL, and you arent the original owner and its out of warranty and the STILL wont replace it for you, good lord! Poor you. I am like you, i thought cars lasted literally forever with no faults at all. This must be a conspiracy against yourself for this to happen. My thoughts are with you'

sorry

 

[trigmk2]

are you for real???

I literally cannot believe you came on here to post that, and no doubt you are doing it on other forums, where i imagine 90% of people are thinking 'eh?'

First of all it has miles on it, and at 6 years old, quite alot of miles at that. But more to the point, i bet you a lot of money the oil in that gearbox has never been changed in its life.

lets also consider that your LCR isnt standard and is putting out more power and torque than any part on the car is designed to deal with, yeh, nuff said

Ok, first off, no need to talk down to me like you are the all-knowing voice of reason, it is unnecessary!

Maybe half the point of my post is to demonstate that this is a possibility that could happen to some-one else and it is a warning.
Where have I put that I am directly blaming VAG!?
I stated they were unwilling to offer assistance, to investigate the cause of what has happened to one of their products. at no point have I said they should accept responsibility or pay for a new gear-box.

I have owned 8 cars and am WELL aware of the reality that brings. All of my cars have been around the 80-140k mark and 5-24 years old. I have never experienced anything like this. My 1989 Golf's g/b oil wasn't changed until a year into my ownership and it STILL WORKS FINE and that was driven in a completely different way to the LCR.

And familiar with cars? I have an engineering degree and am MORE than familiar with the in's and out's of combustion engines and gearboxes. For it to fail SO RAPIDLY, from fine to destroyed in 4000 miles! Plus 81,000 miles is meant to be nothing to a VAG, they are supposed to and generally soldier on towards 200,000 miles!

And yeah, jump on the "oh, he must be a boy racer band-wagon, lets assume he hasn't a clue what modifying a car does to the life-span of the internal parts". The LCR is standard! Otherwise I would have stated so, so don't even start on that one!

No, I am not after sympathy (especially from you). No, I don't expect them to replace it but you think they might be interested in why it has failed so catastrophically!

If you have nothing more to add than abuse/sarcasm/patronising tones then I suggest you carry on surfing the rest of the forum and leave this thread for others.

 

[jojo]

Lol! Got to agree with Karl there, I purchased my car from Audi approved, and my gearbox exploded on the M42 due to a diff pin firing out the side of it, and at no point did I even consider calling Audi to make a complaint! It happens, you buy a used car and take the risks. I just got a used replacement gearbox for £350, put a new clutch in and swopped over for around £750 including labour, and it's been fine since. I'd only go the rebuild gearbox route if I intend to keep the car forever.

I take it your purchased the car in a private sale, which means 'sold as seen', which also means you don't have a leg to stand on with regards to getting someone else to pay for a fault which is more than likely wear and tear related. If it was a trade sale, then maybe the car has some sort of warranty, but I guess you wouldn't have come on here to post this, if that was the case.

Good luck with your repair though.

 

[superkarl]

Where have I put that I am directly blaming VAG!?

errrrrmmmmm........

I love VAGs, I rate them VERY highly, however this experience and the fact a gearbox has literally eaten itself in no more than 4000 miles has changed my mind.

BEWARE ANYONE BUYING A VAG WITH A 6-SPEED BOX!

 

[trigmk2]

That isn't blame. That is saying my personal opinion on the brand is different due to my experience.

And again, a warning this can happen to anyone with a VAG 6-speed box...

NOT Blame

PLUS read the FIRST LINE - "posting my story everywhere in the hope it doesn't happen to other people"

 

[trigmk2]

I take it your purchased the car in a private sale, which means 'sold as seen', which also means you don't have a leg to stand on with regards to getting someone else to pay for a fault which is more than likely wear and tear related.

I haven't blamed the previous owner, I enquired if he had any g/b issues but said there wasn't, plus there was no noise when the car was purchased in Jaunary.

The problem I have is the speed/time-scale in which the gearbox destroyed itself. That's why I've contacted them.

 

[superkarl]

I have never experienced anything like this.

Oh in that case its awful then. You should be heavily compensated for this surprise.

