Prawn and BigAls A3 Track Car

[Reesy]

I disagree. My M3 is the same power, whether or not the 'Sport' button is on or off. Pressing it just makes the throttle more responsive.

That's like saying why have a traction control button. It's personal preference as to whether you have it on or off.

Pretty sure the newer ones, and the m5, have a button for more power rather then just throttle response?

TCS and a button to give you a wallop more BHP are a bit different, but I kind of see your point. I just can't see why get a car with x bhp then drive it with less.

 

[Prawn]

Pretty similar to the 'M' sport button on the newer BMW's. I can't really see the point of it myself.

If you want a performance car, you want a performance car. Having a performance car when you push a button is a bit gay.

Thing is, with the exception of Bill, my 290bhp on actuator pressure will be more than enough to happily see off any other forum member around any track in the land

Having 350 available at the press of a button is purely a party piece, so when some smart **** 12 year old in an A3 estate says ''yes but mine's still quicker in a straight line'' I can show him up as well :end_of_discction:

 

[badger5]

Do you not agree that for a car that spends some of it's time on the road, a Quattro would be beneficial?! I can almost guarantee that when the Garrett is fitted to mine, I won't get 90mph wheel spins.

nope.
4wd has its benefits of course.. Traction being one of them. HOWEVER with it comes weight = enemy for a track car

The key word I use for the racecars I map, is "Tractable Power", particularly when fwd.

Prawnys no mug behind the wheel on track. I hear he's in fact rather handy behind the wheel

 

[superkarl]

the extra 100kg is outweighed by the power you can get down and the increased performance. surely.

 

[Reesy]

Thing is, with the exception of Bill, my 290bhp on actuator pressure will be more than enough to happily see off any other forum member around any track in the land

Having 350 available at the press of a button is purely a party piece, so when some smart **** 12 year old in an A3 estate says ''yes but mine's still quicker in a straight line'' I can show him up as well :end_of_discction:

I would hazard a guess that around somewhere like Daytona, your 290bhp A3 would be outdone by a fair few forum cars. (It's a track and it's in the land)

Besides you haven't really got 350 available, as the video you posted yesterday shows.. And I'm not 12, I'm 13.

 

[Reesy]

nope.
4wd has its benefits of course.. Traction being one of them. HOWEVER with it comes weight = enemy for a track car

The key word I use for the racecars I map, is "Tractable Power", particularly when fwd.

Prawnys no mug behind the wheel on track. I hear he's in fact rather handy behind the wheel

I can understand weight being the enemy, which is why it's a good job I weight just under 10 stone \o/

But I would hazard a guess that 350bhp is beyond the limits of tractable power in a fwd car, unless it's hot and bone dry?

 

[badger5]

303bhp/tonne on prawnies as is I think

S3/TT type 4wd machine would need 455bhp to equal the power to weight... and with all that extra weight comes a penalty in stopping it again, changing direction etc etc

 

[badger5]

But I would hazard a guess that 350bhp is beyond the limits of tractable power in a fwd car, unless it's hot and bone dry?

lol, nope.. your asking a man who races a high power fwd ibiza.. which has traction and way more power than mr prawn

 

[Prawn]

the extra 100kg is outweighed by the power you can get down and the increased performance. surely.

Not really SuperK, on a track you're very rarely ever going slower than 40mph even on the tightest circuits, and a well mapped FWD car will have no trouble getting the power down in the dry at all. I don't think I spun the wheels up at all lapping Combe, Rockingham, or the Ring in the dry with 300bhp, most of the time I felt I needed more power. 4wd wouldn't have helped at all as I wasn't struggling.

Why does nobody ever have a go at Bill for not having 4wd anyway, he has 600bhp, AND I have it on good authority he also uses a switch to lower his power output for racing

Lets be honest, it's all about show boating at the end of the day, isn't it?

 

[Welly]

303bhp/tonne on prawnies as is I think

S3/TT type 4wd machine would need 455bhp to equal the power to weight... and with all that extra weight comes a penalty in stopping it again, changing direction etc etc

It really is that simple.

And exactly the reason why I didn't go for a Quattro for a track car.

