DSG durability

[h5djr]

You've hit the nail on the head there. It's a personal choice where each buyer will consider whether they'd get any value from it and if so, how much.

Exactly, you put your money where you will get most enjoyment. To me that's s-tronic. To others it's leather seats, which I hate, in-built Sat/Nav, where I prefer my TomTom, B+O sound system, which I would hardly ever use, Audi phone box, which again I would never use, advanced key, where I'm happy with the ordinary key system, privacy glass which I think makes the car look like an expensive van etc.

It's each to his own and at least Audi give us the chance to chose where we spend our money.

I do agree with you about the Launch control. It's a 'boy racer' gimmick and not for normal driving. I've never use it with any of my four s-tronics.

 

[h5djr]

I test drove one for a good few hours in all types of conditions when DSG first appeared on the A3. Whilst the gearchanges were very smooth when "pressing on", I despised the hesitation, both when pulling away from a standstill and when accelerating sharply whilst cruising at a constant speed. Maybe these have been improved now but, back then, it seemed to have far too many of the disadvantages of regular torque converter automatics and it just annoyed me.

Well I don't suffer from any hesitation problem. I might well if I drove in D or S but I don't. When I'm stopped I release the brake until the car just start to pull forward and then very lightly press the brake and hold it like that. When a gap appears I just move my foot from the brake to the accelerator and away. No clutch slipping or other drama, it just goes. Being a diesel with a short rev band, a second or so later it changes from 1st to 2nd and depending on the speed to 3rd, all at full throttle. No pauses with out power whilst I change manually.

If that technique is not enough to get me going enough before the next vehicle arrives I do what any good driver should do and wait for a gap that is big enough.

I only asked about your age because you may or may not still be driving new cars when manual gear boxes are no longer a option.

 

[Trev241]

This is the bit I really don't get.

If I really want a manual, why would I want to pay £1500 for S-Tronic which works 'just like a manual'?

Well said, I could not agree more.

 

[h5djr]

Yes but I don't want a manual gearbox with a manual clutch. I want what Porsche call 'tiptronic' power assisted gear change without a clutch and with all the other advantages I get from the s-tronic. To me that is well worth £1400. It's a lot less than some of the options available and according to my dealer it is one of the few options where you get some of your money back when you sell or trade-in.

 

[mactrack]

I want what Porsche call 'tiptronic' power assisted gear change without a clutch

Don't Porsche call that PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplung) with Tiptronic being a standard torque-convertor auto which has been around for decades?

 

[h5djr]

Don't Porsche call that PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplung) with Tiptronic being a standard torque-convertor auto which has been around for decades?

Yes your right. Tiptronic is in fact a trade name owned by Porsche. But 'tipronic mode' is a term now used a lot to indicate the manual control of an auto or semi auto gearbox where the driver can select the individual gears. The Porsche PDK is very similar to the 6-speed wet clutch version DSG or s-tronic apart from with the PDK to change up you move the lever towards you whereas with the DSG you move it away. Could be rather confusing going from one to the other!! Perhaps now Porsche are part of Volkswagen things may change in the future. The version of the s-tronic that Audi now fit in the R8 it may well end in various Porsche models as well.

 

[the_cueball]

I have the, probably early version of the triptronic auto box in my S8... it's fast enough most of the time to be left in D and I just get on with it... I only really find myself using the steering wheel buttons (yes, that early, no 'paddles' lol) when I'm either wanting some engine braking, or find myself on a nice flowing A or B road...

It's nice having the option..... I'm not that fused about the whole manual/auto debate, just as long as whatever is in there works!

:thumbsup:

 

[h5djr]

I have the, probably early version of the triptronic auto box in my S8... it's fast enough most of the time to be left in D and I just get on with it... I only really find myself using the steering wheel buttons (yes, that early, no 'paddles' lol) when I'm either wanting some engine braking, or find myself on a nice flowing A or B road...

It's nice having the option..... I'm not that fused about the whole manual/auto debate, just as long as whatever is in there works!

:thumbsup:

It nice on the flowing A and B roads you mention, with the s-tonic in the A3, just being able to keep both hands on the steering wheel and change gear with just one or two fingers on the paddles....
I have some such roads near where I live and they are usually quite quiet during the day when most other people are at work. Makes for very enjoyable driving and I often go out just for the drive. Even more so on some similar lovely country roads in Germany.