For it to fail SO RAPIDLY, from fine to destroyed in 4000 miles

Did you expect some sort of alarm warning you that THINGS WEAR and ARE WEARING with use.
If you have an engineering degree people would expect you to have a bit more understanding of this unfortunate mishap, thats all it is at the end of the day.

they are supposed to and generally soldier on towards 200,000 miles

are they?! hahahaha. brilliant. If you could, will you find us the piece of literature or statement from chief design engineers for vag stating this.

AND FINALLY

at no point have I said they should accept responsibility or pay for a new gear-box

...... so what exactly is your point? your point in joining forums to make the original, contradictive statement you made. What is the point if this quoted statement is true??

 

[jojo]

I'm not sure this warning is all that beneficial trig, there's thousands of six speed gearboxes out on the road, mine is only two cases of the diff pin destroying a gearbox on this forum that I know of in 10years of being on here! So I would say its quite a reliable unit personally, you was just one of the unlucky ones!

I have a mk2 16v also running original gearbox and clutch, those cars was built to last, not to mention the mk2 weighs around a ton and has a lot less torque to deal with, so less stress. My daily workhorse is a B5 Passat tdi estate with over 200k miles still on original clutch and gearbox, and running chipped power as well, so my opinion is VAGs are reliable machines based on my own experience!

 

[ex911driver]

It is common knowledge the 6spd gearbox has a fault , the rivets wear /break. You can get repair kits for them. As for the condition of the rest of the gearbox you will be told it is normal. You bought it with 78000 miles ,what history has the car got with it? Do you know how it was driven previously? Just because you drive it carefully doesn`t account for the previous owners driving.
The LCR is the type of car that are generally driven hard in their lifetime,sounds like the first 78000 were very hard miles.

 

[trigmk2]

I'm not sure this warning is all that beneficial trig, there's thousands of six speed gearboxes out on the road, mine is only two cases of the diff pin destroying a gearbox on this forum that I know of in 10years of being on here! So I would say its quite a reliable unit personally, you was just one of the unlucky ones!

Well I tried to be of help to other people but it appears my attempt has been interpreted by some as an all out attack on VAG. I stated the warning signs I had leading up to what happened so maybe others would be aware of what to look for.

I appreciate the fact the mk2 is a much lighter car (mine comes in at 996kg unladen) but it has seen a lot more gear changes over it's life and a lot more ferocious ones at that.

"Just how long is a car's lifetime? It varies, but 150,000 miles or 10 years is typical. Clearly, cars can serve longer than this. But more typically, a decade down the road..."
5 things you don't know about your car - MSN Autos

Plus I did learn some things from guest speakers and my visits into the automotive industry so "typically" 200,000 is pretty much right.

I cannot believe the hostility of the response from certain users on this forum. Do you just enjoy attacking new members because they appear not to know as much as you with your thousands of posts?
I am a member of many (varied) forums and have rarely come across such aggression.

I know that will not be true for 99% of forum users but it is those in the 1% that can spoil a place set up TO HELP/ADVISE PEOPLE.

 

[superkarl]

It is common knowledge the 6spd gearbox has a fault

Its more of a weakness than a fault. Like the 1.8t con rods.
the selector fork, like you say being riveted is generally upgraded to steel welded forks like the ones available from usp motorsports when upping the power.
for it breaking, or more aptly wearing at stock power levels, is purely unfortunate

 

[trigmk2]

what history has the car got with it? Do you know how it was driven previously? Just because you drive it carefully doesn`t account for the previous owners driving.
The LCR is the type of car that are generally driven hard in their lifetime,sounds like the first 78000 were very hard miles.

The car has a full service history, stamped in the book. It was previously driven by the guys wife and when purchased the engine pulled fine, no smoking, but the gearbox wasn't making any noise and the gears selected witout any issue what-so-ever. I know gearbox repairs are expensive and if I had thought there was an issue in any way, I would have walked.

 

[superkarl]

Well I tried to be of help to other people but it appears my attempt has been interpreted by some as an all out attack on VAG. I stated the warning signs I had leading up to what happened so maybe others would be aware of what to look for.

I appreciate the fact the mk2 is a much lighter car (mine comes in at 996kg unladen) but it has seen a lot more gear changes over it's life and a lot more ferocious ones at that.