Yes, off the line there is more traction with Quattro. Thats where the benefits end.

(And I can say this having had a high power quattro for a while)

 

[badger5]

Do you not agree that for a car that spends some of it's time on the road, a Quattro would be beneficial?! I can almost guarantee that when the Garrett is fitted to mine, I won't get 90mph wheel spins.

With dry track tyre RS2's on the car in heavy waterlogged roads you will get 4WD slide, and that I can assure you is fecking scarey!
they were not the ideal tyre to be on in heavy wet weather..

 

[badger5]

Sorry to hijack and as I like graphs.

Here is the same setup, both running CF0 but the dotted line is what I'm currently running and the solid line was with 4 degrees less timing, you can see although it's predicted EGT from the lambda and not as accurate while both show CF0 there is upto 12 degrees more timing and 50 degress lower EGT for more advance...

Interesting possibly not, but goes to show how it can affect the running of the car.

nice graphs.

 

[badger5]

Thing is, with the exception of Bill, my 290bhp on actuator pressure will be more than enough to happily see off any other forum member around any track in the land

Having 350 available at the press of a button is purely a party piece, so when some smart **** 12 year old in an A3 estate says ''yes but mine's still quicker in a straight line'' I can show him up as well :end_of_discction:

we will have to share a track day with me in ickle lupo...
970kg
should be a good crack

 

[Broken Byzan]

Thing is, with the exception of Bill, my 290bhp on actuator pressure will be more than enough to happily see off any other forum member around any track in the land

Having 350 available at the press of a button is purely a party piece, so when some smart **** 12 year old in an A3 estate says ''yes but mine's still quicker in a straight line'' I can show him up as well :end_of_discction:

:end_of_discction:

 

[slepy]

I've been always mental about having quattro until I sold my A4 Q and went to leon with the same engine.
Sure, A4 had more grip but you could feel weight and was getting later out of corners (roundabouts) than leon.
Leon feels so much more alive to drive.
Obviously neither of the cars is 300+bhp but I can easily spin in 3rd on wet in leon.

 

[Andrew@A.L.D]

There you go people

Westfield-world Kitcar support Site - Power to Weight Calculator

 

[Prawn]

Leon feels so much more alive to drive.

This. x10

 

[s3dave]

FWD is not the ideal track car.. AWD or RWD... FTW... It really is a no Brainer guys....Not particulary on about the Haldex system, there is much better out there,,,But traction is your friend...torque steer is your enemy...

 

[Prawn]

I don't have any torque steer at all Dave, literally, none.

In the chassis we have, the 8L, I'd argue that FWD makes for a better track car every time. Having driven S3's on track the haldex system is nasty, unpredictable, and slow to react. they feel like a heavy fwd car with added downsides.

Unless that is, unless you're pretty slow anyway, in which case you won't get anywhere near the car's limits, and never realise how poor it is.

I'd like to see someone like Westy or Stacey make something proper from an S3 that could perform on track, I think with a haldex controller or similar they have the potential to be really good, but until that potential is realised, it's all hearsay.

Even reesy, the quattro kid, has bought himself a FWD track car.....

 

[Lewis583]

FWD is not the ideal track car.. AWD or RWD... FTW... It really is a no Brainer guys....Not particulary on about the Haldex system, there is much better out there,,,But traction is your friend...torque steer is your enemy...

Try telling the Honda Yuasa team and the MG KX Momentum racing team in BTCC. They managed to see off a RWD Audi and BMW adequately

 

[badger5]

There you go people

Westfield-world Kitcar support Site - Power to Weight Calculator

funny coincidence
thats what I dialed the numbers into posted earlier..
small world

 

[Prawn]

If it came down to building the 'best' track car, then of course, we may as well all do away with personality or imagination, and admit that we should all be building E36 M3's.

But that's not what we like is it? There's something very satisfying about going against the grain and coming out at the other end smiling.

Even welly, who's arguably one of the ring leaders in the whole 'big power S3' circle, has decided to go FWD when choosing to build a track car.

