Hybrid K04 R&D

std vvt setpoints on that log dan?

compressed air psi will be consistent... equally as hot, but a compressor wheel which is still well inside its efficiency island will be blowing cooler air for the mass airflow pumped..

seeing where this surge line is will be interesting... given its usually 3500-4200rpm on hybrids and this is getting going that little bit later anyhow, it might yet skirt on the edge of what the engine wants to gulp >4krpm

looking good so far dan.
 
Have you got the N75 duty cycles graphed as well? I would think you're very low towards the top end. And with all that headroom with the compressor wheel you need to be shopping for water-meth. Otherwise EGTs are going to be a barrier.
 
Looks good Dan, I haven't been on ASN for a while and it looks like I have missed your R&D work!!! Nice one
 
badger5 said:
std vvt setpoints on that log dan?

compressed air psi will be consistent... equally as hot, but a compressor wheel which is still well inside its efficiency island will be blowing cooler air for the mass airflow pumped..

seeing where this surge line is will be interesting... given its usually 3500-4200rpm on hybrids and this is getting going that little bit later anyhow, it might yet skirt on the edge of what the engine wants to gulp >4krpm

looking good so far dan.
Click to expand...
yes
Bill Vvt still stock.

so ran some 20psi runs last night. First ones where a disaster. I tried to be clever and change a few things at once and ended up running lean so quickly stopped and went back to the 15psi map and fettled a few maps at a time to run 20psi.
Ill get some logs up later but it made 276grams on the maf at 7200rpm. Egt peaked at 940c although my egt gauge is over reading 20degrees at the moment .

thus far no sign of surge either which is good news.
Only issue is that my DV is blowing open , I know this as occasionally I get a complete dump of air, sounds like a boost pipe blowing off! Then the boost wobbles for a bit then all is well. There is always the possibility that the compressor has stalled but it just feels too dramatic for that. Still only got 1 cf of 3 @ 6750 so room for more timing.

early impressions, well once its going .. It goes but I'm not sure I like the extra lag, while its still perfectly drivable the thing I loved about the 2283 hybrid was the power low down was immense,
 
So 345bhp yhen accordig to those g/s! What figures do you think this can make then dan once youve tweaked more with timing etc? Also are you running wmi?
 
Dani_B19 said:
So 345bhp yhen accordig to those g/s! What figures do you think this can make then dan once youve tweaked more with timing etc? Also are you running wmi?
Click to expand...

no WMI.. Not planning either as want to get a true hybrid figure for now.

my plan is to run 23psi so what ever that holds... When I spoke to Nick (prawn) I said 350 was the target but to be honest didn't think I would get close to it as there was so many unknowns in the turbo... Biggest issue is EGTs...
 
That some good figures then mate without wmi.

what spec is the engine at the minute?
 
beachbuggy said:
...early impressions, well once its going .. It goes but I'm not sure I like the extra lag, while its still perfectly drivable the thing I loved about the 2283 hybrid was the power low down was immense...
Click to expand...

Dan -- going into this you knew there'd be a considerable penalty in the low engine speed range. But this experiment still has the potential for smashing people's perceptions about the turbine side of these K04-derived turbos. It is already an achievement to reach over 270 g/s on a NON water meth car. I've never seen that before (although I do remember Welly posting 4th gear logs that matched your figure). But I should think your larger compressor wheel could touch the 290s.
 
slappy_dunbar said:

Dan -- going into this you knew there'd be a considerable penalty in the low engine speed range. But this experiment still has the potential for smashing people's perceptions about the turbine side of these K04-derived turbos. It is already an achievement to reach over 270 g/s on a NON water meth car. I've never seen that before (although I do remember Welly posting 4th gear logs that matched your figure). But I should think your larger compressor wheel could touch the 290s.
Click to expand...
Have to agree with you . If I'm going to be honest at the moment id have to say I much prefer my old 2283 hybrid for shear drivability v this which while its early days doesn't "do it" for me till 5k then it makes me smile. If and its a big IF , it can run 290 then its probably a sensible upgrade to the 2283 otherwise just for driving experience you'd have to say a well tuned 320 hybrid is better or go gt28r . I just have to question whether making a k04 turbine take 280-290grams at the expense of low down performance has any benefit... Other than its bolt on...
 
did you stop the ign adv from being "intervened"
which maps did you use..
I keep reading more yet different maps to this effect...
 
slappy_dunbar said:

Dan -- going into this you knew there'd be a considerable penalty in the low engine speed range. But this experiment still has the potential for smashing people's perceptions about the turbine side of these K04-derived turbos. It is already an achievement to reach over 270 g/s on a NON water meth car. I've never seen that before (although I do remember Welly posting 4th gear logs that matched your figure). But I should think your larger compressor wheel could touch the 290s.
Click to expand...