"Just how long is a car's lifetime? It varies, but 150,000 miles or 10 years is typical. Clearly, cars can serve longer than this. But more typically, a decade down the road..."
5 things you don't know about your car - MSN Autos

Plus I did learn some things from guest speakers and my visits into the automotive industry so "typically" 200,000 is pretty much right.

I cannot believe the hostility of the response from certain users on this forum. Do you just enjoy attacking new members because they appear not to know as much as you with your thousands of posts?
I am a member of many (varied) forums and have rarely come across such aggression.

I know that will not be true for 99% of forum users but it is those in the 1% that can spoil a place set up TO HELP/ADVISE PEOPLE.

some comments in here are so far from the truth.

I couldnt give a dam whether you launched an attack on bag, i dont care about vag, im not defending the marque i choose to support. Im defending common sense.
I honestly, dont understand how you cannot see what we mean, and how we interpret your original post.
Im sorry that i came across as arsey and hostile. But your OP seems to me a little irrational, a little pointless, and doesnt HELP
anyone whatsoever.
il assume you're familier with the 1.8t engine, so lets imagine a user joining a forum and saying 'GUYS, just wanted to let you know that your conrods could bend at any given moment and your block will explode'. That is pretty much what you have done here.

i dont mean to be so disrespectful. And like you brought up in one of your other replies, i honestly dont jump to the conclusion that youre a ricer and drive like a hooligan with a tuned car. But having some engineering experience, i think we'd all expect you to understand whats happened to your car.

sorry for whats happened to it. i dont wish it on anyone and if it happened to myself id be equally upset.
hope you get it fixed and you can forget whats happened and enjoy the car for what it is.
please dont be put off the forum because of my responses.

 

[ex911driver]

Was it a private sale? There are alot of treatments/tricks used to cover noise etc in engines and gearboxes.
Not saying you are not savvy when buying cars, you have owned 8 which is not that many really. Sounds like you may have been sold a dud.

 

[trigmk2]

Oh in that case its awful then. You should be heavily compensated for this surprise.

Where have I said I expect to be compensated?

Did you expect some sort of alarm warning you that THINGS WEAR and ARE WEARING with use.
If you have an engineering degree people would expect you to have a bit more understanding of this unfortunate mishap, thats all it is at the end of the day.

The alarm was the initial rattle that's when I booked it in to the garage. The time between that and it actually going in for the work there was an exceptionally rapid deterioration.

are they?! hahahaha. brilliant. If you could, will you find us the piece of literature or statement from chief design engineers for vag stating this.

Firstly i said typically as there are thousands of examples of VAGs doing over 200,000 miles with ease.

"Just how long is a car's lifetime? It varies, but 150,000 miles or 10 years is typical. Clearly, cars can serve longer than this. But more typically, a decade down the road..."
5 things you don't know about your car - MSN Autos

AND FINALLY

...... so what exactly is your point? your point in joining forums to make the original, contradictive statement you made. What is the point if this quoted statement is true??

As I have previously posted and said in the FIRST LINE of my ORIGNAL POST.
To warn people that this has occured and it is a possiblity, hence why I detailed the circumstances leading up to it? If I wanted to VAG-bash I didn't need to go into anywhere near as much detail.

 

[trigmk2]

Was it a private sale? There are alot of treatments/tricks used to cover noise etc in engines and gearboxes.
Not saying you are not savvy when buying cars, you have owned 8 which is not that many really. Sounds like you may have been sold a dud.

It was a private sale and I'd hope if they had used any tricks to cover it they would have been discovered by the guys who currently have the gearbox in pieces.

 

[trigmk2]

I honestly, dont understand how you cannot see what we mean, and how we interpret your original post.
Im sorry that i came across as arsey and hostile. But your OP seems to me a little irrational, a little pointless, and doesnt HELP
anyone whatsoever.
il assume you're familier with the 1.8t engine, so lets imagine a user joining a forum and saying 'GUYS, just wanted to let you know that your conrods could bend at any given moment and your block will explode'. That is pretty much what you have done here.

i dont mean to be so disrespectful. And like you brought up in one of your other replies, i honestly dont jump to the conclusion that youre a ricer and drive like a hooligan with a tuned car. But having some engineering experience, i think we'd all expect you to understand whats happened to your car.

please dont be put off the forum because of my responses.