Still, even if I've got less traction, I've got more power than ANYONE else who's ever attempted to build a ko4 hybrid, so once I get traction, I'll overtake you anyway

Miserable bunch-O-gits

 

[badger5]

But traction is your friend...torque steer is your enemy...

not on all cars

badgerwagen - no torque steer

proper diff (plate in my instance) locked front wheels, no steer at all, just where you point it

there are no winners of the arguement, not that it will stop it continuing... we all have our opinions..
I live in both camps.. and love my "proper" quattro, always have
I race a fwd car... Different things for different uses's

 

[S3 Paul]

Well, Will you need a new helmet for your now swelling head?
I myself thought about a A3 as a ragger. 1 reason. Cheaper, that was it
My S3 has a haldex upgrade, Transforms the car, Have you pushed an S3 fitted with one hard? i have, soo much safer and predictable,

 

[v5 tt]

Really nice write up on your mapping session :icon_thumright: Great figures achieved i remember when people
said how far fetched the old turbo dynamics 340 -360bhp was for a k04 hybrid how things are
moving on im really looking forward to my hybrid build even more now seeing whats capable

Iv sent Dan a Brand new k04 for hybrid work i went for the 2283 compressor ...
so Dan what ever porting on the hotside you did on his just do a little bit more
on mine

 

[badger5]

Still, even if I've got less traction, I've got more power than ANYONE else who's ever attempted to build a ko4 hybrid, so once I get traction, I'll overtake you anyway

waits for the bite

 

[S3 Paul]

Cold early morning blast out on some local B roads, which would i take??

 

[Broken Byzan]

If it came down to building the 'best' track car, then of course, we may as well all do away with personality or imagination, and admit that we should all be building E36 M3's.

But that's not what we like is it? There's something very satisfying about going against the grain and coming out at the other end smiling.

Even welly, who's arguably one of the ring leaders in the whole 'big power S3' circle, has decided to go FWD when choosing to build a track car.

Still, even if I've got less traction, I've got more power than ANYONE else who's ever attempted to build a ko4 hybrid, so once I get traction, I'll overtake you anyway

Miserable bunch-O-gits

TBH cost comes into it a 2wd car and assosiated parts to setup the chassis are cheaper than the quattro equivelents . TBH it's all for fun so a light chuckable car is what you want. I like my quattro, but still love what you guys are achieveing with these golf chassied cars. FUN FUN FUN

 

[badger5]

My S3 has a haldex upgrade, Transforms the car, Have you pushed an S3 fitted with one hard? i have, soo much safer and predictable,

good to know.
now all you need is 460bhp and you will equal prawns power to weight

 

[badger5]

Really nice write up on your mapping session :icon_thumright: Great figures achieved i remember when people
said how far fetched the old turbo dynamics 340 -360bhp was for a k04 hybrid how things are
moving on im really looking forward to my hybrid build even more now seeing whats capable

At the time, those numbers were BS, and the TD spec is unclipped turbine
only things like 80mm intakes, ported hotsides, not as supplied, relentless manifolds, water methanol +decent mapping have they got close to realising their comp wheel spec power "claims". NONE of this is thanks to any of the turbo remanufacturers.... They were happy selling these as 340-360bhp units regardless of all the other associated parts required.. lol

Having been involved in the evolution of this spec of a hybrid to get it actually working - I can say its been hard work and many many hours evolving the things....

 

[S3 Paul]

With pockets as deep and a contacts collection the same as his... i might even try.
If i raced my car rather than took kids out in it at weekend i might even care,
I span my last FWD car when the back stepped out. Sole reason i bought S3
Im expecting the crap about " you just couldnt drive it right if you rolled it " S3 with controller feels alot safer on the road... where it spends 99.9% of its time.

 

[Broken Byzan]

waits for the bite

-the 10HP difference between yours an Niki's rollers that makes this -1 HP on Welly doesn't it???

 

[S3 Paul]

At the time, those numbers were BS, and the TD spec is unclipped turbine
only things like 80mm intakes, ported hotsides, not as supplied, relentless manifolds, water methanol +decent mapping have they got close to realising their comp wheel spec power "claims". NONE of this is thanks to any of the turbo remanufacturers.... They were happy selling these as 340-360bhp units regardless of all the other associated parts required.. lol

Having been involved in the evolution of this spec of a hybrid to get it actually working - I can say its been hard work and many many hours evolving the things....