 

[Artimus]

Just a note for those complaining of lag at junctions... it should be known that there's an option in VCDS that adjusts the bite point of first gear ..Hill Hold Assist is defaulted to medium (timed) release, but can be adjusted to low or high (timing)! Setting it to low means it engages as soon as you release the brake pedal at tickover and gives near instant forward drive, without the initial snatching of the default setting - which takes so long to engage that you've already applied revs! I've found that it also seems to make for a less aggressive gear change in general driving too ..which is an unexpected bonus! Thinking logically, it might even help the clutch\s last longer.

That is all. :icon_thumright:

 

[karlfevans]

I've had four A3s with 6-speed wet clutch DSGs over the last 9 years and 120k miles and not a single problem with any of them.

H5:

Can you be specific? Is the 120k miles over 4 A3's, which is 30,000 per A3?

What I care about is longevity. I have a 2003 A4 with a manual transmission with 160,000 miles (256,000 km). I have a BMW X5 with manual transmission with 165,000 miles (265,000 km).

Both the A4 and the X5 have the original clutch and zero issues. None.

 

[h5djr]

Yes of course. One was 36,720miles, one was 30,600 and the third 38,260 plus my current A3 which has done around 14,000. I not personally interested in the very long life of a DSG because there is no way I would keep a car for that long. I like new cars!!

I had four other (not A3) Audi before my A3s all of which had manual gearboxes. These I had for around 45,000 miles and a Golf VR6 in between those and the A3s which I had for 60,000 miles. I also had four manual A3s before the DSG versions, again for around 45,000 miles each. Two of those had problems with the reverse gear synchromesh which was one of the reasons I wanted to try the DSG in the first place.

Certainly with the 6-speed DSG which having clutches operating in an oil bath, Audi say these clutches will last the 'life' of the car, whatever mileage that means! At least there is no wear caused by slipping the clutch so they may well be right.

 

[karlfevans]

Yes of course. One was 36,720miles, one was 30,600 and the third 38,260 plus my current A3. I have no interest in the very long life of a DSG because there is no way I would keep a car for that long. I like new cars!!

Thank you. I must be an automotive miser keeping my cars so long. To me, the DSG taxi failures are a very large red flag.

However, I do regret getting the 6 speed manual in my 2012 S5. The car is fairly heavy and more suited to the automated manual.

 

[Ste_Nova]

The bits I liked about DSG when I bought them were the minimal impact on fuel economy and performance compared to a standard auto. Once a standard auto does the same, there's no differentiation.

i've got a standard auto.... on the extra urban cycle the figures are identical to the manual

 

[h5djr]

Thank you. I must be an automotive miser keeping my cars so long. To me, the DSG taxi failures are a very large red flag.

I wonder how quickly those same taxis go through a conventional clutch.

 

[thesutex]

I wonder how quickly those same taxis go through a conventional clutch.

i´ve never seen a taxi with manual =)

 

[karlfevans]

i´ve never seen a taxi with manual =)

They have them in Istanbul, Rio, Sao Paulo, and Mexico City. Always get a kick out of manual transmission taxis.

 

[hittchy]

I wonder how quickly those same taxis go through a conventional clutch.

mmm.... Clutch kit £500 in local independent garage.... DSG gearbox £5,000 only through Audi....

DSG box would be second most expensive part of the car whereas the clutch on a manual car would be considered a serviceable item. A set of brake discs and pads all round would probably cost not far off £500 in Audi.

 

[h5djr]

Only likely to be relevant if you keep the car for a very long time. Audi claim the DSG will last as long as the car, particularly as it's impossible to abuse the clutch with the DSG.

How long does a manual clutch last these days. The last time I had a clutch changed was when I had a second-hand mini. I've also had major repairs done to a manual gearbox in the past when the gear change became impossible when it got hot as well as problems with the synchromesh on reverse gear on two of my Audi A3s. This was with cars that had done less than 40,000 miles.

As I now tend to keep my cars around 3 years, they are always under warranty, so if I was to get a problem it would not cost me anything.

 

[hittchy]

Exactly. It's likely to affect second/third users or high mileage drivers and those keeping their cars for a long time.

If I was buying secondhand, I would steer clear of DSG. Mind you, the last Audi I owned outside the warranty was in 2003 and I vowed never to do it again. They're just far too expensive when they go wrong.

If I was in the position where I had to, I'd avoid any 'big ticket' options. It's one of the reasons big prestige cars depreciate so heavily - the cost of replacing some electric seat motors on a 10 year old 7 series BMW could write off the car.