I can see what you mean. Yes, I am rather frustrated about the whole situation but the whole point was to warn other users that there IS the possibility of this happening to somebody else and it may not be at 120,000 miles like you might expect but at the happier side of 100,000.

I'd like to think I've done more than say "your gearbox might eat itself" as I have described the scenario that lead to the discovery. I would hope that someone with a slight rattle might think, "hmm, maybe I should get that seen to sooner rather than later"
Plus I thought it illustrated the damage that COULD (not will) occur if the common fault is not rectified in a speedy manor.

You'd have to trust me (not that it seems many people will after this thread) but I do know a fair bit about cars, but have no plans to stop increasing that.

I appreciate maybe some of my wording did lead the interpretation the other way from how it was supposed to, I guess there is still anger there that I am in this situation.

Honestly, I have been put off by my experience on here (I notice my bar is already on infamous after half an hour) but I have been told by another user I personally know, that there is a wealth of experience on here especially as it is substantially larger that the SEAT forum. i would have liked to contribute and share my experiences, as clearly I've not owned the LCR for very long and have a lot to learn, but with a damaged reputation before I've even begun I do not see very much point.

 

[s3dave]

Reputation back....

 

[voorhees]

Whatever happened to the old fashioned Hi my names _____ posts ?

 

[jojo]

I think it's unrealistic to expect a gearbox to last 150k miles personally, everyone out on the road drives differently, and everyone uses their car differently. My own S3 killed its original gearbox at around 50k ish miles, and I drive like a grandad 85% of the time, but I have also used the car on track sessions on a few occasions. Maybe the track work was a contributing factor? The gearbox went when I changed from 4th to 5th on the exit of a slip road heading onto the motorway, I was not accelerating hard, nor was the gear changed rushed, it just happened!

Basically, my opinion is that occasionally, things happens to cars beyond our control, and when it happens to someone else, it's unlucky mate, hope it's a cheap fix, but when it happens to your own car, the sh!t hits the fan, and we get a little peeved... Especially when the bill for the repair is a high amount compared to the value of the car!

You was just unlucky trig, get it fixed and live to fight another day mate! SEAT(or VAG) isn't going to give a damn, but you know that already!, just move on bud.

 

[trigmk2]

Reputation back....

Greatly Appreciated

Whatever happened to the old fashioned Hi my names _____ posts ?

Usually, I would go about this first. However, I have only had my 1.8T for a couple of months and have really only been lurking, doing silent research as I hadn't gain much to contribute. This was the first thing I felt worth posting.

I think it's unrealistic to expect a gearbox to last 150k miles personally, everyone out on the road drives differently, and everyone uses their car differently.

Maybe the track work was a contributing factor?

Basically, my opinion is that occasionally, things happens to cars beyond our control, and when it happens to someone else, it's unlucky mate, hope it's a cheap fix, but when it happens to your own car, the sh!t hits the fan, and we get a little peeved... Especially when the bill for the repair is a high amount compared to the value of the car!

You was just unlucky trig, get it fixed and live to fight another day mate! SEAT(or VAG) isn't going to give a damn, but you know that already!, just move on bud.

Obviously the driver(s) affect the life span immensely but again I have to refer back to my Golf. God knows how that was treated before I got hold of it, but on a few days I was not gentle by any means. It too managed a track day and kept going. I get that compared to a turbo, it has the torque firgure of a humming bird but by the same token, the parts are only designed to withstand that amount of torque plus a safety factor. Although, it does run rod shift instead of cable, more accurate to some extent so that may contribute...

And yes, things do happen, I'm just tired of it being to my cars. I only bought the Leon as my Golf needed too much work doing to keep it running as my everyday car. Now as it transpires I could have just spent the cash on the Golf (though I would miss the mod-cons). At this point in time I sadly have to say that my Ford was more reliable :S

Sadly there's nothing I can do now but wait, they are working on it as fast as they are able and I have faith that it will be sorted and I will enjoy the car again.