Ive always said when you here somebody say" that turbo is good for XYZ bhp"
Doesnt that all depend what its bolted to?
Clearly YES is the answer,

 

[badger5]

With pockets as deep and a contacts collection the same as his... i might even try.
If i raced my car rather than took kids out in it at weekend i might even care,
I span my last FWD car when the back stepped out. Sole reason i bought S3
Im expecting the crap about " you just couldnt drive it right if you rolled it " S3 with controller feels alot safer on the road... where it spends 99.9% of its time.

DING!
and prawnies car is built as a track car....

he has a daily

tool for the job

 

[s33nyboy12]

Is there not a half decent LSD available for the a3 track cars in question here.....? Made a big difference on an old civic build of mine!

 

[badger5]

-the 10HP difference between yours an Niki's rollers that makes this -1 HP on Welly doesn't it???

innit

 

[superkarl]

its a good discussion, and it hasnt gotten too silly yet lol.

i think the whole power to weight ratio argument is highly exaggerated, and is definately 'pub talk'. there are many cars out there, with seemingly incomparible power to weight ratios and the outcome would be very suprising. you cant base an argument on power to weight. For in gear acceleration in a straight line, perhaps, but it doesnt always prevail.

my thinking is (scenario in my head), lets say we have a fwd 350hp car in a corner, now there is only so fast a car goes round a corner, maybe slight difference between fwd and 4wd, but the apex speed will ultimately come down to chassis spec and setup rather than which wheel drive it is, anyway. Now lets say a 4wd 350hp car, maybe 100kg heavier, very similar chassis spec and setup is in the same corner, similar speed.... are you guys telling me the 4wd varient couldnt 1.accelerate sooner out of that corner, and 2.accelerate harder giving it a slight edge out of a corner? literally, point, plant, go, all 350hp deployed asap.

now i know you're going to mention power to weight, and the fwd will catch and overtake. but will it really, or will the 4wd have the edge ever so much, that once they are both doing similar speeds, lets say 3 figures, aerodynamics becomes the over coming factor, making weight meaningless, so the fwd doesnt catch up, or overtake.

all theoretical i know. But there HAS to be a point where the benefits of 4wd or rwd are worth it.

and whoever mentioned BTCC cars, they are power restricted to 300hp, have thousands of pounds of R&D spent on the car, have lsds, slicks, and fully tested aero mods. so hardly an argument

 

[Prawn]

With pockets as deep and a contacts collection the same as his... i might even try.

Pockets are not as deep as you might think, this entire car has been built for as little as possible, it's a second hand turbo, specced up with mainly ebay parts, almost all the suspension was second hand, the only items bought brand new have been the safety critical things like the cage and seats and belts.

I'd bet this entire build cost less than half what JBS would charge for a drive in drive out ''JBS05'' conversion like yours Paul.

The key to keeping cost down is in doing as much as humanly possible yourself

 

[v5 tt]

At the time, those numbers were BS, and the TD spec is unclipped turbine
only things like 80mm intakes, ported hotsides, not as supplied, relentless manifolds, water methanol +decent mapping have they got close to realising their comp wheel spec power "claims". NONE of this is thanks to any of the turbo remanufacturers.... They were happy selling these as 340-360bhp units regardless of all the other associated parts required.. lol

Having been involved in the evolution of this spec of a hybrid to get it actually working - I can say its been hard work and many many hours evolving the things....

Having read through a fair few hybrid threads and builds you have been in most of them top work :icon_thumright:
the spec of my build will be pretty similar here but i will be blowing this through TSR,s mani
i think the runners look a fair bit longer then the relentless will be interesting to see how it
compares

 

[S3 Paul]

The S3 is my daily,
Yes more would be better, But it does what it needs to. WHen it warms up and i want to blow away the cobwebs i use my mk2 golf.
Hats off to him and the people involved in the car. But... might be fishing but the big head "i will destroy anything bar Bill" kind of means im not such a Fan now