DSG is still a relatively new technology for VAG. I think I had one of the first on an A3 in early 2005. It won't be too long before we get some hard evidence on the longevity of the gearbox. There's a guy on the Skoda forum with a DSG taxi with 500,000 km on the clock but these reports are few and far between at the moment. If they all start failing at 120,000 miles, how will that affect residuals on a car with 90k or 100k?

The debate rages across the interweb.... The Audi TT Forum :: View topic - DSG is it worth the risk?

 

[h5djr]

The DSG was launched in 2003 and became the world's first dual clutch transmission in a series production car, in the German-market Volkswagen Golf Mk4 R32 and shortly afterwards, worldwide in the original Audi TT 3.2.

So yes, fairly new technology, but from my personal point of view, it has proved more reliable than a manual gearbox. Out of the eight A3s I've owned, four have been manual and four have been DSG. Of the four manual's, two gave me problems. The four with DSGs have had no problems at all. I must admit when I buy a new car I'm not bothered what happens to it further down the line, providing it retains it's value for when I change, which has certainly been the case with my four.

 

[Chelmersteve]

A few quick points - VAG supply at least 4 different designs of DSG box, 2 of which are available on the A3, so talking about DSG boxes without being specific as to which one is a bit meaningless. They are designed by different companies and have different design characteristics
On the latest A3 from Sport upwards Audi Drive Select is standard and can adjust the vehicle's characteristics including DSG gearbox shift response.

 

[h5djr]

Agreed. Details of the four versions are as follows:

VW - for transverse engines - DQ250 - 6-speed wet clutch - can handle up to 350 Nm - code 02E - original by Boug Warner/VW

VW - for transverse engines - DQ200 - 7-speed dry clutch - can handle up to 300 Nm - 0AM - by Luk Clutch Systems

VW - for transverse engines - DQ500 - 7 speed wet clutch - can handle up to 500 Nm - code OBH - first used in Audi TT RS

Audi - for in-line engines - DL501 - 7 speed wet clutch - can handle up to 600 Nm - code 0B5 - developed by Audi transmissions

My own personal experience has only been of the original 6-speed wet clutch (DQ250) as all my four A3 with DSG have been 2.0TDIs.

 

[Artimus]

Agreed. Details of the four versions are as follows:

VW - for transverse engines - DQ250 - 6-speed wet clutch - can handle up to 250 Nm - code 02E - original by Boug Warner/VW

VW - for transverse engines - DQ200 - 7-speed dry clutch - can handle up to 200 Nm - 0AM - by Luk Clutch Systems

VW - for transverse engines - DQ500 - 7 speed wet clutch - can handle up to 500 Nm - code OBH - first used in Audi TT RS

Audi - for in-line engines - DL501 - 7 speed wet clutch - can handle up to 600 Nm - code 0B5 - developed by Audi transmissions

My own personal experience has only been of the original 6-speed wet clutch (DQ250) as all my four A3 with DSG have been 2.0TDIs.

The quoted figures for at least one of those has to be wrong! Mine is the 6 speed wet clutch type & came from the factory with 206 lb\ft = 280 Nm torque! Your figures suggest it should probably have died during its first flying start.

The standard S3 will output more than that again. 😉

 

[h5djr]

Yes your are right. Getting carried away with the VW numbers for the DSGs. The 250 Nm should be 350 and the 200 Nm should be 300. Go to the top of the class for spotting that. I will edit my post accordingly. My own 2.0 TDI has 320 Nm.

 

[Artimus]

slightly O\T again, but those figures are probably an Audi clutch protection estimate and are way too conservative...

http://www.audi-sport.net/vb/a3-s3-sportback-8p-chassis/179959-s3-s-tronic-gearboxes-6-speed-wheres-limit-clutch-pack.html#post1784786,

Post #11

We have plenty of cars running 500-600nm on the stock clutch packs, it's the delivery of the torque that's the killer. If the engine is mapped for a really aggressive boost delivery at 3000rpm then this puts a real strain on the clutch, but if it's mapped sensibly then they are fine. We do an upgrade clutch pack ( dsg clutch upgrade ) that will stand 750nm officially, but we currently have a customer running a MK1 TT 3.2 Turbo with these clutches in that is holding over 800nm on the Dyno!

again, non of this is relevant to the 7 speed dry clutch DSG I believe the OP is concerned about, but it does demonstrate how tough the gearbox itself can be.