275.83g/s @ 5960rpm on speedy steve's s3 back in 2010.. 2283 no clip
no wmi
 
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v2timing.png


This is from the 20psi run, I'm not seeing any load intervention so not sure if this is normal or not. This is with the TAnsmn, Tmsmn,CWMDKOL,CWMDAPP, KFMIZUOF adjusted..
 
badger5 said:
275.83g/s @ 5960rpm on speedy steve's s3 back in 2010.. 2283 no clip
no wmi
Click to expand...

Unmolested MAF housing? No "descreen" at work? Regardless, Dan's turbo is headed towards the K04 history books. I am certain he's bound for the highest airflow record on stock displacement. And here's the number to beat:

F23_stock-displacement-airflows.jpg




As for that timing curve...YECHHH! You're definitely getting torque intervention.


 
v2load.png


On second looks I am hitting torque intervention, Load is being capped at 191 hence the timing.. back to the drawing board on that...

v2maf.png


COmparing this to the log you put up Doug, at 4250rpm your log is hovering around 180grams whilst I'm still at 110! I think it definately shows this needs alot more to get going...
 
Well, let's stay focused on the zone where "big turbo" guys think they're king: FATs. I reckon that inchoate contraption of yours might be able to crack the 3 second mark. I haven't been able to. My best is this:

FATs-Rev14.jpg


Are you game to try?
 
Interesting on the lag Dan, mines comparable to dougs, seeing ~170g/s around 4250rpm at 1 bar.

Really fancy a ride in this to see how it compares :)
 
So hit 2 brick walls.

1st my DVD is leaking like the titanic! I can blow through it! It's an Awesome jobby, that doesn't seal. Also it has a funny lip on it which catches and leaves it open even wider when it dumps air! Ie doesn't sit right.

Secondly, I can't get above 191 load. I'm using me7 logger that should read above 191 unlike vagcom but now I'm starting to wonder. Either that or torque monitoring is kicking in. Either way I'm stuck for the time being at 276grams.
 
beachbuggy said:
1st my DVD is leaking like the titanic!

Either way I'm stuck for the time being at 276grams.
Click to expand...

*oh noes, I'm stuck at an indicated 345bhp, how will I cope :laugh: *

Somebody send this man a DV before sunday so he can come to the RR day.

Dan: do you think the lag you've been experiencing could be partly down to the sticking DV?
 
Prawn said:
*oh noes, I'm stuck at an indicated 345bhp, how will I cope :laugh: *

Somebody send this man a DV before sunday so he can come to the RR day.

Dan: do you think the lag you've been experiencing could be partly down to the sticking DV?
Click to expand...
potentially yes. Going to fit a stock one tomorrow and then pressure test the system... If that holds at least 25psi then I'll be happy . Itll explain why I'm running at 95 waste gate dc just to hold 21psi.

on another note. My 225 TT fuel pump I fitted the other night is goosed. I struggled to hold 14.7 afr on boost at 95 Dc on the injectors. Fitted the original pump back and it's perfect.. 11-12 Afr on boost.
 
I have an LCR pump here, but I think it's different to the 4wd pumps isn't it?

if your stock one is working then happy days :)
 
So I reseated the DV and I'm back up to speed, its still leaking though but now its not leaking everything! Tried a few different maps tonight and still at 276grams.

more interestingly though, for some! On my old hybrid if I floored it in 3rd at 3k and didn't keep the boost in control the thing surged like a beast at around 21psi! This thing I can do the same at 3k in 3rd and it will boost to 25psi by 3.5k and not a whiff of surge..

More more interestingly ... If I go WOT in 3rd from near idle to redline then I don't get 20psi boost till near 5k. Part throttle @ 3k to WOT it goes to 21psi by 3.5k... I must have missed something here...new learning curve..

my EGTs are peaking @ 960 at 23 psi at redline on my gauge, although the protection is set stock for 919 yet I'm not tripping to .75 so not sure what to believe.
 
Prawn said:
I have an LCR pump here, but I think it's different to the 4wd pumps isn't it?

if your stock one is working then happy days :)
Click to expand...

LCR one won't have the additional pick up that the 4motion ones do for the bigger tank.
 
beachbuggy said:
More more interestingly ... If I go WOT in 3rd from near idle to redline then I don't get 20psi boost till near 5k. Part throttle @ 3k to WOT it goes to 21psi by 3.5k... I must have missed something here...new learning curve..
Click to expand...

my ko3S and ko4 hybrid have both been like this Dan, floored from 1500rpm to redline they would never peak as high as if you go part throttle gently to 3k then floor it. no idea why but the car has always felt better letting the revs built past 3k then opening it up, even though the turbo will spool sooner
 
Prawn said:
my ko3S and ko4 hybrid have both been like this Dan, floored from 1500rpm to redline they would never peak as high as if you go part throttle gently to 3k then floor it. no idea why but the car has always felt better letting the revs built past 3k then opening it up, even though the turbo will spool sooner
Click to expand...