 

[16Klappe]

Thanks for this piece of Internet gold, I would be lost without this ****. I love that you claim an engineering degree means you know about cars, you clearly know **** all which explains getting a garage to do the work. I have got a degree in Motorsport development, doesn't mean I can build bridges.

"Dear Mr Seat,

My 8 year old performance hatch back which I purchased second hand which has undoubtedly been driven like a race car for the past 80,000 miles has a worn out gearbox.

As such I would like a new gearbox please.

Thanks."

Can you understand how mental that sounds and why people area suggesting you have a bit of PMT?

Also just for reference this is far from a common problem, I know plenty of people with 200k old 02M boxes which are faultless. Therefore your pride and joy has probably had the tits thrashed off it since day one.

Welcome to the forum, feel free to stick around. We are all straight talking grumpy/sarcastic ****ers but if you stick around you'll notice none of it is personal. Joining up and moaning about a broken gearbox on an 8 year old car won't go down well here, because at least 2 of the people who have replied to this thread have had full on engine rebuilds within the last 6 months...They would love a blown 02m to be the biggest problem in their life.

You should have sacked the old box off and purchased a cheap as chips used gearbox for £250 and been done with it, your rebuilt box is as likely to go bang as a known good box with 100k.

 

[lgooch]

C'mon lets stop bashing trig. He has had some bad luck and vented it on here as well as probably another dozen forums. I think if you feel a post is irrelevant, then just don't bother reading it and move on. No real need to reply, none of us own the forum so just ignore the posts you don't agree with.

However It does seem unusual that his gearbox has eaten itself but quite frankly it could have been any gearbox which failed due to fatigue of any given component. Rare on any car usually and LCRs probably have another dozen common faults which we would have expected I.e, MAF, coil packs, boost leaks etc. I work with high speed rotating machinery and see equipment failures due to component failure on a regular basis. This can be down to the operation of the equipment, metal fatigue, wrong lubrication, abuse or just plain old general wear and tear.

Just because a woman owned his car does not mean to say it was driven correctly. My Mrs is a chuffin nightmare and wrecks every car she has had. Without the full history of the car and I don't mean just who drove it, anything could have been done to it. For all trig knows the gearbox oil could have been changed with a non recommended oil.

Trig I wouldn't suggest marching into SEAT with a broken box at 80k telling them there cars are crap. They will just laugh at you. I know you are frustrated but I would just get it repaired and move on. I hope it gives you trouble free motoring in the future.

Anyway enough of my pish and wind. Welcome to the forum trig.

Buy and Audi next time

 

[chadvaliant]

Hi Trig

I found your post helpful and I'm not sure why you got slated so badly. I'm trying to diagnose a fault with my 8P S3 and now I'm wondering if it's the gearbox. My symptoms are...

1. Droning noise as I decelerate through 2500rpm.
2. Knocking noise at idle. This happened once only.
3. Rattling noise when I let the clutch out. This also only happened once.
4. Gear changes are notchy. Sometimes it even refuses to go into gear at all.
5. Clutch pedal and gear lever sometimes shake badly.

Did you get any of those problems?

My problems started after I had a new clutch, flywheel and release bearing put in and I assumed they must have screwed something up but they have taken it apart again and said that nothing is wrong with their parts or work.

Cheers

 

[@udi A3]

Rapid failure is putting gearbox oil in a previously run dry 205 gti gearbox. Litrally took 50 miles to blow a hole with the diff dropping out! My 6speed vag box has rattled for 30k miles now thanks to a smf conversion

 

[towcestervag]

well ive worked for vag for 30yrs
the front wheel drive gearboxes have allways been a weak point starting from the 020 5 speed golf/jetta/scirocco they used to pop the diff rivets through the casings and there was a bolt repair kit for them if you caught them quick enough
the later boxes use to break the selector rivets and do diffs
the newer boxes do bearings and diffs
all were modified over the years inc the new boxes
ive had boxes blow within the first years warranty and seen boxes with excess of 300k without oil changes
yes youve had some bad luck trig
i could say the same about my evo cambelt failure after 20k resulting in new engine
diff bolt failure for the 3rd time and no launches involved
i think you just need to grin and bear it and get it repaired then enjoy the car