 

[Daz Auto]

I know that the hesitation coming out of a junction will annoy me. You also have no clutch control on an S-Tronic.... it's stop or go. I don't think you have anywhere near as much overall control with S-Tronic as you do with manual.

What hesitation are you refering to at junctions? There is a hesitation when I initially select R, D or S. However, I have not noticed this for normal stop/start driving. Press the accelerator and my car just goes.

My issue at junctions is usually traction especially on wet roads. This would be easier to control by slipping a clutch.

 

[Daz Auto]

You're right about launch control being a gimmick for the 'boy racers'. I can honestly say I never used it. I just don't think it would work in practice as an everyday system. I couldn't abide the car holding a high RPM whilst I waited for a gap in traffic on a roundabout.

I'd rather just buy a manual gearbox!

'I couldn't abide the car holding a high RPM' Well, it has been over a year since I tested it. IIRC it holds at 2000 RPM in my diesel, I doubt if other drivers would even notice it until I release the brakes I agree it is a bit of a gimmick. Could only be used used on dry roads with warm tyres. Even then it would destroy tyres quickly.

 

[Daz Auto]

So yes, fairly new technology, but from my personal point of view, it has proved more reliable than a manual gearbox. Out of the eight A3s I've owned, four have been manual and four have been DSG. Of the four manual's, two gave me problems. The four with DSGs have had no problems at all. I must admit when I buy a new car I'm not bothered what happens to it further down the line, providing it retains it's value for when I change, which has certainly been the case with my four.

My Mk5 Golf had 2 refurbished dual mass flywheel clutches installed, before they finally fixed the problem with a brand new clutch. Did Audi fit the same crap clutches?

Edit: I would like to point out that I have never had any previous clutch problems in nearly 30 years of driving... as the song says - it wasn't me!

 

[hittchy]

What hesitation are you refering to at junctions? There is a hesitation when I initially select R, D or S. However, I have not noticed this for normal stop/start driving. Press the accelerator and my car just goes.

My issue at junctions is usually traction especially on wet roads. This would be easier to control by slipping a clutch.

If you want to get out fast on a tight busy roundabout, you notice it. I had it on two DSG models back in 2005ish. It was also present on the Golf DSG I recently test drove. The DSG always reacted about a second or so after I would have been out in a manual car. On a small fast roundabout it can feel dangerous.

As I've said in previous posts, it seems to depend on your driving style. My wife never noticed it at all but she's much calmer behind the wheel.

 

[hittchy]

DMFs and DPFs seem to be the latest big ticket items to scare the average punter. I believe both these are also present on the DSG model as well as the manual.

My DSG had three software updates to try and cure issues. In the end, the dealer said it was a normal characteristic so I changed the car and bought a manual S3.

I haven't changed a clutch (or DMF on later cars) for over 20 years and only then after more than 100,000 miles.

 

[hittchy]

'I couldn't abide the car holding a high RPM' Well, it has been over a year since I tested it. IIRC it holds at 2000 RPM in my diesel, I doubt if other drivers would even notice it until I release the brakes I agree it is a bit of a gimmick. Could only be used used on dry roads with warm tyres. Even then it would destroy tyres quickly.

I remember it being more rpm than that, but I may be wrong. It's over 4 years since I last owned a DSG car. I also remember the manual warning against using it too much. Holding 2000rpm for 10 seconds or so is forgivable. However, waiting 30 seconds plus at a roundabout at 2000rpm would be a tad embarrassing. I also remember quite a convoluted process to engage it.

I used to use Sport mode instead which seemed to improve the getaway. It was no substitute for a manual car though. The S3 was far quicker on roundabouts (power difference accepted).

 

[Daz Auto]

AFAIK the CR engine and the DPF are designed to work together. Unlike the PD engine which had the DPF attached to meet emission standards and caused problems unless you did enough long journeys.

May be it's the 170hp or the CR engine or a newer DSG or maybe I have just got used to it, but I have never found any delay from standing start. The car is after all, already in 1st gear. The DSG does not have to make a selection like it does when overtaking. There is always a slight delay when overtaking - even when I select S.

 

[Daz Auto]

I remember it being more rpm than that, but I may be wrong. It's over 4 years since I last owned a DSG car. I also remember the manual warning against using it too much. Holding 2000rpm for 10 seconds or so is forgivable. However, waiting 30 seconds plus at a roundabout at 2000rpm would be a tad embarrassing. I also remember quite a convoluted process to engage it.