I get this with the a3 as well, car seems to go alot better when building the revs up, before planting it
 
slappy_dunbar said:

Unmolested MAF housing? No "descreen" at work? Regardless, Dan's turbo is headed towards the K04 history books. I am certain he's bound for the highest airflow record on stock displacement. And here's the number to beat:

F23_stock-displacement-airflows.jpg




As for that timing curve...YECHHH! You're definitely getting torque intervention.


Click to expand...

yep, boggo stock MAF housing. B5 TIP, JR filter, 2283 hybrid + mapping.. Stock k04 exhaust manifold
 
beachbuggy said:
So I reseated the DV and I'm back up to speed, its still leaking though but now its not leaking everything! Tried a few different maps tonight and still at 276grams.

more interestingly though, for some! On my old hybrid if I floored it in 3rd at 3k and didn't keep the boost in control the thing surged like a beast at around 21psi! This thing I can do the same at 3k in 3rd and it will boost to 25psi by 3.5k and not a whiff of surge..

More more interestingly ... If I go WOT in 3rd from near idle to redline then I don't get 20psi boost till near 5k. Part throttle @ 3k to WOT it goes to 21psi by 3.5k... I must have missed something here...new learning curve..

my EGTs are peaking @ 960 at 23 psi at redline on my gauge, although the protection is set stock for 919 yet I'm not tripping to .75 so not sure what to believe.
Click to expand...
what do you have KFWDKSMX set to? On bigger turbos I allow the throttle 100% open from lower rpm..
 
slappy_dunbar said:
v3maf.png
3You're getting to the point where you might want to consider a slight increase in MAF housing size. I use the 73mm ID housing from the B5-series S4s. But I'm pretty sure the European-spec R32 also had a MAF in that dimension.
Click to expand...

He's getting close... 292g/s max on MLHFM for maf voltage of 4.9902v on stock 225 80mm OD maf housing
Tufftys on an S4 housing now
 
beachbuggy said:
So hit 2 brick walls.

1st my DVD is leaking like the titanic! I can blow through it! It's an Awesome jobby, that doesn't seal. Also it has a funny lip on it which catches and leaves it open even wider when it dumps air! Ie doesn't sit right.

Secondly, I can't get above 191 load. I'm using me7 logger that should read above 191 unlike vagcom but now I'm starting to wonder. Either that or torque monitoring is kicking in. Either way I'm stuck for the time being at 276grams.
Click to expand...

Stock DV... holds 2bar easy Zero leaks... unlike so many aftermarket ones
 
badger5 said:
what do you have KFWDKSMX set to? On bigger turbos I allow the throttle 100% open from lower rpm..
Click to expand...

I put this up to 100% from 1750rpm before, but then had the DV issues, so reverted back to stock. I tried again last night but another pipe off:) so didn't get a full log but I Definately think it spooled earlier. Still getting torque intervention, tried cwmdapp set to 1 with the other maps but it just sent idle haywire.

I realised also last night that mlmax was still stock at 680 so have raised that to 1080 as I'm still being limited somewhere. Load is following corrected load, and I can't find any hard information what limits corrected/requested load.

As for the maf max @ 292grams I never thought I'd get anywhere near close and if I start knocking at 292grams I think if stop there anyway:)
 
badger5 said:
Stock DV... holds 2bar easy Zero leaks... unlike so many aftermarket ones
Click to expand...

And thanks to Tuffty telling me this at ADI i didnt waste my money on something shiny when a standard one costs me £20.
 
Whilst it's not directly relative to your thread, has anyone else seen Niki got 352bhp from a ko4 hybrid today?

Only for a single power run, he said it was running too hot to sustain it, but interesting all the same and shows the hotside 'could' flow those kind of figures.

he reckons it'll end up around a safe 330bhp with WMI, but still interesting in terms of peak numbers seen.
 
Prawn said:
Whilst it's not directly relative to your thread, has anyone else seen Niki got 352bhp from a ko4 hybrid today?

Only for a single power run, he said it was running too hot to sustain it, but interesting all the same and shows the hotside 'could' flow those kind of figures.

he reckons it'll end up around a safe 330bhp with WMI, but still interesting in terms of peak numbers seen.
Click to expand...
whats the full spec of the motor dude?
 
Hello, whats up with the 275 - 276 g/s limit?? Speedy Steve has had it, Dan is seeing it currently, I am currently seeing it before and after fitting a homebrew large port manifold?? Bit strange that they are all this exact value, just a thought
 
286grams @ 5865rpm..then esp kicked in..
excuse the bad logs , it was a rainy evening and busier than usual road so couldn't get a good run.

I replaced the DV with a stock one, ( very impressed with it at 23psi!) replaced the N75 as I think it wasn't helping with the wastegate..leak checked it and all good.

Then put on a revised map, with Mlmax raised from 680kg/hour to 1080kg/hour, which is a MAF limit map, how that relates to the 276 seen more often than not I'm not sure but whether it was that or I was leaking it's a different beast to drive, still a little laggy but quick as hell, and still NO SURGE even at 23psi below 4750rpm..


v3maf-1.png
 
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So who do i make my cheque out to then for one of these? :) haha.
 
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