I used to use Sport mode instead which seemed to improve the getaway. It was no substitute for a manual car though. The S3 was far quicker on roundabouts (power difference accepted).

Yeah, I had to look up how to engage it. Switch off traction control, move gear selector to S, operate brake with left foot and push accelerator to the floor with right foot. It says 3200rpm in the user guide. However, that is probably for the petrol GTI.

I have tried everything and still don't notice the delay you refer to. It may be a newer DSG or diesel torque?

It is the delay when overtaking that annoys me. For this reason I may go back to manual. Though for 95% of my driving I would miss automatic.

Part of the reason I chose automatic was the speed advantage. However, this probably only happens when launch control is used. There is a video on youtube showing that an automatic Golf R is on average 1 second faster from 0-60mph than a manual. The S-tronic equiped S3 will be the same in the real world. Though, how often do I need to do 0-60 mph in 8 seconds in my Golf GTD. I overtake a lot and often find myself wishing for a manual. On paper the manual car would be lighter with better in gear acceleration for overtaking. IMO the automatic does not have the control necessary for fast, smooth overtaking. I have tried every mode.

 

[h5djr]

It is the delay when overtaking that annoys me. For this reason I may go back to manual. Though for 95% of my driving I would miss automatic.

What mode is this in, manual or D/S. Did you try just clicking the change down paddle? This works even when in D/S mode and the DSG returns to auto mode in a few minutes. Also if you click it twice quickly it will change down two gears if you want it to.

 

[Daz Auto]

What mode is this in, manual or D/S. Did you try just clicking the change down paddle? This works even when in D/S mode and the DSG returns to auto mode in a few minutes. Also if you click it twice quickly it will change down two gears if you want it to.

... tried that. Twice on the left paddle, foot to the kick down switch. I find the car needs a second to settle. Once on either paddle is good for slow overtakes i.e. left for 5th or right for stay in 6th.

If I select S then foot to the KDS. The car needs a second to settle.

In D, foot to the floor and hit the kick down switch. Often the slowest option.

The fastest way is definitely M and be in the gear you need, just like a regular manual. But I find changing up is not as smooth with the paddles.

My usual method is select S a few seconds before I intend to press the accelerator. Press down to the KDS then above 3000rpm press the KDS.

 

[karlfevans]

... tried that. Twice on the left paddle, foot to the kick down switch. I find the car needs a second to settle. Once on either paddle is good for slow overtakes i.e. left for 5th or right for stay in 6th.

If I select S then foot to the KDS. The car needs a second to settle.

In D, foot to the floor and hit the kick down switch. Often the slowest option.

The fastest way is definitely M and be in the gear you need, just like a regular manual. But I find changing up is not as smooth with the paddles.

My usual method is select S a few seconds before I intend to press the accelerator. Press down to the KDS then above 3000rpm press the KDS.

This thread is convincing me to stay with my beloved manual transmission. The only hesitation I get is in my brain. Good luck guys.

In the US the 2.0 is only offered with DSG, and after I test drove it, it was not for me.

 

[Vertigo1]

This thread is convincing me to stay with my beloved manual transmission. The only hesitation I get is in my brain. Good luck guys.

In the US the 2.0 is only offered with DSG, and after I test drove it, it was not for me.

Couldn't agree more. Some love it, some hate it. You need to drive it yourself to find out what camp you're in

 

[h5djr]

... tried that. Twice on the left paddle, foot to the kick down switch. I find the car needs a second to settle. Once on either paddle is good for slow overtakes i.e. left for 5th or right for stay in 6th.

If I select S then foot to the KDS. The car needs a second to settle.

In D, foot to the floor and hit the kick down switch. Often the slowest option.

The fastest way is definitely M and be in the gear you need, just like a regular manual. But I find changing up is not as smooth with the paddles.

My usual method is select S a few seconds before I intend to press the accelerator. Press down to the KDS then above 3000rpm press the KDS.

Interesting. I never use D or S and never use the kickdown switch. As I drive in manual mode all the time I find I generally get enough torque from the 2.0 TDI by just dropping one gear with the paddle for a quick overtake. I also find the paddles are the smoothest and easiest way to get a good up change. There is no way a manual gearbox and clutch, even in the hands of the best driver can make the changes as quick or as smooth. The only way you notice an up change in particular is the change in engine note. I sometimes use a double-click on the paddles to go from 5th to 3rd for a roundabout or tight corner having already dropped from 6th on the approach. All great fun and so easy to do especially on country roads.